Should the Stocksbridge Line be saved now for passenger use, before it is too late?

[geoffk]

Problem is a high quality bus services need high quality infrastructure to be attractive. Decent stop infrastructure, rights of way separated from general traffic and high quality vehicles. I believe the route from Stocksbridge to Sheffield is pretty congested so being separated from traffic is particularly important. If bus services are done properly with an aim to attract people out of cars, it needs £10s million if not into the £100s millions. That might be cheaper than a tram or rail line but it's not significantly cheaper particularly when that rail line already exists in some form.

Also there is the perception in Britain that bus use (outside London) has a stigma attached to it unless you are a pensioner, student or young mother. Why is this? It doesn't seem to apply anywhere else in Europe. It's always been much easier to persuade car drivers to switch to trains or trams. Getting off topic so maybe worth a separate thread.

 

[zwk500]

Also there is the perception in Britain that bus use (outside London) has a stigma attached to it unless you are a pensioner, student or young mother. Why is this? It doesn't seem to apply anywhere else in Europe. It's always been much easier to persuade car drivers to switch to trains or trams. Getting off topic so maybe worth a separate thread.

AIUI it's generally held to stem from Mrs Thatcher, who made a comment along the lines of anybody who found themselves riding a bus at the age of 25 can regard themselves as a failure. It's unclear if she ever actually made any such statement, or even something with that meaning, let alone whether or not the stigma of buses existed prior to her premiership.

 

[Meerkat]

Problem is a high quality bus services need high quality infrastructure to be attractive. Decent stop infrastructure, rights of way separated from general traffic and high quality vehicles. I believe the route from Stocksbridge to Sheffield is pretty congested so being separated from traffic is particularly important. If bus services are done properly with an aim to attract people out of cars, it needs £10s million if not into the £100s millions. That might be cheaper than a tram or rail line but it's not significantly cheaper particularly when that rail line already exists in some form.

How congested is the road up to the end of the tram at Middlewood? Buses generally dont need their own rights of way, just priority, and bus stops in the road so they don't have to pull out.

 

[tbtc]

with respect, I think you are struggling to find the problem for which you have a solution

I think you are correct in your summary

As you point out things have changed since the last thread, hence why I thought it okay to start another in the wake of the withdrawal of freight services solving all capacity constraints, removing that counter argument

The freight was generally just one a day, going up the valley after 18:00 and coming back down late in the evening, AIUI, so the freight volumes wouldn’t have been a deal breaker IMHO (Just an issue for whether a tram would be allowed or a tram-train)

As I've already said in reply to @BrianB , the population of Stocksbridge is used to walking up and down hills to get to public transport or the amenities, so it's not new and it's not seen as a problem by many

I don’t think that this is going to tempt many people out of their cars - you’re asking people to endure a long walk a long way from the heart of the city to Victoria and then endure some pretty significant gradients once back in Stocksbridge

I don't agree that Victoria is a long way from anywhere, it's no worse positioned than Sheffield Midland

The suboptimal location of Midland doesn’t justify an even worse location for a second station

I don't think it's a problem that needs any solving, we're fortunate to be in a position where a line already exists but has no traffic in a continuously populated, traffic-heavy area linking places of residence, business and culture. Build a few cheap stations and they will come!

This is what frustrates me with Stocksbridge… there is a clear problem to solve (the conga-like procession of vehicles on the A6102, the town seems a good distance out of the city in terms of commuting)… but I can’t see what a feasible solution looks like (given the failure of the feeder buses to Middlewood)… It’s not Crayonista territory (like the various schemes proposed where there’s not enough passengers to sustain any commercial bus services) but the geography makes it very hard to “solve”

If the hillside is the problem (it is for some but not all) then it may soon be mitigated, according to a local politician there will soon be a "clipper" style bus service linking the estates with the amenities in the valley bottom has been funded.

View attachment 129959

oh how i love how local politicians jump on to something as if they have just discovered something entirely new. Stocksbridge and Deepcar had a local clipper bus service for well over 40 years, running from Deepcar, up the hills, around the estates, through Bolsterstone, around more estates, down to Stocksbridge centre, then rinse and repeat. I dont know exactly when it ceased, sometime in the last 10 years i think, but even now the Sheffield bus detours part of that way

