Signals in heavy fog

[466.networkers]

I'm currently at Sheerness station, a terminus.

It's quite foggy, and as such, the signal at the end of the platform cannot be seen.

What happens with regards of the train leaving? Does the driver contact the signalman at Sittingbourne?

Thanks in advance.

 

[strange6]

I'm currently at Sheerness station, a terminus.

It's quite foggy, and as such, the signal at the end of the platform cannot be seen.

What happens with regards of the train leaving? Does the driver contact the signalman at Sittingbourne?

Thanks in advance.

Normally, there are repeaters on the platform that display the status of a platform signal (usually it just says 'off') so there would be no need to disturb the signalman

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Normally, there are repeaters on the platform that display the status of a platform signal (usually it just says 'off') so there would be no need to disturb the signalman

There may well be up here, but I wouldn't be so sure down on the Southern, I din't notica any when I was there in November. I would guess that if it was impossible to see, the signalman would confirm it via phone.

 

[strange6]

There may well be up here, but I wouldn't be so sure down on the Southern, I din't notica any when I was there in November. I would guess that if it was impossible to see, the signalman would confirm it via phone.

Really? I bow to your experience there, Matt

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Normally, there are repeaters on the platform that display the status of a platform signal (usually it just says 'off') so there would be no need to disturb the signalman

OFF indicators are usually placed for the benefit of platform staff and guards to tell them whether the signal is showing a proceed aspect for the dispatch process to start.
The indicator can't illustrate what aspect the signal is displaying - only that it's showing a proceed. Therefore, it would be useless to a driver as he/she needs to know what aspect it is displaying (G, YY, Y).

 

[Ploughman]

It must be thick fog if you can't see the glow from a few metres away.
Or are the trains stopping a long way back from the signal?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It must be thick fog if you can't see the glow from a few metres away.
Or are the trains stopping a long way back from the signal?

Depends on its lenght today, but off-peak Sittingbourne-Sheerness trains are usually 4-car units on a 12-car platform at Sheerness...

 

[466.networkers]

The train was the 0735 which was formed of a single 2-car Class 466.

ALL trains on the line have been 466s since after the snow ... where there were a mixture of 465s and also a 375/3 on the line ... Anyway, I digress ...

Platform 1 at Sheerness is a 12 car platform, and the signal is just after the platform ends so the train is a long way away from it.

There is only one OFF indicator on the Sheerness Branch - this can be found at Swale as the platform is on a curve.

 

[strange6]

OFF indicators are usually placed for the benefit of platform staff and guards to tell them whether the signal is showing a proceed aspect for the dispatch process to start.
The indicator can't illustrate what aspect the signal is displaying - only that it's showing a proceed. Therefore, it would be useless to a driver as he/she needs to know what aspect it is displaying (G, YY, Y).

I know But like you say, it's not a driver aid

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I know but it that's not the point to a repeater. it tells everybody, including the driver, that the signal is off and the train can procede out of the station

It is of no use to the driver. The driver needs to know the exact aspect the signal is displaying; the OFF indicator cannot do that. Therefore the driver will not use the OFF indicator.
To put it simply the OFF indicator, when displaying OFF means the signal is displaying (4 aspect area) G, YY or Y. The driver needs to know which one of the 4 it is displaying.

 

[strange6]

It is of no use to the driver. The driver needs to know the exact aspect the signal is displaying; the OFF indicator cannot do that. Therefore the driver will not use the OFF indicator.
To put it simply the OFF indicator, when displaying OFF means the signal is displaying (4 aspect area) G, YY or Y. The driver needs to know which one of the 4 it is displaying.

I know, that's why the driver can't see it He knows he can go past the starting signal though, so in these foggy cases he will pull out slow until he can see the aspect

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I know, that's why the driver can't see it

You changed your last post pretty sharpish.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I know, that's why the driver can't see it

So to imply on this topic that the driver will use when he cannot see the signal it is misleading. The only people to use it will be the platform staff at Sittingbourne (if there are any).

 

[strange6]

You changed your last post pretty sharpish.

I know. I wrote it badly

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I know. I wrote it badly

No you didn't, you changed entirely what it said when Ralph proved you wrong.

 

[driver9000]

It is of no use to the driver. The driver needs to know the exact aspect the signal is displaying; the OFF indicator cannot do that. Therefore the driver will not use the OFF indicator.
To put it simply the OFF indicator, when displaying OFF means the signal is displaying (4 aspect area) G, YY or Y. The driver needs to know which one of the 4 it is displaying.

