Simplification: Huge fare rises for YP holders

[yorkie]

The Saver is being abolished, and being re-named Super Off Peak, Off Peak, or Anytime, depending on route.

Before privatisation, all non-London Savers were unrestricted. Sadly, greedy TOCs have imposed stealth fare rises by imposing restrictions on these so-called "protected" fares in some cases.

But, in many cases, the Saver remains unrestricted. For holders of 16-25 railcards, this means the Saver is the ticket of choice before 10am. The minimum fare with a 16-25 railcard for Standard Open/Day Returns is £16, but for Savers it is only £8.

Now, some TOCs are renaming Savers as "Off Peak" tickets, but they are still valid at any time. Obviously, this is a rather odd naming convention, but it does not cause railcard holders to pay more.

But some TOCs have decided to rename Savers as "Anytime" tickets. This means they no longer qualify for the £8 minimum fare, the minimum fare is now £16 on these tickets. So that means huge rises for many!

Below is a table of some example fares that are affected by the rises.

                   Old fare   New fare  Increase
YORK-SHEFFIELD      £11.70      £16.00     27%
TRURO-PLYMOUTH      £10.70*     £16.00     33%
LIVERPOOL-CREWE      £8.50      £13.60     38%
CARDIFF-BRISTOL TM.  £9.90      £15.00     34%
APPLEBY-LOCKERBIE   £11.75      £16.00     27%
BURNLEY-BLACKPOOL    £8.25      £12.50     34%
* Business Saver

All the above fares are Savers (old fares) that are being re-named Anytime from 7th September, the prices shown are what a 16-25 railcard holder pays currently compared to the cost of the replacement Anytime ticket from Monday 8 September if travelling before 10:00 M-F.

 

[me123]

Hmm... this is the first sign I've seen of railcard holders being snubbed by the simpllification: I always thought that they were going to be better off :?

Anyway, that's quite worrying and more evidence that this is just going to gain the rail industry more money, whilst causing more inconvenience to passengers. Hopefully more TOCs will be introducing these "8A off-peak" tickets than the anytime tickets, and hopefully for myself FSR will be going for the "cheaper" option. I have a slight feeling that the NXEC fares, however, will be "anytime". Can someone confirm what tickets in Scotland are priced by NXEC?

 

[dan_atki]

Can someone confirm what tickets in Scotland are priced by NXEC?

As a rough rule of thumb here, tickets marked with a routeing as 'NXEC Only' or 'NXEC & Connections' are priced by them along with cross border fares between Scotland and England along the ECML.

From what I can see most (if not all) 'Any Permitted's wholly within Scotland are priced by Scotrail.

 

[John @ home]

Now, some TOCs are renaming Savers as "Off Peak" tickets, but they are still valid at any time. Obviously, this is a rather odd naming convention, but it does not cause railcard holders to pay more.

But some TOCs have decided to rename Savers as "Anytime" tickets. This means they no longer qualify for the £8 minimum fare, the minimum fare is now £16 on these tickets. So that means huge rises for many!

Many thanks for your excellent work on this, Yorkie. This is the first hard, direct evidence I have have seen that actual fares are rising as a direct result of Fares Simplification. It is very unfair to railcard holders, and I say that as one of the few remaining people who have never been able to buy a Young Persons Railcard or a Senior Railcard [1].

I had previously read that TOCs were avoiding precisely this issue by changing the restriction on tickets like this to "Not valid before 0500" and naming them Off-Peak. If some TOCs are doing that and others are not then this is a very unfair practice and it ought to be, and indeed may very well be, in contravention of the TOCs' franchises.

My view is that now is the time to consult Barry Doe and then perhaps refer the matter to ORR.

John

[1] Just after I left university, they introduced the Student Railcard.
When I was about 22 or 23, they extended this to everyone aged 16 - 21.
Just after I was 27, they extended it to those under 26.
No doubt, when I reach 59, they will move the Senior Railcard age from 60 to 65 in line with harmonisation of the state pension!

 

[yorkie]

In general, Chiltern/Virgin/NXEC/Cross Country/FSR appear to be renaming them to "Off Peak", even though in many cases the Savers they price are valid at any time.

Northern/FGW have renamed a lot of their Savers (but not all!) as Anytime.

Northern renamed York-Bradford Saver as "Off Peak" but it is valid any time.
Northern renamed York-Sheffield Saver as "Anytime"
NXEC renamed York-Retford Saver as "Off Peak"

Now, as you know, there is a line between Sheffield and Retford....

NXEC set the York-Shireoaks Saver, this is valid via Sheffield and costs 50p more than Sheffield, they renamed this as "Off Peak" but it is valid any time, and valid via Sheffield, so railcard holders can travel at peak time between York and Sheffield for only 50p more than the cost of the old Saver but about £5 less than the cost of the replacement Anytime ticket.

So, if you are a railcard holder going to Sheffield at peak time, DON'T get an Anytime as you won't get your full railcard discount. Instead buy to Shireoakes and cut your journey 'short' (which is allowed). If challenged by the guard simply ask the guard to look up the restriction, they will see it is valid on any train so they can't do anything to prevent you doing this.

It's so simple isn't it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had previously read that TOCs were avoiding precisely this issue by changing the restriction on tickets like this to "Not valid before 0500" and naming them Off-Peak. If some TOCs are doing that and others are not then this is a very unfair practice and it ought to be, and indeed may very well be, in contravention of the TOCs' franchises.

XC have done this by changing 8A to 8X.

NXEC have changed some tickets from 8A to 8E, but there is no documentation whatsoever that I can find where 8E is described so I can't see what it means.

8X is "Valid after 0500" so it is possible NXEC have done something similar. The York-Doncaster "Off Peak" is valid on any train but it may have a silly restriction like "Valid after 0530" making it valid on all trains as the first one is 0600. By the way, the York-Doncaster "Off Peak" is more expensive than the "Anytime Day". The York-Doncaster "Off Peak" is valid any time but the York-Doncaster "Off Peak day" is not valid in the morning peak. This, according to ATOC, is simpler than the old system of CDR/SVR/SDR.

 

[me123]

I thought FSR would price most of Scotland's fares (the only fares that definately won't be are Lockerbie and Dunbar, and even then I'm not sure if FSR price some of them). I'm pretty sure MTH-EDB is NXEC as well. However, I thought there was some rule that operators whose services continue to London always price the fares, which would be a bit odd for Aberdeen-Dundee :? Can someone clear that rule up for me please?

 

[yorkie]

I thought FSR would price most of Scotland's fares (the only fares that definately won't be are Lockerbie and Dunbar, and even then I'm not sure if FSR price some of them). I'm pretty sure MTH-EDB is NXEC as well. However, I thought there was some rule that operators whose services continue to London always price the fares, which would be a bit odd for Aberdeen-Dundee :? Can someone clear that rule up for me please?

In the old Avantix traveller,

Lockerbie-Edinburgh was FSR (should this now be TPE?)
Lockerbie-Glasgow was VXC (should this now be VWC?)
Dunbar-Edinburgh was GNE (NXEC)
Motherwell-Edinburgh was FSR (Note: NXEC have their own fare)

Yes the TOC that sets the ex-London fare normally sets it for the whole route, even when other TOCs join in (notably XC) but there are limits, which are not always logical.

 

[alex57601]

So which TOCs are renaming what exactly?

 

[me123]

Yes the TOC that sets the ex-London fare normally sets it for the whole route, even when other TOCs join in (notably XC) but there are limits, which are not always logical.

Ahh, thanks. Seemed a bit odd for the Stonehaven-Aberdeen fare to be priced by NXEC

 

[nedchester]

http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html

 

[yorkie]

http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html

But that's the lying version. See
http://*******.com/5w2xwf for the honest version!!

 

[nedchester]

But that's the lying version. See
http://*******.com/5w2xwf for the honest version!!

Brilliant!

 

[Oracle]

I am pleased to say that I used my Student R/C to the max to get home from Bristol, moons ago. Now I have a Disabled R/C, and I can renew that for a year or three....I wonder how the DRC is affected post-7/9? By the way, you don't have to be in a wheelchair to qualify (for those who may not know). Long-term sick can qualify say. However it's still a rigmarole to obtain one and it takes time..and money! To renew though is simplicity.

 

[yorkie]

Disabled railcard doesn't have minimum fares, does it? so it won't be affected in that sense.

You just have the daft "off peak" fares being valid at peak time, and general confusion that brings... oh sorry, err I meant you can "buy your ticket with confidence" :roll:

 

[theblackwatch]

At least it will give holder of YP's the chance to get used to another huge fares increase when, in a few years time, they find themselves too old to buy a railcard!

 

[yorkie]

As for the percentages, I made the mistake of thinking if a ticket had a 34% discount then it's a 34% rise if it doesn't give the discount, I realise that's wrong now, thanks to darkprince66 on uk.railway (If you are reading this, no I am not a Maths student, I got a B in Maths GCSE, please accept my apologies!) Anyway the percentages are correct if you consider them in terms of "The percentage that was previously saved" In terms of a rise it's higher.

 

[Max]

This is going to affect a lot of people. For example, it will now cost me a ridiculous £16 to get to York before 10am, a rise of around £3.50 (on what is already an expensive ticket!).

 

[thefab444]

I think SWT appear to be keeping Savers. :-?

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SW...pes/Buying+tickets+on+the+day.htm#SaverReturn

 

[yorkie]

I think SWT appear to be keeping Savers. :-?

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SW...pes/Buying+tickets+on+the+day.htm#SaverReturn

what makes you think that?

 

[devon_metro]

This is going to affect a lot of people. For example, it will now cost me a ridiculous £16 to get to York before 10am, a rise of around £3.50 (on what is already an expensive ticket!).

Isn't the "Direct" fare around about £16 without any discounts?

 

[yorkie]

Isn't the "Direct" fare around about £16 without any discounts?

Yes, he now is forced to pay the £16 pathetic "minimum fare". I suggest he contacts Northern. I also suggest you contact FGW about your increases, Liam.

If no-one complains they will be laughing at us, thinking they got away with it.

 

[yorkie]

We worked out that Max could save a few pence by purchasing the Off Peak route Any Permitted. This is set by NXEC and is valid at any time, and is slightly cheaper than the Anytime Route Direct. Not to mention it allows extra routes as well (via Donny, Leeds etc!) so is far better value and more useful.

I have also discovered that for some journeys in the West Midlands (an example is Hereford to Birmingham), an Off Peak Day is valid after 0830, but an Off Peak is valid after 0900. Yet in the North West, the Off Peak is valid at any time and the Off Peak Day is heavily restricted.

In other words the addition of the word "Day" sometimes makes the ticket valid earlier, and sometimes it doesn't make it valid until later.

It makes no sense.