It’s always been a tough place for buses (especially in winter!) - the long established service pattern for Sheffield services (early 1980s into the millennium) was a half hourly 57 along the bottom of the valley and the half hourly X66/X67 which looped round East Whitwell before coming down to the town centre (and the bi-hourly versions of the X67 allowing it to penetrate various different bits of housing estate)… The First 57/58 changed things so that East Whitwell buses went via the town centre and Manchester Road rather than Carr Road… the Supertram feeder service was a ten minute circle in one direction only before being changed into clockwise and anti-clockwise versions… but there’s no easy way to provide a good service from each suburban area into both the town centre and the city centre and also a reasonable service from central Stocksbridge to central Sheffield especially as Fox Valley is on the wrong side of the Town Centre for buses to easily serve (e.g. look at the current awkward compromise we here Unsliven Bridge/ Garden Village buses only get as far as Hole House Lane before taking a long detour to the of the hill and back down again before getting anywhere near Fox Valley)

It's also near to Kelham Island (a flat walk), which is an up and coming trendy social and residential area. It's not like that side of the town is a lifeless desert as people are making out here

I’d recommend a night out in Kelham, but it’s an awkward distance from Victoria for them both to have stations, and I don’t think a stop on an hourly Stocksbridge train will make much difference to the suburb

It's not like I've just found a random line in the middle of nowhere and said lets run trains on it for the laugh. It's very similar to the lines in The Valleys of Wales, or the Glossop/New Mills branches on the edge of Greater Manchester

One big difference being that those places have trains into the main termini - I doubt the Ebbw Vale line would have been as successful if passengers were dumped a mile out of the city centre

Meanwhile, in Manchester, there are proposals to convert the Glossop line to trams to better penetrate the city centre (despite it already serving Piccadilly)

population statistics aren't all that useful as it wouldn't include anyone who railheads

True but what population is there north/ west of Stocksbridge who’d railhead there?

You’ll cannibalise a few passengers from Penistone, maybe, but there’s a lot of empty countryside until you get to Holmfirth (and note how poor buses are in the Flouch area - Holmfirth people will always gravitate to Huddersfield)

I've just found this from the Mayors office:

I think it might have been reported on here since this update was posted that funding for this was rejected however, can anyone clarify this? It does look like the idea was taken seriously, as vaguely feasible and the potential for journey time improvement understood, which is more than on here

News - South Yorkshire MCA

South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority works together to unlock the potential of our people, businesses & places. SYMCA ensuring they prosper through shared purpose to create stronger, greener, fairer South Yorkshire.

southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk

This is exactly the kind of weak project that Mayors need to be seen to give lip service to

It doesn’t mean there’s a good case or that it’ll happen, just that any Mayor not seen to be supporting this kind of project is giving ammunition to political opponents

Why not?

It doesn't have to be a simple, sad affair, I've just suggested that to keep it cheap and therefore viable in my opinion. But, there's nothing to stop you getting creative; you could terminate Worksop services there too or even run them through to Stocksbridge

I’ll repeat myself but… people on here want to spend megabucks on bridging gaps in cities like Bradford but creating a new gap appears to be acceptable in Sheffield (bad news for Lincoln passengers wanting to access Manchester etc, i guess)

The RYR fund is a great place for local politicians to park their support for crayoning - looks like you are supporting it, costs very little, someone else's fault when it gets refused

That’s a depressing accurate way of defining it!

 

[Meerkat]

Also there is the perception in Britain that bus use (outside London) has a stigma attached to it unless you are a pensioner, student or young mother. Why is this? It doesn't seem to apply anywhere else in Europe. It's always been much easier to persuade car drivers to switch to trains or trams. Getting off topic so maybe worth a separate thread.

Its circular - its seen like that because buses outside of London ARE full of a lot of old people and the clearly less wealthy (to be polite). Outside of London they are competing with the car - which makes them noisy, slow, uncomfortable, hot/cold and bumpy/lurchy.

 

[RobShipway]

I think you are correct in your summary



The freight was generally just one a day, going up the valley after 18:00 and coming back down late in the evening, AIUI, so the freight volumes wouldn’t have been a deal breaker IMHO (Just an issue for whether a tram would be allowed or a tram-train)



I don’t think that this is going to tempt many people out of their cars - you’re asking people to endure a long walk a long way from the heart of the city to Victoria and then endure some pretty significant gradients once back in Stocksbridge



The suboptimal location of Midland doesn’t justify an even worse location for a second station



This is what frustrates me with Stocksbridge… there is a clear problem to solve (the conga-like procession of vehicles on the A6102, the town seems a good distance out of the city in terms of commuting)… but I can’t see what a feasible solution looks like (given the failure of the feeder buses to Middlewood)… It’s not Crayonista territory (like the various schemes proposed where there’s not enough passengers to sustain any commercial bus services) but the geography makes it very hard to “solve”