It's a lot of use to the Driver. A Driver can move the train on authority of an OFF indicator, I have several locations on my route card where this is necessary (including two platforms of the same station). The OFF indicator tells the Driver, and others involved in dispatch of the train if at a station that the signal is displaying a proceed aspect. The driver will react to the aspect when it comes into view and drive accoridngly. Some locations have OFF indicators away from stations - there is one for setting back into the Tilcon yard at Brindle Heath near Salford.

 

[strange6]

So to imply on this topic that the driver will use when he cannot see the signal it is misleading. The only people to use it will be the platform staff at Sittingbourne (if there are any).

Yes I know! If it's off, the driver will get the buzz or the RA and off he goes. But he probably will not see the RA sign as well hahahaha
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a lot of use to the Driver. A Driver can move the train on authority of an OFF indicator, I have several locations on my route card where this is necessary (including two platforms of the same station). The OFF indicator tells the Driver, and others involved in dispatch of the train if at a station that the signal is displaying a proceed aspect. The driver will react to the aspect when it comes into view and drive accoridngly. Some loactions have OFF indicators away from stations - there is one for setting back into the Tilcon yard at Brindle Heath near Salford.

Yes, you don't need to know the exact aspect of it do you? You know it's off and therefore you can proceed even if you don't know the exact aspect
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No you didn't, you changed entirely what it said when Ralph proved you wrong.

I wasn't wrong! lol

 

[driver9000]

Yes I know!
Yes, you don't need to know the exact aspect of it do you? You know it's off and therefore you can proceed even if you don't know the exact aspect

Knowing the signal has been pulled off is enough, and the illumination of the OFF indicator is sufficient to start the train with (once station duties are complete and the bell has been rung). When starting away on an OFF indicator I approach the signal steadily until I sight the aspect being shown and act according to that.

I'm not just talking about foggy conditions though. If we had to phone the signal box each time a signal was out of view and an OFF indicator was illuminated, the delays would soon rack up and the signalmen would get bogged down in phone calls especially in a busy station area.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It's a lot of use to the Driver. A Driver can move the train on authority of an OFF indicator, I have several locations on my route card where this is necessary (including two platforms of the same station). The OFF indicator tells the Driver, and others involved in dispatch of the train if at a station that the signal is displaying a proceed aspect. The driver will react to the aspect when it comes into view and drive accoridngly. Some locations have OFF indicators away from stations - there is one for setting back into the Tilcon yard at Brindle Heath near Salford.

Crossed wires here. I'm aware that if the starting signal is not in sight of the station anyway, then it can happen. But this topic is about Sheerness, where the starting signal is on the platform (at least on one of them!).
But anyway, I'm heritage not mainline.

 

[strange6]

Crossed wires here. I'm aware that if the starting signal is not in sight of the station anyway, then it can happen. But this topic is about Sheerness, where the starting signal is on the platform (at least on one of them!).
But anyway, I'm heritage not mainline.

At the end of the day, the 'off' indicator was originally for the benefit of the guard and platform staff to give RA to the driver. If there is such an indicator on Sheerness platforms then the signalman would not need to be contacted in heavy fog

 

[driver9000]

The signals I make reference to are also starting signals on the platform ends

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The signals I make reference to are also starting signals on the platform ends

Why does the instruction exist to proceed with the OFF indicator then?

 

[driver9000]

At some locations, either because of the station furniture (canopy etc) or curvature of the platform the starting signal may not visible from where the train is standing.

Platform 3 at Preston in the Up direction has an OFF indicator because the signal is outside of the train shed roof, most trains stop inside the shed so the signal is not visible from the stopping point. All platforms at Blackpool North have OFF indicators because of the platform curves making the starting signal difficult to see among the clutter of the station area and throat from the block ends.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

At some locations, either because of the station furniture (canopy etc) or curvature of the platform the starting signal may not visible from where the train is standing.

Platform 3 at Preston in the Up direction has an OFF indicator because the signal is outside of the train shed roof, most trains stop inside the shed so the signal is not visible from the stopping point. All platforms at Blackpool North have OFF indicators because of the platform curves making the starting signal difficult to see among the clutter of the station area and throat from the block ends.

Ok, thanks. My mistake then.

 

[strange6]

That's what they were originally put into use for

 

[466.networkers]

I don't have many photos of Sheerness station, but this maybe of some use:

Clicky

The signal for platform 1 is the little green dot you can see ...

