Sir Nigel Gresley failure at Shrewsbury

[Brissle Girl]

Sir Nigel failed to reappear for this afternoon’s return trip to Bristol on the Saphos Welsh Marches Express. Crew said something about the brake blocks, but was all a bit vague.

I have to say, I don’t think I heard one apology from any of the onboard team for us not having steam for the return journey. I know these things happen, but at the very least you should acknowledge the disappointment of your customers who after all have gone on a trip marketed as Classic Steam.

A few other niggles with the onboard service (we were first non-dining), but that’s probably for another thread.

 

[Iskra]

I’d be interested to hear more about the service as I’m booked on a tour in First Non-Dining in a few weeks that’s supposed to have Sir Nigel Gresley on the front too. At least you got it in one direction though I agree that an acknowledgment of the issue and apology would be good customer service in that situation.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The snacks in first consisted of two packed boxes (one in each direction) with a very odd miscellany of items that looked as though they were randomly selected from what was left over after a fete or similar event. The breakfast one included a plastic wrapped croissant, that wouldn’t have been much flatter had it been run over by Sir Nigel.

We would have expected something like a simple choice of fresh croissants or pastries for breakfast, and maybe a simple cream tea later on. It wasn’t the dining option admittedly, but snacks are advertised, and for first we expected something a bit better than you would give a school party on a day out at the zoo.

We were welcomed on board by someone and they also came along to say goodbye before we left. In both cases they sounded scripted, with no effort to properly engage with us, ask us had we had a nice day or apologise for the problems. We didn’t see them the rest of the day. If that’s all they do all day then they might as well not bother, save the cost and reduce the price.

Oh, and the welcome fizz was a sickly bottle of Buck’s Fizz between two that would have cost around 1.50 per person in Tesco. Could they not have run to a half bottle of Prosecco each, or even just one poured glass of Prosecco.

 

[Iskra]

The snacks in first consisted of two packed boxes (one in each direction) with a very odd miscellany of items that looked as though they were randomly selected from what was left over after a fete or similar event. The breakfast one included a plastic wrapped croissant, that wouldn’t have been much flatter had it been run over by Sir Nigel.

We would have expected something like a simple choice of fresh croissants or pastries for breakfast, and maybe a simple cream tea later on. It wasn’t the dining option admittedly, but snacks are advertised, and for first we expected something a bit better than you would give a school party on a day out at the zoo.

We were welcomed on board by someone and they also came along to say goodbye before we left. In both cases they sounded scripted, with no effort to properly engage with us, ask us had we had a nice day or apologise for the problems. We didn’t see them the rest of the day. If that’s all they do all day then they might as well not bother, save the cost and reduce the price.

Oh, and the welcome fizz was a sickly bottle of Buck’s Fizz between two that would have cost around 1.50 per person in Tesco. Could they not have run to a half bottle of Prosecco each, or even just one poured glass of Prosecco.

Thank you. I found that post quite amusing! Yes, it does sound like the snack offering doesn’t quite match the product or ambience. Personally, I think I’d rather be left alone all day by the staff than they be over-bearing and over-officious as seems to be increasingly the case on railtours. It sounds like with the pre-packaged stuff that they are trying to deliver an extra product without any extra expense on staff.

Thanks for your comments, at least I can have my expectations at the right level for my trip and hopefully Sir Nigel is fixed by then too.

 

[Brissle Girl]

You’re welcome, and despite my comments I hope you enjoy your day out, and that Sir Nigel comes out to play and stays all day too!

 

[paul1609]

I don't do rail tours but as the non dining supplement for first class was only £20 over standard aren't your expectations a little high?

 

[Iskra]

I don't do rail tours but as the non dining supplement for first class was only £20 over standard aren't your expectations a little high?

Not when standard class is double what other operators charge!

 

[Brissle Girl]

I don't do rail tours but as the non dining supplement for first class was only £20 over standard aren't your expectations a little high?