It’s always been a tough place for buses (especially in winter!) - the long established service pattern for Sheffield services (early 1980s into the millennium) was a half hourly 57 along the bottom of the valley and the half hourly X66/X67 which looped round East Whitwell before coming down to the town centre (and the bi-hourly versions of the X67 allowing it to penetrate various different bits of housing estate)… The First 57/58 changed things so that East Whitwell buses went via the town centre and Manchester Road rather than Carr Road… the Supertram feeder service was a ten minute circle in one direction only before being changed into clockwise and anti-clockwise versions… but there’s no easy way to provide a good service from each suburban area into both the town centre and the city centre and also a reasonable service from central Stocksbridge to central Sheffield especially as Fox Valley is on the wrong side of the Town Centre for buses to easily serve (e.g. look at the current awkward compromise we here Unsliven Bridge/ Garden Village buses only get as far as Hole House Lane before taking a long detour to the of the hill and back down again before getting anywhere near Fox Valley)




I’d recommend a night out in Kelham, but it’s an awkward distance from Victoria for them both to have stations, and I don’t think a stop on an hourly Stocksbridge train will make much difference to the suburb



One big difference being that those places have trains into the main termini - I doubt the Ebbw Vale line would have been as successful if passengers were dumped a mile out of the city centre

Meanwhile, in Manchester, there are proposals to convert the Glossop line to trams to better penetrate the city centre (despite it already serving Piccadilly)



True but what population is there north/ west of Stocksbridge who’d railhead there?

You’ll cannibalise a few passengers from Penistone, maybe, but there’s a lot of empty countryside until you get to Holmfirth (and note how poor buses are in the Flouch area - Holmfirth people will always gravitate to Huddersfield)




This is exactly the kind of weak project that Mayors need to be seen to give lip service to

It doesn’t mean there’s a good case or that it’ll happen, just that any Mayor not seen to be supporting this kind of project is giving ammunition to political opponents



I’ll repeat myself but… people on here want to spend megabucks on bridging gaps in cities like Bradford but creating a new gap appears to be acceptable in Sheffield (bad news for Lincoln passengers wanting to access Manchester etc, i guess)



That’s a depressing accurate way of defining it!

Its circular - its seen like that because buses outside of London ARE full of a lot of old people and the clearly less wealthy (to be polite). Outside of London they are competing with the car - which makes them noisy, slow, uncomfortable, hot/cold and bumpy/lurchy.

If the line is going to be used, it really needs to be a park and ride scheme that can take the cars off the roads. If the money was there, which I doubt that it is, I think it would be a good route for the class 399 train - tram units. But the issue will be the cost of the Infrastructure to be built on the route as that is likely to be in the millions. But how many passengers would you get on that route and where outside on the route would you make the main park and ride place for people to park their cars? Also, within the park and ride car park would you include electric charging points?

 

[Grimsby town]

How congested is the road up to the end of the tram at Middlewood? Buses generally dont need their own rights of way, just priority, and bus stops in the road so they don't have to pull out.

Google gives the average journey of between 22 minutes and 40 minutes at peak times. Taking the middle of that range suggests an average speed of around 4mph. Even at the current relatively low line speeds rail would likely be competitive door to door from Stocksbridge to Sheffield City Centre.

 

[rapmastaj]

This is the kind of scheme where a tram would be infinitely more useful than a DMU. The tram will be more frequent, it will take you direct to the city centre, it will serve various other places along the way such as Hillsborough and the University, and for the icing on the cake a tram will even reach Midland station easier than a train would.

Fingers crossed a connection across the valley from Middlewood can be built without breaking the bank.

 

[Meerkat]

This is the kind of scheme where a tram would be infinitely more useful than a DMU. The tram will be more frequent, it will take you direct to the city centre, it will serve various other places along the way such as Hillsborough and the University, and for the icing on the cake a tram will even reach Midland station easier than a train would.

Fingers crossed a connection across the valley from Middlewood can be built without breaking the bank.

The team will cost a lot more to set up and does that few people justify a frequent tram service?

 

[Killingworth]

This is the kind of scheme where a tram would be infinitely more useful than a DMU. The tram will be more frequent, it will take you direct to the city centre, it will serve various other places along the way such as Hillsborough and the University, and for the icing on the cake a tram will even reach Midland station easier than a train would.

Fingers crossed a connection across the valley from Middlewood can be built without breaking the bank.