(I took the photo from the far end of Platform 1/2)

As you can see, the signal is quite a distance from the front of the pair of 466s yet alone a single one!

There is nothing along either platforms except lights and signs - no indicators anywhere.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

As far as I am aware signalling regulations require that if a signal is sited at a location where by necessity it has to be but results in a limited approach sighting then a banner repeater must be installed. There used to be an instruction (somewhere?) that a Driver must not use an off indicator as a signal aid. I personally think that it's a bit silly - as other posters including a Driver have pointed out. Logically the driver creeps along until the signal can be observed. The very curvy platforms at Waterloo International had two banner repeaters along each platform if I remember correctly.

 

[driver9000]

There used to be an instruction (somewhere?) that a Driver must not use an off indicator as a signal aid. I personally think that it's a bit silly - as other posters including a Driver have pointed out. Logically the driver creeps along until the signal can be observed. The very curvy platforms at Waterloo International had two banner repeaters along each platform if I remember correctly.

I think I've heard something similar - lost in the mists of time. The instructions have changed and I've quoted this from Rulebook module S2 4.8, I know it mentions not relying on the OFF indicator to indicate the line is clear, but if your train is the only train on that line then you will be able to take it as applying to your train. If you were behind another train, you would observe that the indicator went out/signal returned to Danger and then pulled off again:

"On a platform line, the driver may, at certain locations, rely only upon the Off indicator showing the word OFF as an indication that the signal which it applies to is showing a proceed aspect. In these circumstances, the driver must not assume the line ahead is clear for the train as the signal may have been cleared for a train ahead."

 

[strange6]

As far as I am aware signalling regulations require that if a signal is sited at a location where by necessity it has to be but results in a limited approach sighting then a banner repeater must be installed. There used to be an instruction (somewhere?) that a Driver must not use an off indicator as a signal aid. I personally think that it's a bit silly - as other posters including a Driver have pointed out. Logically the driver creeps along until the signal can be observed. The very curvy platforms at Waterloo International had two banner repeaters along each platform if I remember correctly.

Banner repeaters and 'off' indicators are getting people confused. A banner repeater is entirely a driver aid and although you sometimes see them situated on station platforms (for the benefit of train drivers that are going through the station and not stopping at it), they are there to advise on the aspect of an oncoming signal that is of restricted view (and that includes starting signals for through drivers). Banner repeaters, like 'off' indicators, only tell the driver if the oncoming signal is off or on. A banner repeater is NOT for use by the guard / platform staff if situated within station limits.
The 'off' indicator is there for the purposes of Platform staff and guards only! As long as all over station duties have been done, the 'off' indicator will authorise the guard and/or platform staff to give Right Away to the driver if it displays 'off' If it is blank (does not show 'off'), they can't give RA to the driver. The 'off' indicator is NOT a driver aid. in fact, you'll see many trains pulling past it at most stations and out of view of the driver - the driver does not need to see it, even if the platform starting signal is out of view

 

[BestWestern]

Banner repeaters and 'off' indicators are getting people confused. A banner repeater is entirely a driver aid and although you sometimes see them situated on station platforms (for the benefit of train drivers that are going through the station and not stopping at it), they are there to advise on the aspect of an oncoming signal that is of restricted view (and that includes starting signals for through drivers). Banner repeaters, like 'off' indicators, only tell the driver if the oncoming signal is off or on. A banner repeater is NOT for use by the guard / platform staff if situated within station limits.
The 'off' indicator is there for the purposes of Platform staff and guards only! As long as all over station duties have been done, the 'off' indicator will authorise the guard and/or platform staff to give Right Away to the driver if it displays 'off' If it is blank (does not show 'off'), they can't give RA to the driver. The 'off' indicator is NOT a driver aid. in fact, you'll see many trains pulling past it at most stations and out of view of the driver - the driver does not need to see it, even if the platform starting signal is out of view

Having said that however, there are examples of where a banner repeater is used by the Guard and platform staff, effectively observed as if it were a starting signal. The one which immediately comes to mind is Bath Spa on the down, where a banner is sited on the platform end and is effectively obeyed as the starting signal. The same also applies at Portsmouth Harbour and at Fratton, where banner repeaters are the only signalling aid and are used for train dispatch purposes. There is an interesting situation at Romsey heading towards Southampton, where the curvature puts the signal pretty much out of view, and a banner is located toward the 'rear' end of the platform, however Gaurds must observe the signal itself as it has a junction indicator which has to be checked for the correct routing.