Should trains have double-glazed windows?

[radamfi]

Of course, new mainland trains have come with double-glazing for many years. On the bus part of the forum, people have been saying that double-glazing is not important and even undesirable, even though double-glazing is common on coaches and on buses outside Britain. So should double-glazing continue being installed on new trains or should we revert to single-glazing?

 

[humbersidejim]

What are the pros and cons of each from your standpoint?

 

[radamfi]

What are the pros and cons of each from your standpoint?

The main argument against double-glazing on buses is the extra weight and therefore extra fuel costs. Presumably that argument is less relevant on trains. Double-glazing prevents windows steaming up.

 

[pdeaves]

There's a definite safety benefit of double glazing. If there's damage, it's rare for a whole window to get damaged, just the outer layer. That alone saves broken glass showering on people inside.

 

[Firesprite]

There is also the safety factor, In most cases when the outer pane is broken, the inner pane will remain intact. It is far harder to break a double glazed window than a single glazed window.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The main argument against double-glazing on buses is the extra weight and therefore extra fuel costs. Presumably that argument is less relevant on trains. Double-glazing prevents windows steaming up.

Single glazing would nullify the point of air-conditioning with the large losses through the windows - and stifling in summer.
The condensation also freezes up in winter.
I don't think anybody wants to go back to Mk1 levels of comfort.

 

[JonathanH]

There is also the problem of condensation with single glazed windows which is a very undesirable feature of bus travel in wet conditions.

 

[radamfi]

There is also the problem of condensation with single glazed windows which is a very undesirable feature of bus travel in wet conditions.

Of course, but some people don't seem to understand that:

What is so special about double glazing and air conditioning anyway? I can't think of many day-to-day cars that have the former, and the latter is now generally known to be detrimental to fuel consumption and efficiency (and thus presumably emissions). Meanwhile, given the current constraints on funding, why would anyone, council-funded or otherwise, operate a largely empty bus to provide a network for largely non-existent passengers?

Exactly, and I can't say I have ever got onto a bus and heard people complaining about double glazing or lack of.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Just look in our recycling skip to see the number of coach windows we get through. Almost all are just the outer pain and the train can continue its journey at a safe speed rather than being cancelled.
I WOULD like to see a return to mk1 standards ; seatwise !!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, new mainland trains have come with double-glazing for many years. On the bus part of the forum, people have been saying that double-glazing is not important and even undesirable, even though double-glazing is common on coaches and on buses outside Britain. So should double-glazing continue being installed on new trains or should we revert to single-glazing?

Double glazing:
- Increases safety
- Reduces damp
- Keeps the cold out

Complete no-brainer. For buses, too, where there is another benefit - if bonded, increased rigidity means less body movement and therefore fewer bangs and rattles.

Cars are a bit different, being occupied to low density and not having damp brought in continuously by new passengers in poor weather.

 

[physics34]

digressing slightly, the croydon tram involved in the derailment recently had windows made to "bus" standard...and many people flew out of these windows when they broke on impact... they suggest that if windows used were to train standards then there may have been less fatalities.

 

[ExRes]

A yobbo with a brick versus a train with single glazed windows, I think we'll stick to the current standards thanks

 

[Steve14]

I have double glazed windows in my CL500. Would certainly suit a train, in particular an HST - for the driver of course, that extra protection on the doors means there would be less noise provided the doors are resealed. Even the windscreen

 

[daikilo]

digressing slightly, the croydon tram involved in the derailment recently had windows made to "bus" standard...and many people flew out of these windows when they broke on impact... they suggest that if windows used were to train standards then there may have been less fatalities.

I think the issue there was not single or double but that one of the panes should have been laminated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue there was not single or double but that one of the panes should have been laminated.

They possibly were. The problem is that if the body is weak (which trams are), a single pane will easily distort once broken and pop out of the frame. Double glazed units are much more structurally strong.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As you were told on the other thread, you're comparing apples and pears. High-speed rail vehicles are not the same as low-speed road vehicles.

My car doesn't have double glazing, and it has no impact on the comfort levels nor on safety.

I don't think double glazing is needed on low-speed rail vehicles. Trams don't need it, light rail trains don't need it. On high-speed rail vehicles it is needed, for safety reasons, even with little things like bits of ballast being flicked up at 125mph. I don't think double glazing would have made a difference with the Croydon tram crash, even double glazing would have failed in such a situation- most of the injuries were suffered by standing passengers falling through the doors.

 

[radamfi]

As you were told on the other thread, you're comparing apples and pears. High-speed rail vehicles are not the same as low-speed road vehicles.

My car doesn't have double glazing, and it has no impact on the comfort levels nor on safety.

I don't think double glazing is needed on low-speed rail vehicles. Trams don't need it, light rail trains don't need it. On high-speed rail vehicles it is needed, for safety reasons, even with little things like bits of ballast being flicked up at 125mph. I don't think double glazing would have made a difference with the Croydon tram crash, even double glazing would have failed in such a situation- most of the injuries were suffered by standing passengers falling through the doors.

Presumably, though, your car has demisters.

