Siemens Loses Legal Challenge over HS2 Rolling Stock Contract Award

[LNW-GW Joint]

Reports are emerging that the High Court has dismissed the legal challenge Siemens made over the HS2 rolling stock contract contract award to the Hitachi-Alstom joint venture.

MSN

Siemens argued at London's High Court that HS2 unlawfully awarded the contract to the Alstom-Hitachi joint venture, including because HS2 did not verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of the project, and sought unspecified damages for losing out on the project.
But Judge Finola O'Farrell dismissed Siemens' case on Monday, saying in a written ruling that Siemens had not established the contract was awarded unlawfully and the company was therefore "not entitled to any damages".

So it looks as though Hitachi-Alstom will have to soldier on and deliver the HS2 trains.
It must look a seriously depleted long-term prospect now that the scope of HS2 itself has been cut by more than half.

The former dedicated thread on the subject has been closed.

HS2 Rolling Stock Contract Award

Details are emerging of the court action by Siemens to stop the award of this contract for 54 high speed trains for HS2 to Hitachi/Bombardier. The Telegraph has a piece on this: £2.8bn HS2 contract 'shrouded in mystery', Siemens lawsuit claims (msn.com) The gist of it is that the Siemens bid...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[185]

I kind of feel sorry for Siemens at the same time as I don't.

- They build fantastic, high performance, durable trains with enviable fault free running which are reliable and a real pleasure to both travel and work on.

- Their Siemens UK train maintenance depots range from excellent ...to shockingly bad with simple faults repeatedly not being fixed due to laziness.

 

[MCR247]

I kind of feel sorry for Siemens at the same time as I don't.

- They build fantastic, high performance, durable trains with enviable fault free running which are reliable and a real pleasure to both travel and work on.

- Their Siemens UK train maintenance depots range from excellent ...to shockingly bad with simple faults repeatedly not being fixed due to laziness.

I was going to ask which depots you might be referring to but then I saw your username

 

[Neptune]

simple faults repeatedly not being fixed due to laziness.

Can you clarify what you mean by this and provide actual evidence that this is the case rather than a wild stab in the dark?

Also if you do have this evidence of laziness in maintenance then please ensure you report it, it could affect the safety of the railway.

 

[357]

Can you clarify what you mean by this and provide actual evidence that this is the case rather than a wild stab in the dark?

Also if you do have this evidence of laziness in maintenance then please ensure you report it, it could affect the safety of the railway.

I'm pretty sure the user you quoted is referring to things like leaking roofs, engines/motors isolated, broken plug sockets and toilets out of use that absolutely do not affect safety - rather than things that would affect safety such as isolated brakes, safety systems defective, etc.

While I wouldn't say it's laziness on the part of the staff on the ground, it is laziness on the part of the maintenance company who can't be bothered having enough staff to keep the trains in a reasonable condition and as a result the only defects that get fixed are those that affect safety.

Trust me, I've worked with some very overstretched fleets. At my last depot we only had one spare unit scheduled in the evening peak. If they had more staff then more faults would be fixed in the limited depot time the units had, however instead they blamed the TOC for using too many units.

 

[185]

I was going to ask which depots you might be referring to but then I saw your username

No, in fairness that maintenance depot you're thinking of is a relatively good depot.

have this evidence of laziness in maintenance then please ensure you report it

What nonsense. By procedure, each fault is has already been reported, then one depot proceeds to do absolutely all.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Can you clarify what you mean by this and provide actual evidence that this is the case rather than a wild stab in the dark?

Also if you do have this evidence of laziness in maintenance then please ensure you report it, it could affect the safety of the railway.

Speak to any LNWR train crew about toilets...?

 

[Neptune]

What nonsense. By procedure, each fault is has already been reported, then one depot proceeds to do absolutely all.

I know how the repair book system works. I’ve been in the industry 35 years.

What I mean is if you know a fault hasn’t been repaired due to laziness then surely you will have reported this to their relevant manager. Or is that too much to ask?

 

[YorkRailFan]

I would personally prefer Siemens to build the HS2 trains compared to Hitachi and Alstom as Hitachi built the not so great 80x family and Alstom has built the 175 and 180, and we do not want the new HS2 trains to have that kind of reliability.

 

[david1212]

I would personally prefer Siemens to build the HS2 trains compared to Hitachi and Alstom as Hitachi built the not so great 80x family and Alstom has built the 175 and 180, and we do not want the new HS2 trains to have that kind of reliability.

Add the build of 701 EMU's to that with software being a big issue just to run on the conventional 750Vdc 100mph railway never mind HS2 at 225mph plus existing lines at up to 125mph.
Siemens logically would have drawn on their experience of the Velaro e320 sets.

 

[MCR247]

Add the build of 701 EMU's to that with software being a big issue just to run on the conventional 750Vdc 100mph railway never mind HS2 at 225mph plus existing lines at up to 125mph.
Siemens logically would have drawn on their experience of the Velaro e320 sets.

To be fair to Alstom the 701 order isn’t all that much to do with them (apart from all fixing!)

 

[357]

What I mean is if you know a fault hasn’t been repaired due to laziness then surely you will have reported this to their relevant manager. Or is that too much to ask?

As a driver I'd expect my TOC to be auditing the repair books tbh.

Add the build of 701 EMU's to that with software being a big issue just to run on the conventional 750Vdc 100mph railway never mind HS2 at 225mph plus existing lines at up to 125mph.
Siemens logically would have drawn on their experience of the Velaro e320 sets.

The 701 is a Bombardier design and construction.

 

[hwl]

I would personally prefer Siemens to build the HS2 trains compared to Hitachi and Alstom as Hitachi built the not so great 80x family and Alstom has built the 175 and 180, and we do not want the new HS2 trains to have that kind of reliability.

Add the build of 701 EMU's to that with software being a big issue just to run on the conventional 750Vdc 100mph railway never mind HS2 at 225mph plus existing lines at up to 125mph.
Siemens logically would have drawn on their experience of the Velaro e320 sets.

Neither Bombardier / Hitachi or Siemens were going to use any existing UK rolling stock platform experience for their HS2 products, B-H's design is a slightly modified Zefiro from Italy with a proven track record and Siemens offering was based on Velaro Turkey rather than e320/374.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The 701 is a Bombardier design and construction.

Yes, but as Bombardier Transportation is now part of Alstom, Alstom will now have Bombardier designers and engineers, naturally.

Neither Bombardier / Hitachi or Siemens were going to use any existing UK rolling stock platform experience for their HS2 products, B-H's design is a slightly modified Zefiro from Italy with a proven track record and Siemens offering was based on Velaro Turkey rather than e320/374.

Of course Alstom, and Siemens wouldn't use existing UK rolling stock as a platform. Siemens has the Desiros, which wouldn't be suitable, Alstom has the 180s with their horrendous reliability and if you include Bombardier, Bombardier has the Voyagers and Meridians which would be outdated for a new high speed train and are diesel, they have the Turbostars, Electrostars and Aventras, but these are all commuter trains so wouldn't be suitable. Hitachi could have, in theory, used the 80x, but it's better if they use a modified Zefiro, from a passenger perspective.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Of course Alstom, and Siemens wouldn't use existing UK rolling stock as a platform. Siemens has the Desiros, which wouldn't be suitable, Alstom has the 180s with their horrendous reliability and if you include Bombardier, Bombardier has the Voyagers and Meridians which would be outdated for a new high speed train and are diesel, they have the Turbostars, Electrostars and Aventras, but these are all commuter trains so wouldn't be suitable. Hitachi could have, in theory, used the 80x, but it's better if they use a modified Zefiro, from a passenger perspective.

In the current HS2 contract, Alstom are essentially only doing the bogies (at Crewe), along with fitting out the Hitachi-built trains at Derby.
It's essentially a Hitachi train, using the Zefiro platform rather than anything from the Aventra or 80x designs.
Alstom's history with class 175/180 is irrelevant on several levels as far as HS2 is concerned.

 

[YorkRailFan]

In the current HS2 contract, Alstom are essentially only doing the bogies (at Crewe), along with fitting out the Hitachi-built trains at Derby.
It's essentially a Hitachi train, using the Zefiro platform rather than anything from the Aventra or 80x designs.
Alstom's history with class 175/180 is irrelevant on several levels as far as HS2 is concerned.

Of course the 175/180 is irrelevant, my point is that of course Alstom wouldn't use them as a platform and the Zefiro platform is much better than the 80x. The main issue, is that Alstom/Hitachi understandably doesn't know how many to build, despite the contract, because of the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester.

 

[D365]

I would personally prefer Siemens to build the HS2 trains compared to Hitachi and Alstom as Hitachi built the not so great 80x family and Alstom has built the 175 and 180, and we do not want the new HS2 trains to have that kind of reliability.

Crewe and Derby are ex-Bombardier; nothing to do with the ’Coradia’ diesels.

The main issue, is that Alstom/Hitachi understandably doesn't know how many to build, despite the contract, because of the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester.

There’s no ”despite” about it - either the contract is fulfilled in its original form, or (99% of the time) a variation is agreed.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Crewe and Derby are ex-Bombardier; nothing to do with the ’Coradia’ diesels.


I’m confused by this comment. There’s no ”despite” about it - either the contract is fulfilled in its original form, or (99% of the time) a variation is agreed.

I know, and Alstom is only making the bogies.

Crewe and Derby are ex-Bombardier; nothing to do with the ’Coradia’ diesels.


There’s no ”despite” about it - either the contract is fulfilled in its original form, or (99% of the time) a variation is agreed.

Likely the latter if Labour doesn't reinstate Phases 2A and 2B of HS2.

 

[IndianPacific]

The full text of the outcome is here: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/TCC/2023/2768.html

So Siemens didn’t win any of their challenges, but some sections still aren’t a great look for HS2.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There’s no ”despite” about it - either the contract is fulfilled in its original form, or (99% of the time) a variation is agreed.

I don't believe the HS2 rolling stock contract is yet enforceable, without technical and financial close.
Quite apart from changes now necessary because of the cancellation beyond Phase 1.
I suspect Hitachi-Alstom are still in preferred-supplier mode at the moment.