The geography for that would be challenging but I'd agree the tram would provide a better way into the city. If only it hadn't been built to run up a big loop to the University at the top of West Street/Glossop Road and back down again to Shalesmoor.

Looking at the maps of congested, hilly Sheffield city centre it's hard to see easy ways to thread rails through. Now if tunnelling were allowed there could be solutions, like the Liverpool Wirral loop and Tyne & Wear Metro.

 

[rapmastaj]

The team will cost a lot more to set up and does that few people justify a frequent tram service?

I don't know the costings but it's a decent sized town and reducing car dependency is pretty vital, so I'll say its worth arguing for.

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is exactly the kind of weak project that Mayors need to be seen to give lip service to

It doesn’t mean there’s a good case or that it’ll happen, just that any Mayor not seen to be supporting this kind of project is giving ammunition to political opponents

Exactly. Politicians will support, usually in principle as opposed to any real tangible support, any scheme they believe that by supporting it will make locals think they care about them. It doesn't matter how nuts the scheme is they will back it. I'm surprised people need that spelling out to them because how often have people heard a politician say 'this idea is stupid and anybody who supports it is an idiot', even when the idea clearly is stupid? It wouldn't exactly endear them to voters.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Besides the tram-train recent introduction in the Sheffield area, what was the last tram line constructed and in what year did that occur.

Is there any current plan to extend the tram system?

 

[mike57]

Fingers crossed a connection across the valley from Middlewood can be built without breaking the bank.

Would it not be simpler to put a curve in to the east Park Square, deviating off the current route just before the Hyde Park stop, in an arc joining the current alignment east of Victoria station site, then reuse the whole alignment with the next stop at Kelham Island after a stop at Victoria/Wicker. It looks like you would need about 300m of new alignment and I dont think there is much in the way other than some car parks and a couple of access roads which would be crossed on the level, although it would need to be raised on a viaduct over a significant portion. This would then create a new NW branch. Maybe add a turn back at Cathedral or Midland station to regulate frequency on the existing branches.

The problem is that most of habitation/activity seems to be on the other side of the river Don so I am not sure how you would link in to that without deviating off the rail route, and that will start to get expensive

 

[Meerkat]

Google gives the average journey of between 22 minutes and 40 minutes at peak times. Taking the middle of that range suggests an average speed of around 4mph. Even at the current relatively low line speeds rail would likely be competitive door to door from Stocksbridge to Sheffield City Centre.

What journey did you try? I just tried (at 8:35am) Deepcar to Middlewood and Google reckoned it would take 12 mins.

 

[Bryson]

What journey did you try? I just tried (at 8:35am) Deepcar to Middlewood and Google reckoned it would take 12 mins.

The latest Bus, that will get people to work before 9:00, from the Unsliven Bridge Terminus to Middlewood Tram stop is the 07:32. This takes 34 minutes to reach Middlewood at 08:06 or 1 hour to Sheffield city centre at 08:32.

The next Bus departs from Stocksbridge Leisure centre at 08:07 but does not stop at Middlewood (instead it goes through Worral Village missing Middlewood road) arrival at the City centre at 09:12. Most people will be on the 06:58 from the Leisure centre to be at work for 8:30.

It would not take much of a tram or rail service to better this.

 

[Meerkat]

The latest Bus, that will get people to work before 9:00, from the Unsliven Bridge Terminus to Middlewood Tram stop is the 07:32. This takes 34 minutes to reach Middlewood at 08:06 or 1 hour to Sheffield city centre at 08:32.

The next Bus departs from Stocksbridge Leisure centre at 08:07 but does not stop at Middlewood (instead it goes through Worral Village missing Middlewood road) arrival at the City centre at 09:12. Most people will be on the 06:58 from the Leisure centre to be at work for 8:30.

It would not take much of a tram or rail service to better this.

That's from the very far end of Stocksbridge and takes a loop around the place. Not sure its fair to compare that with a train that would start nearer and leave passengers with a longer walk to get it.
Also where is the train dropping you - it is unlikely to be anywhere near where you want to go in the city centre so that is another walk to add to the timings.
If the route can't support a faster bus route then I don't see how it can support a train or a tram.

 

[D365]

If the line is going to be used, it really needs to be a park and ride scheme that can take the cars off the roads. If the money was there, which I doubt that it is, I think it would be a good route for the class 399 train - tram units. But the issue will be the cost of the Infrastructure to be built on the route as that is likely to be in the millions. But how many passengers would you get on that route and where outside on the route would you make the main park and ride place for people to park their cars? Also, within the park and ride car park would you include electric charging points?

