Sleeper service for the ECML.

[skyhigh]

Not a bad idea, would also mean that Sheffield gets a KGX service.

Who would want to board a sleeper at 3am?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Who would want to board a sleeper at 3am?

Those who need to be in London early, they would use normal seating.

No, platforms nowhere near long enough.

It wouldn't be a 16 carriage train.

Why would Sheffield need a King's Cross service when St. Pancras is next door?

You propose sending it to St Pancras then? It's much faster and would fill up the train, as well as meaning that it wouldn't just be waiting somewhere so that it doesn't arrive too early into KGX.

 

[The Planner]

Those who need to be in London early, they would use normal seating.


It wouldn't be a 16 carriage train.

Anyone who needs to be in London by 6am would stay overnight. If this sleeper is so much shorter you might as well heat the train by burning twenty pound notes.

 

[43096]

What other alternative is there for a service like this?

Don’t run it is the sensible alternative!

You don’t seem to be grasping the issues…

 

[Gwr12345]

Anyone who needs to be in London by 6am would stay overnight. If this sleeper is so much shorter you might as well heat the train by burning twenty pound notes.

On the plus side, would keep inflation down!

 

[RobShipway]

Those who need to be in London early, they would use normal seating.


It wouldn't be a 16 carriage train.


You propose sending it to St Pancras then? It's much faster and would fill up the train, as well as meaning that it wouldn't just be waiting somewhere so that it doesn't arrive too early into KGX.

For the service you are suggesting I don't think that you would be able to fill a three car class 175 unit.

I know many people that have looked at the prices of the sleeper service and found that it is cheaper to travel using a service in the evening, then stay at a Travelodge or Premier Inn than travel on the sleeper service. The price using the Sleeper service really needs to come down in price, so that it can effectively compete with the likes of Travelodge/Premier Inn.

 

[renegademaster]

It would make sense to run a 3-4 car EMU down the ECML every hour or two, night coaches get plenty of custom

 

[JonathanH]

It would make sense to run a 3-4 car EMU down the ECML every hour or two, night coaches get plenty of custom

A night coach that takes all night is more conducive to sleeping than a day train with bright lighting that arrives quickly. It can divert if there is engineering work.

It doesn't make any sense to run trains overnight on the ECML. Just leave it to coaches.

It is not in any way a failing of the railway in any sense that it doesn't provide niche services overnight that would lose money to operate.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Anyone who needs to be in London by 6am would stay overnight. If this sleeper is so much shorter you might as well heat the train by burning twenty pound notes.

Seating carriages on sleepers can be very cheap, sometimes cheaper than a budget hotel.

For the service you are suggesting I don't think that you would be able to fill a three car class 175 unit.

I know many people that have looked at the prices of the sleeper service and found that it is cheaper to travel using a service in the evening, then stay at a Travelodge or Premier Inn than travel on the sleeper service. The price using the Sleeper service really needs to come down in price, so that it can effectively compete with the likes of Travelodge/Premier Inn.

There is demand for a sleeper service, otherwise the Caledonian Sleeper and Night Rivera wouldn't exist.

 

[JonathanH]

Seating carriages on sleepers can be very cheap, sometimes cheaper than a budget hotel.

Cheaper and more practical to get a coach, both for the passenger, and the entity paying the rest of the fare. The subsidy that keeps the seating carriage cheap on a sleeper train is significant.

There is a valid, but limited market for overnight travel. Where it can be concentrated in the numbers that justify a train operating, it may be worthwhile to run a train. However, often it is much smaller than that.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I think an overnight/sleeper service of the cross country route calling at major locations such as Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh would I think have some merit.

Particularly calling at Birmingham which as been often suggested as a calling point for the WCML sleeper.
Birmingham to Scotland is about 5 hours during the day. I can imagine an overnight/sleeper could be designed to add an hour or so to make it a more acceptable sleep

 

[RobShipway]

Seating carriages on sleepers can be very cheap, sometimes cheaper than a budget hotel.


There is demand for a sleeper service, otherwise the Caledonian Sleeper and Night Rivera wouldn't exist.

