Side Corridor Carriages

[James Swainson]

I wonder if one of you nice folks would be kind enough to settle a dispute I'm having with a friend, or perhaps point me in the right direction.

I've travelled many times on side-corridor carriages, but is there a way to find out if such carriages were ever used on a particular line between certain years?

I've travelled mostly between Woking (Guildford line, Surrey) and London (Waterloo) from around 1986 until 2000, and before that on the Southend (Essex) to London (Fenchurch St) line from around 1982 to 1990.

My friend claims such carriages were not around in "my day", yet I recall travelling in them, although I confess I mostly travelled in enclosed or open carriages.

I remember when they stopped using the enclosed carriages (no corridor or access from other compartments/carriages) because of the potential for people to be trapped and hence victims of crime. This came after a number of women were abused in such carriages.

Any help to settle this argument would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

Regards,
James

 

[bigdelboy]

I've travelled mostly between Woking (Guildford line, Surrey) and London (Waterloo) from around 1986 until 2000, and before that on the Southend (Essex) to London (Fenchurch St) line from around 1982 to 1990.

4-CEPs would have had a corridor on some carriages; CIG's and VEPs a half corridor. Some mk1's side corridors were certainly used on the last train out of waterloo to Weymouth around 1989, and probably until much later.

I remember when they stopped using the enclosed carriages (no corridor or access from other compartments/carriages) because of the potential for people to be trapped and hence victims of crime. This came after a number of women were abused in such carriages.

Any help to settle this argument would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

Regards,
James

I can remember some enclosed compartment stock to southend in the late eighties ... no side corridor that I can remember though.

(Compartent = bench seat(not on rebuilt CEPS :cry = poor man's sleeper) early morning / late evening).

 

[Alfie1014]

There were compartment 302s and 308s in service on the LTS between Fenchurch Street and Shoeburyness up until the late 1980s. I think it was only the transfer of class 310s from the WCML to the GE and the delivery of class 321s in any great numbers that eliminated the last compartment stock.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The 302s on the LTS were mostly closed compartment, for quite some time, BUT I am fairly sure I recall first class carriages on the route (on 302s or 308s? Not sure, but I think the former) having a corridor down the side of the compartments. Whether any 2nd class carriages used on the service had such an arrangement I couldn't say for sure, but I don't think so.

 

[swt_passenger]

442s still operated on your line until 2006 from Woking to Waterloo with side corridors (at least in first).

Then again the Lymington pair were also operating with side corridors until withdrawn in 2010, so that might satisfy the 'in use in the SWT area' criteria...

 

[racyrich]

On the LTS the 302s and 308s certainly has 1st class but I can't remember if they were side corridor. Maybe. If you look at this youtube video you'll see that for both classes the 1st class was at one end, and that driving coach had fewer doors - not one per seating bay. 13 mins in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACQEhAs0aaY

(Funny to hear that LTS was soon to be on the end of Crossrail according to 1992 plans!)

I've lived in Basildon all my life so am fairly familiar with what's gone on with the trains. I seem to remember back in the late 70s when I was spotting, before the units were refurbed with corridor connections, blue/grey livery and B4 trailer bogies (just the 302s), that only 2 coaches per unit was open, the other 2 were fully closed compartments. That makes me think they were originally side corridor.
In the final days under NSE it was 2nd class only, but the old 1st class end retained the 2+2 seating and was the place to sit. Apart from the air compressor directly underneath!

I can't find anything definitive about the LTS stock, but here's how the GE's 307s are described in Glover's Eastern Electric book:

As built
DTS, 9 individual compartment, 108 2nd class seats.
TC, 3 side corridor 1st compartments seating 19, 6 2nd class open bays, 60.
MS, 8 individual 2nd class bays, 96.
DTS, 8 2nd class open bays plus central toilet, 80 seats.

He claims the 302s were built 'very similar in internal layout'.

 

[Taunton]

On the LTS Class 302 units the first class compartments were side corridor, if only to give access to the WC and not be full compartments. When downgraded these became standard compartments.

These units were substantially refitted internally in the early-mid 1980s. As well as better draughtproofing at the doors and better lighting, all the standard class full compartments they were built with were stripped out and refitted with open 3+2 seating. The same happened with the GE line units. I found their ambience after the work the equal, if not better, of new units being introduced at the time.