That's a very fair point, and I hadn't picked up the small premium over standard class. But as @Iskra says, the standard class fare seems unduly high in comparison with other similar operators, whereas first is comparable. I'd also suggest the juxtaposition of a table with what I was expecting (sandwiches, scones etc) next to the description of the first class offering is highly misleading on their website. (The picture shows a nice cream tea all laid out).

Dining & Hospitality - Saphos

saphostrains.com

 

[12LDA28C]

The snacks in first consisted of two packed boxes (one in each direction) with a very odd miscellany of items that looked as though they were randomly selected from what was left over after a fete or similar event. The breakfast one included a plastic wrapped croissant, that wouldn’t have been much flatter had it been run over by Sir Nigel.

We would have expected something like a simple choice of fresh croissants or pastries for breakfast, and maybe a simple cream tea later on. It wasn’t the dining option admittedly, but snacks are advertised, and for first we expected something a bit better than you would give a school party on a day out at the zoo.

We were welcomed on board by someone and they also came along to say goodbye before we left. In both cases they sounded scripted, with no effort to properly engage with us, ask us had we had a nice day or apologise for the problems. We didn’t see them the rest of the day. If that’s all they do all day then they might as well not bother, save the cost and reduce the price.

Oh, and the welcome fizz was a sickly bottle of Buck’s Fizz between two that would have cost around 1.50 per person in Tesco. Could they not have run to a half bottle of Prosecco each, or even just one poured glass of Prosecco.

I guess you haven't been on a Saphos tour before, or indeed a Statesman. The snack boxes have been standard on both brands of tour since their inception and most passengers seem quite happy with those, in fact for people travelling for the first time they have often brought their own packed lunch to eat during the journey and are surprised to get anything free in the way of food.

On Statesman tours a hot bacon or sausage roll is available from the buffet (or via the at-seat service) for a reasonable charge but the full dining is where the proper food is at, as is to be expected. It's quite surprising you didn't see a steward all day since I assume there was one per coach to assist passengers on and off the train and on the many Statesman trips I've done they are constantly dispensing tea and coffee throughout the day, was this not the case on the Saphos yesterday?

 

[Deepgreen]

So, aside from flat croissants, what has happened to 60007?

 

[12LDA28C]

So, aside from flat croissants, what has happened to 60007?

It was reported on FB as a cracked brake block, which was replaced on the day although the decision was taken to use the diesel to continue the tour to keep delay to the train to a mimimum.

 

[paul1609]

Not when standard class is double what other operators charge!

Is the charge that high for a 440 mile return trip, 240 with steam (in theory) ? UK rail tours seem to be charging £120 for a plain vanilla run to Paignton behind a diesel. The cheapest advanced first via awc is over £90 each way Woking to Shrewsbury.

 

[Deepgreen]

It was reported on FB as a cracked brake block, which was replaced on the day although the decision was taken to use the diesel to continue the tour to keep delay to the train to a mimimum.

Thanks. Was the delay mitigation because the diesel could ostensibly travel faster? I can't see 60007 being permitted to be hauled at more than 75mph so probably very little real difference in speeds attained. Assuming the replaced brake block was straightforward, did it require 60007 to undergo a further FTRE? If not, I can't see what delay using it would have caused, bu I wasn't there (and I appreciate that you are just the messenger here), and don't know all the factors, of course. It seems a great shame to have displaced steam for the passengers who paid for it. Steam is not doing well of late, sadly.

 

[Iskra]

Is the charge that high for a 440 mile return trip, 240 with steam (in theory) ? UK rail tours seem to be charging £120 for a plain vanilla run to Paignton behind a diesel. The cheapest advanced first via awc is over £90 each way Woking to Shrewsbury.

WCRC, the nearest competitor, do £75 steam day trips in STD.

The overall price isn’t the issue, it’s how highly priced STD is in comparison to First which is the outlier in the industry, although in reality it’s only offered to have the appearance of having a standard class product and I should imagine many more punters go for First Class at the £20 surcharge. Why Saphos do this I don’t know, but a more transparent pricing system would be better in my opinion.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I guess you haven't been on a Saphos tour before, or indeed a Statesman. The snack boxes have been standard on both brands of tour since their inception and most passengers seem quite happy with those, in fact for people travelling for the first time they have often brought their own packed lunch to eat during the journey and are surprised to get anything free in the way of food.

On Statesman tours a hot bacon or sausage roll is available from the buffet (or via the at-seat service) for a reasonable charge but the full dining is where the proper food is at, as is to be expected. It's quite surprising you didn't see a steward all day since I assume there was one per coach to assist passengers on and off the train and on the many Statesman trips I've done they are constantly dispensing tea and coffee throughout the day, was this not the case on the Saphos yesterday?

No I haven't. It's the difference between what was provided and the photographs on their website next to the description of First Class (but not dining) which annoys me. Showing a picture of a cream tea feels like gross misrepresentation. I fully get that it's not the full dining option, which would be a full evening meal. If they are going to offer a snack box, show a picture of a snack box, not a cream tea.

As for stewards, someone greeted us as our steward when we joined with no more than a few words of welcome repeated parrot fashion, with a similar engagement just before we left. We didn't see them the rest of the journey. We did get a hot/drink service (although it was very sporadic).

Thanks. Was the delay mitigation because the diesel could ostensibly travel faster? I can't see 60007 being permitted to be hauled at more than 75mph so probably very little real difference in speeds attained. Assuming the replaced brake block was straightforward, did it require 60007 to undergo a further FTRE? If not, I can't see what delay using it would have caused, bu I wasn't there (and I appreciate that you are just the messenger here), and don't know all the factors, of course. It seems a great shame to have displaced steam for the passengers who paid for it. Steam is not doing well of late, sadly.

It was certainly a shame for those of us on the train, although we left nearly an hour late behind the diesel (which had fully made up time by we reached the GWML) , so any further delay would have made for a very late arrival back into Woking if steam hauled, and of course it would long have lost its path along the way.

There were two points to grumble about here. Firstly, we didn't get an apology for the lack of steam, were just told that it was going to be diesel hauled because of the issue, and "don't worry, we'll get you back on time". Well, I do worry, because I've paid for a steam tour, (the clue is in the name "Classic Steam"), so whilst I accept that these sort of things happen, I do think that the staff could have acknowledged our disappointment for not getting what we have paid for.

And that brings me on to the second point, which I think is general to all railtour operators. The attitude is "we'll sell you a steam tour, but if you don't get a full steam tour for whatever reason then tough, you don't get any refund". I find it hard to see how that is in line with Unfair Contracts Legislation when steam haulage is the primary purpose of the journey. I get that compensation for unfulfilled promises would ultimately have to be passed on in terms of ticket costs, but I would have thought some recompense should be offered if you don't get what you have paid for. (I wonder whether the SNG Trust compensated Saphos for the unfulfilled journey yesterday.)

 

[Iskra]

No I haven't. It's the difference between what was provided and the photographs on their website next to the description of First Class (but not dining) which annoys me. Showing a picture of a cream tea feels like gross misrepresentation. I fully get that it's not the full dining option, which would be a full evening meal. If they are going to offer a snack box, show a picture of a snack box, not a cream tea.

As for stewards, someone greeted us as our steward when we joined with no more than a few words of welcome repeated parrot fashion, with a similar engagement just before we left. We didn't see them the rest of the journey. We did get a hot/drink service (although it was very sporadic).


It was certainly a shame for those of us on the train, although we left nearly an hour late behind the diesel (which had fully made up time by we reached the GWML) , so any further delay would have made for a very late arrival back into Woking if steam hauled, and of course it would long have lost its path along the way.

There were two points to grumble about here. Firstly, we didn't get an apology for the lack of steam, were just told that it was going to be diesel hauled because of the issue, and "don't worry, we'll get you back on time". Well, I do worry, because I've paid for a steam tour, (the clue is in the name "Classic Steam"), so whilst I accept that these sort of things happen, I do think that the staff could have acknowledged our disappointment for not getting what we have paid for.

And that brings me on to the second point, which I think is general to all railtour operators. The attitude is "we'll sell you a steam tour, but if you don't get a full steam tour for whatever reason then tough, you don't get any refund". I find it hard to see how that is in line with Unfair Contracts Legislation when steam haulage is the primary purpose of the journey. I get that compensation for unfulfilled promises would ultimately have to be passed on in terms of ticket costs, but I would have thought some recompense should be offered if you don't get what you have paid for. (I wonder whether the SNG Trust compensated Saphos for the unfulfilled journey yesterday.)

I was once on a Steam Dreams tour, where diesel was substituted and they did a £20 refund, to their credit. (That was under the previous owner though)

 

[12LDA28C]

And that brings me on to the second point, which I think is general to all railtour operators. The attitude is "we'll sell you a steam tour, but if you don't get a full steam tour for whatever reason then tough, you don't get any refund". I find it hard to see how that is in line with Unfair Contracts Legislation when steam haulage is the primary purpose of the journey. I get that compensation for unfulfilled promises would ultimately have to be passed on in terms of ticket costs, but I would have thought some recompense should be offered if you don't get what you have paid for. (I wonder whether the SNG Trust compensated Saphos for the unfulfilled journey yesterday.)

Steam operation is not always within the control of the tour operator / promoter, for example a network-wide steam ban imposed by NR which has happened on many occasions. I very much doubt that in that situation, NR compensate the tour operator for the lack of steam haulage, so would you still expect a full or part refund at the expense of the tour operator/promoter for something they had no control over?

Did many other passengers you saw yesterday express disappointment at the non-appearance of the steam loco on the return and were they minded to ask for any kind of refund?

I was once on a Steam Dreams tour, where diesel was substituted and they did a £20 refund, to their credit. (That was under the previous owner though)

Diesel Dreams often make a bit of extra money by diesel fans booking at the last minute if they know the steam loco will not be available or there is a steam ban in place.

 

[bleeder4]

Sorry to hear it wasn't what you expected. Having looked at their website, I see what you are saying about the images they are using. I go on a lot of LSL tours (14 so far this year, next one on Wednesday) and am a big fan of those snack boxes. I could probably name every item in them. I even took a spare one home with me after one trip, gave it to my neighbour and it convinced her to book on a trip with them. Maybe I ought to work in their Marketing department! But at least now you know what to expect, should you book with them again. The service does get better as you do more trips and the staff get to know you. They all recognise me on sight now!

 

[12LDA28C]

Sorry to hear it wasn't what you expected. Having looked at their website, I see what you are saying about the images they are using. I go on a lot of LSL tours (14 so far this year, next one on Wednesday) and am a big fan of those snack boxes. I could probably name every item in them. I even took a spare one home with me after one trip, gave it to my neighbour and it convinced her to book on a trip with them. Maybe I ought to work in their Marketing department! But at least now you know what to expect, should you book with them again. The service does get better as you do more trips and the staff get to know you. They all recognise me on sight now!

Indeed. In my experience many people are regulars on their chosen brand of LSL tour and get to know the on-board staff on first name terms. They've always been friendly and helpful on the trains I've been on and they work incredibly long days.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Did many other passengers you saw yesterday express disappointment at the non-appearance of the steam loco on the return and were they minded to ask for any kind of refund?

A), Yes, B) Not that I heard, but then neither did I express that sentiment yesterday.

As for the steam ban issue, I agree that is tricky, but ultimately they are selling a tour for which the primary selling point is the steam haulage (as I've said, the clue is in the name "Classic Steam"). Other paying events subject to the vagaries of the weather take out insurance in the event that they are unable to provide the service offered (eg test matches).

 

[Lost property]

Well as a an almost normal I can partially understand your vexations, but, to be honest, I wouldn't even dream of going on such a journey...I've no interest in being fawned over and even less about the locomotive pulling the train.

Having said that, tours that go on freight lines, and through industrial areas not usually viewable / accessible would be of interest.

However, the point I wish to make is this.

Reading these forums, there seems to have been an excessive amount of "fails " (steam and diesel) this year. I could be wrong and the number is no higher / lower than in other years.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well as a an almost normal I can partially understand your vexations, but, to be honest, I wouldn't even dream of going on such a journey...I've no interest in being fawned over and even less about the locomotive pulling the train.

Having said that, tours that go on freight lines, and through industrial areas not usually viewable / accessible would be of interest.

However, the point I wish to make is this.

Reading these forums, there seems to have been an excessive amount of "fails " (steam and diesel) this year. I could be wrong and the number is no higher / lower than in other years.

From what you say, heritage tours are not your interest. I'm not sure about this year's failure rate, but my perception (only) is that there have been more. Of course the recent one with 'Britannia' was very severe, with the train arriving back in London at 0240! There have been a lot of delays involving steam workings which have not been the steam's fault directly, such as inadequate times allowed in the schedules (from NR) for watering or water carriers not being where they should be on time. It sounds as if the 60007 brake block issue was handled quite speedily and I still don't know why it could not have taken the train home (it wouldn't have been very much slower than the diesel).

 

[paul1609]

WCRC, the nearest competitor, do £75 steam day trips in STD.

The overall price isn’t the issue, it’s how highly priced STD is in comparison to First which is the outlier in the industry, although in reality it’s only offered to have the appearance of having a standard class product and I should imagine many more punters go for First Class at the £20 surcharge. Why Saphos do this I don’t know, but a more transparent pricing system would be better in my opinion.

But the typical WCRC steam trip (I'm taking Carnforth to Scarbprough) seems to be half the distance of the Welsh Marches. Using Carnforth as the base an equivalent trip would be to London with steam from Birmingham, how much would WCRC charge for that?
Saphos prices will reflect the composition of the rolling stock. At £20 more first is an upgrade from standard to fill unsold pullman dining seats. I don't think it's realistic to expect fresh croissants, 2 small bottles of wine, a cream tea and pullman style attention as well as a seat upgrade tbh. Its the Saphos equivalent of standard premium on Avanti. I agree the advertising is overselling the product.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I agree the advertising is overselling the product.

Yes, it's misrepresentation pure and simple. Which in any business is wrong.

 

[Titfield]

Yes, it's misrepresentation pure and simple. Which in any business is wrong.

If you are that convinced (and I am neither with you or against you as I have not seen the snack box or any other element of the experience purchased) may I suggest you complain formally to the operator and if that does not provide a satisfactory resolution make a formal complaint to Trading Standards.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If you are that convinced (and I am neither with you or against you as I have not seen the snack box or any other element of the experience purchased) may I suggest you complain formally to the operator and if that does not provide a satisfactory resolution make a formal complaint to Trading Standards.

I have indeed emailed my concern at the advertising to the operator. The comparison between the image on their website and what was offered is attached (there is a small plastic pot of peaches missing from the pack provided, as I had already eaten it by that point, but you get the idea!)

 

[Llanigraham]

I look at those two pictures and leap to the conclusion that there must be some people who have a very vivid imagnination!
The one on the left quite obviously shows an Afternoon Tea, the other a Snack Box. They are NOT comparable.
I would not expect the first if I'd ordered the second.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I look at those two pictures and leap to the conclusion that there must be some people who have a very vivid imagnination!
The one on the left quite obviously shows an Afternoon Tea, the other a Snack Box. They are NOT comparable.
I would not expect the first if I'd ordered the second.

Not sure what you mean. The image on the left is shown on the Saphos website next to the description of the First Class (non-dining) service. If you'd said, "I would not expect the second if I had ordered the first" then it would make more sense.

Anyway, I've laboured the point now, so will leave it there.

 

[Titfield]

Not sure what you mean. The image on the left is shown on the Saphos website next to the description of the First Class (non-dining) service. If you'd said, "I would not expect the second if I had ordered the first" then it would make more sense.

Anyway, I've laboured the point now, so will leave it there.

Hmm I will be interested to hear their reply as I can see two sides to the "argument".

 

[12LDA28C]

I look at those two pictures and leap to the conclusion that there must be some people who have a very vivid imagnination!
The one on the left quite obviously shows an Afternoon Tea, the other a Snack Box. They are NOT comparable.
I would not expect the first if I'd ordered the second.

You don't 'order' the snack box. It is provided free of charge to all first class passengers although you can 'order' a gluten-free version if you wish.