But the demand is from stations that are longer distance away than the stations in the post that started this thread. The sleepers travel from London to Scotland or London to Cornwall. The distance to/from London to York, Newcastle, Doncaster and Peterborough is a lot shorter. There is very little demand and the cost for people from those places would be too high anyway for the services to pay. They would find it cheaper to get a service say from York or Newcastle at around 6pm and then stay overnight in a Premier Inn.

Cheaper and more practical to get a coach, both for the passenger, and the entity paying the rest of the fare. The subsidy that keeps the seating carriage cheap on a sleeper train is significant.

There is a valid, but limited market for overnight travel. Where it can be concentrated in the numbers that justify a train operating, it may be worthwhile to run a train. However, often it is much smaller than that.

I would have to agree with what @JonathanH says as well.

I think an overnight/sleeper service of the cross country route calling at major locations such as Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh would I think have some merit.

Particularly calling at Birmingham which as been often suggested as a calling point for the WCML sleeper.
Birmingham to Scotland is about 5 hours during the day. I can imagine an overnight/sleeper could be designed to add an hour or so to make it a more acceptable sleep

Having traveled up from Birmingham New Street at 1:30am in the morning back in the late 1970's to Edingburgh in Mk1 seated stock, I can say that it would have been more comfortable travelling in sleeper stock. However, that service I believe no longer exists as there is not the demand for it and I believe it got stopped back in the 1980's. Many people travelling either from Scotland to Birmingham or vice versa are more likely to find that it is cheaper to fly or use a coach service to Scotland, then sleep overnight in accommodation, than to be travelling in a sleeper service.

 

[YorkRailFan]

But the demand is from stations that are longer distance away than the stations in the post that started this thread. The sleepers travel from London to Scotland or London to Cornwall. The distance to/from London to York, Newcastle, Doncaster and Peterborough is a lot shorter. There is very little demand and the cost for people from those places would be too high anyway for the services to pay. They would find it cheaper to get a service say from York or Newcastle at around 6pm and then stay overnight in a Premier Inn.

A bonus to an ECML sleeper is that it means that passengers can get a full night's sleep.

I think an overnight/sleeper service of the cross country route calling at major locations such as Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh would I think have some merit.

Particularly calling at Birmingham which as been often suggested as a calling point for the WCML sleeper.
Birmingham to Scotland is about 5 hours during the day. I can imagine an overnight/sleeper could be designed to add an hour or so to make it a more acceptable sleep

Would there be capacity at a major station like New Street?

Cheaper and more practical to get a coach, both for the passenger, and the entity paying the rest of the fare. The subsidy that keeps the seating carriage cheap on a sleeper train is significant.

There is a valid, but limited market for overnight travel. Where it can be concentrated in the numbers that justify a train operating, it may be worthwhile to run a train. However, often it is much smaller than that.

I would argue that there is a demand for those who want a proper bed on a service like this, compared to a night bus. Not everyone wants to rough it on a bus, even though it is cheaper. Yes night buses have a market.

 

[popeter45]

But it wouldn't open up new markets because it would be stopping at those markets in the middle of the night. Passengers won't want cabins and the last thing anyone wants is for the seated coache to have either people travelling short distances, or frequent disturbance.

for the highlander the timing could work as would not be that late, maybe midnight

for lowlander could try sort out adding/removing carriages mid route but would be tricky to try sort out especally with how long the train would get, maybe if edinburgh and glasgow split at manchester instead of calstair then both travel ECML separately?

 

[30907]

A bonus to an ECML sleeper is that it means that passengers can get a full night's sleep.

Between which pairs of stations?

I would argue that there is a demand for those who want a proper bed on a service like this,

Yes, but how much? Given the relative catchment areas of the two routes, it would be about half that of Crewe/Preston (conurbations: W Mids/Manchester/Liverpool vs West/South Yorks), which itself is a small proportion of the sleeper loading.

That said, I suppose an upmarket York-Inverness sleeper might tap a specific tourist market in a way that a service with origin/destination London might find difficult because of timings. Making it pay would be a challenge though, to put it mildly.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is demand for a sleeper service, otherwise the Caledonian Sleeper and Night Rivera wouldn't exist.

A bonus to an ECML sleeper is that it means that passengers can get a full night's sleep.

Please try to understand, its quite simple.

1) The sleeper already exists for its main market, which is travelling between London and Scotland. There is demand for that - about 450 people a night each way.

2) Passengers using the sleepers between London and Scotland already can get a full night’s sleep (for those that can sleep on them).

3) passengers from intermediate ECML stations such as Newcastle and York would not be getting a full night’s sleep, as they would be boarding or alighting sometime between 0130 and 0430

4) the market for overnight travel to and from these places is small. It appears there are three coaches most nights from Newcastle to London, and one of those arrives at Victoria coach station after the first three morning trains have arrived at Kings Cross. These coaches stop en route from Scotland to London, and carry passengers from (variously) Aberdeen, Dundee, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Leeds and Nottingham to London. I‘d be surprised if there are more than 40 passengers a night from Tyneside / Teeside / Yorkshire (and the same the other way)

5) The coach will almost always be cheaper than the train for very obvious reasons. Typical fares are £20-£40. For similarly very obvious reasons, not all existing coach passengers making this journey will switch to the train.


So, if you are suggesting running an additinal sleeper service, at a cost of not less than £10m pa, to chase maybe 15,000 passengers a year and revenue of perhaps £0.5m pa, then the very best of luck in your business ventures.

 

[A S Leib]

No, platforms nowhere near long enough.

What's the longest Stirling and Perth can take (although that only really helps if you're planning on running a northern WCML–Dundee / Aberdeen and Inverness service and don't want to reverse at Edinburgh, and if you're dealing with splitting trains I'd guess that reversals are less of an inconvenience than normal)?

 

[zwk500]

I think what this thread neatly encapsulates is the unstoppable force of an enthusiast's optimism against the immovable object of the real-world practicalities.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Between which pairs of stations?

Yes, but how much? Given the relative catchment areas of the two routes, it would be about half that of Crewe/Preston (conurbations: W Mids/Manchester/Liverpool vs West/South Yorks), which itself is a small proportion of the sleeper loading.

That said, I suppose an upmarket York-Inverness sleeper might tap a specific tourist market in a way that a service with origin/destination London might find difficult because of timings. Making it pay would be a challenge though, to put it mildly.

Between Glasgow and KGX.


I would say perhaps 8 carriages, 3 sleeping, 3 Couchette and 2 seating.

Please try to understand, its quite simple.

1) The sleeper already exists for its main market, which is travelling between London and Scotland. There is demand for that - about 450 people a night each way.

2) Passengers using the sleepers between London and Scotland already can get a full night’s sleep (for those that can sleep on them).

3) passengers from intermediate ECML stations such as Newcastle and York would not be getting a full night’s sleep, as they would be boarding or alighting sometime between 0130 and 0430

4) the market for overnight travel to and from these places is small. It appears there are three coaches most nights from Newcastle to London, and one of those arrives at Victoria coach station after the first three morning trains have arrived at Kings Cross. These coaches stop en route from Scotland to London, and carry passengers from (variously) Aberdeen, Dundee, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Leeds and Nottingham to London. I‘d be surprised if there are more than 40 passengers a night from Tyneside / Teeside / Yorkshire (and the same the other way)

5) The coach will almost always be cheaper than the train for very obvious reasons. Typical fares are £20-£40. For similarly very obvious reasons, not all existing coach passengers making this journey will switch to the train.


So, if you are suggesting running an additinal sleeper service, at a cost of not less than £10m pa, to chase maybe 15,000 passengers a year and revenue of perhaps £0.5m pa, then the very best of luck in your business ventures.

Oh I understand this, it's was just a hypothetical idea.

 

[Bald Rick]

Between Glasgow and KGX.

There is already a sleeper between Glasgow and the Euston Road that offeres passenegrs a full night’s sleep. You can do it tomorrow for £225.

And if you say that’s too expensive, well there is a total of 16 rooms left Glasgow - London for the rest of this month (the cheapest is £210), that means that around 600 rooms have been sold at that sort of price. And that sort of price isnt enough to stop the operation require a massive subsidy per journey, nor Serco making a loss over and above the subsidy of around £15,000 per day (night).

 

[YorkRailFan]

There is already a sleeper between Glasgow and the Euston Road that offeres passenegrs a full night’s sleep. You can do it tomorrow for £225.

And if you say that’s too expensive, well there is a total of 16 rooms left Glasgow - London for the rest of this month (the cheapest is £210), that means that around 600 rooms have been sold at that sort of price. And that sort of price isnt enough to stop the operation require a massive subsidy per journey, nor Serco making a loss over and above the subsidy of around £15,000 per day (night).

I would say that £225 for a room is great value.

 

[A S Leib]

I would say that £225 for a room is great value.

It's far over what I'd be willing to pay for a room myself unless absolutely necessary; £190 with a railcard and factoring in £30+ saved from not buying a separate train ticket (£79 for a Euston–Glasgow off-peak single with a railcard) makes it not seem absurdly expensive to me.

 

[zwk500]

I would say that £225 for a room is great value.

Bear in mind that for every £1 in fares the Sleeper takes, it is subsidised by approximately £1.

 

[popeter45]

There is already a sleeper between Glasgow and the Euston Road that offeres passenegrs a full night’s sleep. You can do it tomorrow for £225.

And if you say that’s too expensive, well there is a total of 16 rooms left Glasgow - London for the rest of this month (the cheapest is £210), that means that around 600 rooms have been sold at that sort of price. And that sort of price isnt enough to stop the operation require a massive subsidy per journey, nor Serco making a loss over and above the subsidy of around £15,000 per day (night).

that really just highlights more about the inefficencies that currently exist in the cally sleeper service
if a 246 seat 5 car voyager can turn a profit for a trip why cant a 304 bed 16 car sleeper?
they are full most nights so focusing on capacity with couchettes rather than hotel on wheels would have helped massively

 

[zwk500]

if a 246 seat 5 car voyager can turn a profit for a trip why cant a 304 bed 16 car sleeper?

I'd imagine the primary reason is the relative staff costs.

 

[JonathanH]

if a 246 seat 5 car voyager can turn a profit for a trip why cant a 304 bed 16 car sleeper?

Firstly, the 5-car Voyager may not actually make a profit. Secondly, it can be used for multiple trips over the course of a day. Third, it doesn't have as many staff. Fourth, it is shorter and therefore easier to maintain and operate.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's far over what I'd be willing to pay for a room myself unless absolutely necessary; £190 with a railcard and factoring in £30+ saved from not buying a separate train ticket (£79 for a Euston–Glasgow off-peak single with a railcard) makes it not seem absurdly expensive to me.

I too would use a railcard.

 

[6Gman]

Bounds Green?


Glasgow.


Not a bad idea, would also mean that Sheffield gets a KGX service.


What other alternative is there for a service like this?


Capacity would be an issue on the line, especially in the Birmingham area.

Having a sleeper service calling somewhere at 3 in the morning is a terrible idea.

Having paid a handsome fare who on earth wants to be getting out of bed at 2.30, or getting off to sleep at 3.30?

Sleeper services work if you can get in your berth no later than around midnight, and allowed to stay there until at least six in the morning.

And they still lose money hand over fist.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Having a sleeper service calling somewhere at 3 in the morning is a terrible idea.

Having paid a handsome fare who on earth wants to be getting out of bed at 2.30, or getting off to sleep at 3.30?

Sleeper services work if you can get in your berth no later than around midnight, and allowed to stay there until at least six in the morning.

And they still lose money hand over fist.

Night Rivera stops at Exeter at 3am.

 

[bingleybong]

TBH from the rail enthusiast point of view we should be glad somthing so patently absurd as the present sleepers still exists. I used (in seated) the ECML sleepers of the late 80s (I think they took them off during electrification never to return) and they were not busy and even with the first class stock then used were not conducive to comfort in seated. With the very early trains off Newcastle now possible I see no reason why I would ever use them.