Over on the Southern, both 4-VEP and 4-CIG units had first class side corridor compartments, and various combinations of just a few standard class ones, due to them being built as such or downgraded over time. I recall several journeys in such a standard class side-corridor compartment in a 4-VEP over time, including a ride in one about 1988 where a single unit was standing in for an express set and did Southampton Airport to Waterloo nonstop in 60 minutes, which was some going.

 

[AM9]

How about the 309s when they were redeployed up north. Did they still have the MBSK and DTC?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How about the 309s when they were redeployed up north. Did they still have the MBSK and DTC?

The 307s and 308s were both fully open saloons by the time they came North, though both retained their (declassified) 1st class areas. The 309s I'm less sure of, but I'm fairly sure they retained compartments with a side corridor, possibly in one of the driving cars (DTC, presumably) - if my memory serves me, all but one of the compartments were declassified firsts.

 

[tom1649]

309s had the first class compartments with side corridor until the end. I'm pretty sure they were located in the DTC. I enjoyed an unexpected and unusually comfortable trip to Hazel Grove in one in around 1999 vice the usual 323. I remember towards the end one of their very few booked workings was an evening peak Man Pic - Birmingham NS service which was advertised as having first class, so they weren't always declassified.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the 309s had gone through the 1980s New Interiors programme as well. One driving trailer kept three first class compartments, the rest of the 4-car set had new standard class open saloons. The units that had once been the 2-car sets, strengthened with Mk 1 former hauled carriages, were different, it was one of these trailers that had the three first class compartments.

 

[Smudger105e]

Most Mk1 stock with first class had sidwe corridors, HAPs VEPs CEPs CIGs BIGs CAPs etc etc.

Some EPBs had coaches made entirely from compartments accessed only through the doors to each side, and full height bulkheads between.

 

[GearJammer]

The EMU slammers also had a standard class compartment with side corridor, it was always located inbetween the driving cab and the first 1st class compartments.

 

[D6975]

4TC Units, although not strictly EMUs I know, had a BSK (and an FK) in the middle.

 

[DY444]

The EMU slammers also had a standard class compartment with side corridor, it was always located inbetween the driving cab and the first 1st class compartments.

Not "always". Originally CIGs and BIGs had a standard class compartment in one driving trailer only and it was the compartment farthest from the cab.

 

[yorksrob]

Not "always". Originally CIGs and BIGs had a standard class compartment in one driving trailer only and it was the compartment farthest from the cab.

On a similar note, the South Eastern division went through a phase in the nineties of downgrading an additional compartment at each end on some of the VEP's (which led to a very comfortable ride into Victoria as most of the 1st class furnishings were retained !)

On a worse note, South Central completely stripped out the compo's on some of their VEP's and CIG's in the noughties. A sad end for some fine trains.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On a worse note, South Central completely stripped out the compo's on some of their VEP's and CIG's in the noughties. A sad end for some fine trains.

I remember those, think they tended to be used on metro services- it was very strange to get on an open carriage to find the aisle down one side rather than down the middle.

 

[Taunton]

Full compartments (ie non-corridor) were favoured because they gave the absolute maximum seating capacity, being six-a-side, 12 to a compartment, which with 10 compartments in a standard suburban coach gave 120 seats.

It was very theoretical, as with bench seats where there were five passengers on a side they would inevitably sit in such a way that you would think it was full. In addition there was nowhere really to stand at all without stamping on people's feet, and on outward journeys as passengers disembarked there could be a crush in one compartment while the ones each side were half empty. In part they depended on plentiful porters on the platform who would run up and down looking for empty seats and direct passengers accordingly. I wonder how many of today's dispatch staff would care for this!

Southern emus in the 1930s were all-compartment, they slowly changed to have one open saloon per 4-car set, then 2 and 3, until finally they were all open. Well before the end they started to be remarshaled so the compartment cars were the first withdrawn. A number of the later 4-EPB compartment trailers were withdrawn and were replaced by earlier 4-SUB open trailers, which required some quite substantial alterations to braking and electrical systems to suit (I suspect taken secondhand from the withdrawn cars).

First Class open saloons were also regarded with dismay, which is why side corridors were provided because full compartments were also not really suitable for such traffic, not least because it was impossible to patrol them for passengers without the appropriate ticket.

 

[yorksrob]

First Class open saloons were also regarded with dismay, which is why side corridors were provided because full compartments were also not really suitable for such traffic, not least because it was impossible to patrol them for passengers without the appropriate ticket.

Or, more importantly, for passengers to get to the loo.