What are you calling a "low speed rail vehicle"? What about local trains like 378s? And if it is not necessary to double glazed buses and trams, why do they have double glazed buses and trams in the Netherlands, Switzerland and many other places?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably, though, your car has demisters.

What are you calling a "low speed rail vehicle"? What about local trains like 378s? And if it is not necessary to double glazed buses and trams, why do they have double glazed buses and trams in the Netherlands, Switzerland and many other places?

First had some double-glazed single-deck Dennis Dart derivatives in the Manchester area in the 1990s. The travelling environment was much nicer, due to less damp (no condensation) and fewer rattles and bangs (bonded double glazing makes for a very rigid body).

 

[theageofthetra]

Regarding the lack of double glazing on most UK buses- Do we have lower weight limits for our PSV's compared to other countries so the additional weight becomes an issue?

Personally I think its ridiculous that even brand new buses don't have it or if not A/C that is on and working to stop the windows misting up.

 

[radamfi]

Regarding the lack of double glazing on most UK buses- Do we have lower weight limits for our PSV's compared to other countries so the additional weight becomes an issue?

Personally I think its ridiculous that even brand new buses don't have it or if not A/C that is on and working to stop the windows misting up.

For single deckers weight is not an issue from a capacity point of view, and indeed some single deckers are double-glazed, including virtually all coaches. It is more of an issue for double deckers, but you can get around that by using three axles like they do in Berlin, for example.

 

[DarloRich]

As you were told on the other thread, you're comparing apples and pears. High-speed rail vehicles are not the same as low-speed road vehicles.

My car doesn't have double glazing, and it has no impact on the comfort levels nor on safety.

I don't think double glazing is needed on low-speed rail vehicles. Trams don't need it, light rail trains don't need it. On high-speed rail vehicles it is needed, for safety reasons, even with little things like bits of ballast being flicked up at 125mph. I don't think double glazing would have made a difference with the Croydon tram crash, even double glazing would have failed in such a situation- most of the injuries were suffered by standing passengers falling through the doors.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think its ridiculous that even brand new buses don't have it or if not A/C that is on and working to stop the windows misting up.

Forced air (extractor) ventilation, as is mandatory in London, does the job of stopping steaming up and avoiding a damp oppressive atmosphere, and the classic "smell of wee" (which isn't actually of wee, but is of damp, rot and mould). It is a bit noisy, but that's tolerable for the benefits, and it's no noisier than aircon.

Yet provincial operators won't fit it because it costs them a few pence on fuel to run the fans.

Shows where their priorities lie.

 

[theageofthetra]

Forced air (extractor) ventilation, as is mandatory in London, does the job of stopping steaming up and avoiding a damp oppressive atmosphere, and the classic "smell of wee" (which isn't actually of wee, but is of damp, rot and mould). It is a bit noisy, but that's tolerable for the benefits, and it's no noisier than aircon.

Yet provincial operators won't fit it because it costs them a few pence on fuel to run the fans.

Shows where their priorities lie.

Loads of London buses run around completely steamed up so you can't see your stop. Is this because the drivers don't bother to turn the ventilation on or are told by management not to use it?

I got sick of asking coach drivers why they have the AC turned off when I used to use them to get to airports.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Presumably, though, your car has demisters.

Not on the side windows.

As for misting up, earlier versions of the Wright Renown had air vents along the top of the windows, which stopped the windows steaming up. Perhaps that's what is needed again. That's all my Ford Fiesta has.

 

[broadgage]

IMO, double glazing is essential on all fast trains for the safety reasons already given by others.
On slower trains it is desirable on comfort grounds though not in my view essential. Virtually all trains are heated and the reduced heat loss through double glazing should reduce fuel used for heating.
Most new trains are air conditioned and the reduced solar gain through double glazing should reduce energy used for cooling.

Double glazing adds weight which is undesirable, but remember that the weight of heating and cooling equipment should be reduced due to the reduced demand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not on the side windows.

Actually, many modern cars do have an air outlet on the side of the dashboard which at least helps clear the part of the side window needed to look in the wing mirror.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Loads of London buses run around completely steamed up so you can't see your stop. Is this because the drivers don't bother to turn the ventilation on or are told by management not to use it?

There are still some older buses out there without the system. You can identify them because they all smell of "wee" (damp) upstairs.

Sometimes it isn't turned on. Personally, I don't think it should be possible for a driver to turn it off.

I got sick of asking coach drivers why they have the AC turned off when I used to use them to get to airports.

Yes, I've never understood why coach drivers turn off the AC.

 

[375610]

Plenty of cars have double glazing as an option. Of course it adds weight, cost and complexity; but it significantly reduces NVH levels.

 

[ExRes]

Yes, I've never understood why coach drivers turn off the AC.

Probably because they've been told to by their employers, don't forget that when using the AC fuel consumption rises

 

[LiftFan]

I can't stand it in winter when it's cold/raining and the bus steams up instantly without double glazing, it makes for a much longer feeling and colder ride, plus you can't see where you are unless you wipe off the condensation layer...