Cor, you take your concept studies very seriously

There are already a number of Supertram park-and-ride facilities along the route (Nunnery and Middlewood being the most obvious). I can’t see there being a lot of spare land for a substantial facility at Oughtibridge, given the geography of the town.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cor, you take your concept studies very seriously

There are already a number of Supertram park-and-ride facilities along the route (Nunnery and Middlewood being the most obvious). I can’t see there being a lot of spare land for a substantial facility at Oughtibridge, given the geography of the town.

If you were going to do one you might as well do it at Stocksbridge. There seems a reasonable amount of ex-industrial land there, e.g. on which the recent shopping centre was built. Presumably it would be aimed at people driving in over the Woodhead and from the Penistone direction, plus those in Stocksbridge itself who for whatever reason preferred to drive to the station.

 

[D365]

If you were going to do one you might as well do it at Stocksbridge. There seems a reasonable amount of ex-industrial land there, e.g. on which the recent shopping centre was built. Presumably it would be aimed at people driving in over the Woodhead and from the Penistone direction.

That’s a fair shout, and would have the benefit of connecting directly to the A616, as you say.

 

[Thebaz]

It's a shame platforms are no longer extant otherwise an Okehampton-style seasonal service could have been trialled to see if it was worth following-through with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a shame platforms are no longer extant otherwise an Okehampton-style seasonal service could have been trialled to see if it was worth following-through with.

You might manage a Saturday into Sheffield thing, but I'm not sure Stocksbridge is much of a tourist destination even in summer!

 

[Iskra]

You might manage a Saturday into Sheffield thing, but I'm not sure Stocksbridge is much of a tourist destination even in summer!

It has some excellent walks around it, many wonderful reservoirs, is near to Bradfield, is on the edge of the Dark Peaks/Last of the Summer Wine territory, plenty of excellent cycling/mountain biking in the area too and also the former Woodhead Line walking trail to Penistone or Sheffield. It’s not Glenridding but, it has more potential than you might think for being a ‘gateway to the country’ place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose to be fair the two car parks on that stretch of the A616 are always busy.

 

[zwk500]

I suppose to be fair the two car parks on that stretch of the A616 are always busy.

But Car drivers do not automatically go onto trains just because trains are running. Walkers might be tempted onto a train, but people wanting a day's mountain biking are unlikely to want to risk being booted off the train because there's no space. Also, I suspect a fair amount of visitors are coming from places around Sheffield, rather than Sheffield city centre.

Not to say it's impossible that tourism might provide some business, but the case is very weak.

 

[alex17595]

Just getting my crayons out. Could you do something like this. Although it seems a bit pointless as it wouldnt be too far off duplicating the current tram line. Perhaps an 'express tram' from Stocksbridge

 

[Brubulus]

Just getting my crayons out. Could you do something like this. Although it seems a bit pointless as it wouldnt be too far off duplicating the current tram line. Perhaps an 'express tram' from Stocksbridge

View attachment 130027

Far cheaper and faster than a route via Middlewood, though it would be quite duplicatory, it would still improve tram access to northeast Sheffield, and if battery trams are used with only passing loops installed for a 4tph service, a relatively cheap (in UK rail terms) project.
Buses would still be a lot cheaper, but for similar transport benefits, you would need an (even more expensive) busway on said alignment.

 

[HSTEd]

Far cheaper and faster than a route via Middlewood, though it would be quite duplicatory, it would still improve tram access to northeast Sheffield, and if battery trams are used with only passing loops installed for a 4tph service, a relatively cheap (in UK rail terms) project.

Even if it was cheaper than the Middlewood option (once you include the costs of the capital improvements along the line out there), it would cost more money operationally given that it would require, as you say, a duplicate tram service out to Middlewood.

It's 650m of tram alignment versus about 2000m for the Middlewood option, although you save about 7800m of conversion costs.
A single track tram route would also require a proper signalling system for operational reasons to prevent trams ending up stuck nose to nose. Given that drive on sight might also be dodgy when two trams are doing it in opposite directions, so its probably safety critical regardless.

 

[zwk500]

Just getting my crayons out. Could you do something like this. Although it seems a bit pointless as it wouldnt be too far off duplicating the current tram line. Perhaps an 'express tram' from Stocksbridge

If you were putting anything in there, you'd put the junction immediately north of the existing bridge over the A57, just east of the Police station, and have a viaduct over the P&R Car park

 

[mike57]

Just getting my crayons out

My thought was more like this: