Signal Boxes on Maps

[Andy873]

I was looking at an OS map (Revised 1929).

Now on this map sheet it shows signal boxes, some are noted by S.B. while other boxes are shown without the abbreviation S.B. Does this mean anything? The 1909 map lists them as boxes.

The ones without S.B. next to them - could this denote the box is still there but it is now closed? or is this just an omission by the map maker?

 

[Gloster]

The indication of the existence of a signal box, even on 25” maps, is a bit hit and miss although generally good. They can be omitted, ground frames and the like can be shown as boxes, closed ones can be marked without any indication that they are closed, etc. The indication or lack of indication cannot be taken as absolute proof of their existence or not. Remember, the maps were made by cartographers, not railwaymen.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

One other observation to what @Gloster has just said is that OS maps sometimes don't get resurveyed all that often, maybe every decade or so, if that, (possibly longer!) so any intermediate revisions might not pick up that a signal box has been relocated or even removed.

 

[Trackman]

One other observation to what @Gloster has just said is that OS maps sometimes don't get resurveyed all that often, maybe every decade or so, if that, (possibly longer!) so any intermediate revisions might not pick up that a signal box has been relocated or even removed.

Going slightly OT, there was revision in the Manchester area, 1954 I think. The high quality photos of the revision points were unearthed and make for fascinating viewing. For example, if you search 'railway' you can see them doing platforms, signal boxes, signal posts, mileposts, platelayers huts, signals, platforms, bridges etc.. I dont think they had look-outs and no hi-vis! There is a website for these, but finding it is a different matter.
edit: found it! but I think there is a different and better website too.

Timepix maps old photos - Free to share with Keywords: railway

See the entire gallery

www.timepix.uk

description: A photo of Lees signal box in Oldham, to the left about 4 or 5 railway tracks. A man with a white arrow and a board with numbers 67A 34/9504 65 434 on it and is pointing to the front corner of the signal box. The front side of the signal box has the name 'Lees' above the window and the signal box door is open. There's a telegraph pole to the right of the photo.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone, points noted!

Can someone remind me please - If you have two signal boxes only 0.5 miles apart and each box has just two signal posts, what colour signals we they be? I can't see any intermediate signals.

 

[Ken H]

One has to remember that OS staff probably would not know the difference between a signal box, a gate box or a structure containing a shunting or ground frame. So 'SB' would probably be used for all these buildings.

 

[matchmaker]

Even on the Signalling Record Society website there are quite a number of signal boxes on the map where the location is doubtful. It's available to non members:

SRS OS map

 

[John Webb]

Again if you're going on OS maps, they didn't always get all the signal posts correctly marked.
For the two boxes you mention, the signal at the first box would have been a stop (red) signal. It is very likely that below it would have been the 'Distant' (yellow) signal for the next box. The distant signal was linked to a 'slotting' mechanism to prevent it showing clear when the Stop signal was at danger, regardless of whether the next box had cleared it or not.
The modern colour light equivalent is a three-aspect signal showing Red, Yellow or Green.

 

[Andy873]

Once again, thanks everyone.

Again if you're going on OS maps, they didn't always get all the signal posts correctly marked.
For the two boxes you mention, the signal at the first box would have been a stop (red) signal. It is very likely that below it would have been the 'Distant' (yellow) signal for the next box. The distant signal was linked to a 'slotting' mechanism to prevent it showing clear when the Stop signal was at danger, regardless of whether the next box had cleared it or not.
The modern colour light equivalent is a three-aspect signal showing Red, Yellow or Green.

Yes, I thought this must have been the arrangement. Signal posts with both red and yellow signals. As I understand it, there was always a yellow before the next onward red one to indicate that slowing down was in order.

Does anyone know what box numbers were carried by Padiham Station East & West? 333 and 332?

The one after West box was 334, then 335 and so on.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does anyone know what box numbers were carried by Padiham Station East & West? 333 and 332?

It's a good question, but would such info normally ever be shown on an OS map, at the 1:2,500 scale (= ~25 inches to the mile) or even more detailed than that?

View map: Great Britain. Ordnance Survey, OS town plan - Padiham - sheet LXIII.4.4 - Ordnance Survey Town Plans of England and Wales, 1840s-1890s

 

[Ken H]

Lets not forget what the ordnance survey was created for. It was part of the military. I dont think the military would be interested in types of signal or if a box is a signal box or a gate box.

 

[John Webb]

Once again, thanks everyone.


Yes, I thought this must have been the arrangement. Signal posts with both red and yellow signals. As I understand it, there was always a yellow before the next onward red one to indicate that slowing down was in order......

A distant signal refers to any stop signal in the section being entered. So if there are two or three stop signals they must all be cleared before the distant signal can be cleared.

So in the above diagram on the Up slow - the top line - Signal 2 is the Outer Home, Signal 6 is the Inner Home and Signal 10 is the 'Starter' or 'Section' signal. The distant, Signal 1, cannot be cleared until Signals 2, 6 and 10 are all cleared. That is forced on the signaller by the interlocking between the levers. (Signal 1 was converted to a colour light in December 1938 as part of a policy by the LMS of making 'remote distants', as they called them, colour light signals rather than mechanical operation - eliminated maintaining a mile+ of wire and its pulleys making for greater reliability and only incidently making life easier for the signaller!)

 

[Gloster]

Once again, thanks everyone.


Yes, I thought this must have been the arrangement. Signal posts with both red and yellow signals. As I understand it, there was always a yellow before the next onward red one to indicate that slowing down was in order.

Does anyone know what box numbers were carried by Padiham Station East & West? 333 and 332?

The one after West box was 334, then 335 and so on.

Where do these numbers (332, 333, etc.) appear? Without knowing more I would presume that they were internal Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway numbers (but possibly continuing in use long after), used either by the S&T or Control for some purpose.

 

[Andy873]

Lets not forget what the ordnance survey was created for. It was part of the military. I dont think the military would be interested in types of signal or if a box is a signal box or a gate box.

It's a good question, but would such info normally ever be shown on an OS map

Good points - I've never seen on any map sheets signal box numbers, and can't think why the map makers would even note them except to mark the boxes themselves.

A distant signal refers to any stop signal in the section being entered. So if there are two or three stop signals they must all be cleared before the distant signal can be cleared.

Thanks John for the explanation and the photo from St. Albans box.

Where do these numbers (332, 333, etc.) appear? Without knowing more I would presume that they were internal Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway numbers (but possibly continuing in use long after), used either by the S&T or Control for some purpose.

These were internal L&Y numbers.

Padiham West has been confirmed as 333 and East 332. The details come from a book on L&Y signalling by the now sadly late Chris Littleworth, who by the way was a lovely guy and always very helpful.

Chris also confirms the box that protected the branch at the West junction (Great Harwood junction) was actually called Padiham junction. This original box was i
opened 17/6/1876. It had 22 levers and was brick built. It was situated on the Up line side of the East Lancashire side until 12/6/1898 when it was replaced by Great Harwood junction box. This new box was positioned away from the junction and placed on the Down line side and had 60 levers.

Going to the Eastern junction, the original box was called Rose Grove Junction, it had 13 levers and was brick built. It was inspected 28/2/1873 which gives us an approximate opening date. This was replaced in 1899 by Rose Grove West which was moved further away from the junction.

On another note - Now that I've found out about this original box at RG junction, I went back to measure from MP1 back to it. Guess what? This original box was actually the zero point for the branch.

Going back to the box numbers - I don't know when these numbers were first used by the L&Y. In 1895 a connection and sidings were installed to serve Martholme colliery together with a new box. This new box was No 335, going West, these box numbers are consecutive i.e. 336, 337 etc, so perhaps this numbering system came in with the new box?

 

[Gloster]

On another note - Now that I've found out about this original box at RG junction, I went back to measure from MP1 back to it. Guess what? This original box was actually the zero point for the branch.

I would be surprised if the box itself was the zero point. More likely the the box was at the point that had been, according to the L&Y’s methods, designated as the zero point.

 

[Andy873]

I would be surprised if the box itself was the zero point. More likely the the box was at the point that had been, according to the L&Y’s methods, designated as the zero point.

@Gloster Thant's fair enough.

It does still begs the question as to when did this internal L&Y numbering system come in?

 

[infobleep]

One has to remember that OS staff probably would not know the difference between a signal box, a gate box or a structure containing a shunting or ground frame. So 'SB' would probably be used for all these buildings.

The OS also have rules around classification so somethings might be combined, whereas the rail industry needs them to be more granular.

Then there is the frequency of updates as noted by others.

The country series, which was 6" to the mile [1:10 560] and pre-dated the National Grid series, did not include building numbers, let alone signal box numbers.

 

[Rescars]

@Gloster Thant's fair enough.

It does still begs the question as to when did this internal L&Y numbering system come in?

Did other companies number their signal boxes? I wonder why the L&Y did this. I recall reading somewhere that a very high proportion (two thirds or thereabouts) of L&Y boxes controlled junctions. Could this have had a bearing on the practice of numbering perhaps?

 

[matchmaker]

A distant signal refers to any stop signal in the section being entered. So if there are two or three stop signals they must all be cleared before the distant signal can be cleared.
View attachment 157048
So in the above diagram on the Up slow - the top line - Signal 2 is the Outer Home, Signal 6 is the Inner Home and Signal 10 is the 'Starter' or 'Section' signal. The distant, Signal 1, cannot be cleared until Signals 2, 6 and 10 are all cleared. That is forced on the signaller by the interlocking between the levers. (Signal 1 was converted to a colour light in December 1938 as part of a policy by the LMS of making 'remote distants', as they called them, colour light signals rather than mechanical operation - eliminated maintaining a mile+ of wire and its pulleys making for greater reliability and only incidently making life easier for the signaller!)

I don't have a copy of the diagram easily to hand, but I clearly remember the pull sequence on the Down Main at Bo'ness Junction, between Edinburgh and Glasgow in the 1970s. 46 (outer home), 44 (inner home), 43 (starter), 42 (advanced starter), then 47 which was the inner distant, and finally 48 which was the outer distant and one of only two colour lights, the other being the up distant 22. As the line at that time was signalled by Absolute Block between Greenhill Upper Junction and Haymarket Central, the signalman didn't have much time to relax, especially as Edinburgh - Glasgow services were tightly timed half hourly push-pull sets with a 27 at each end of 6 Mk2s. These Mk2s were I believe unique, as to cater for the heavy braking from the 90mph required to keep time they were fitted with disc brakes.

 

[Andy873]

Did other companies number their signal boxes? I wonder why the L&Y did this. I recall reading somewhere that a very high proportion (two thirds or thereabouts) of L&Y boxes controlled junctions. Could this have had a bearing on the practice of numbering perhaps?

Did other companies number their boxes? - a very good question.

The L&Y not only numbered the signal boxes, they numbered the water columns and even their clocks.

What's interesting to me is that when Padiham Station West and East boxes were replaced in 1913 the company didn't bother to number it?

Queen Brick Siding opened in 1904 and was given an out of sync number of 610.

Perhaps the L&Y originally only numbered the junction boxes. My old branch came later in the life of the L&Y (opened fully in 1877), perhaps numbering intermediate boxes between junctions was something they tried and at some point thought "let's not bother anymore"?