• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Snow Service Changes 25/02/18 onwards.

Status
Not open for further replies.

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,761
On the contrary I think "Southerners" (joe public) have plenty of perspective as to what bad weather is, and it's the bureaucrats at NR and TOCs who don't.

I think its more, when the Railway ignores weather warnings and tries to run a full service which falls apart, they get a wet fish slapped around their face, people saying this is not good enough, you were warned of bad weather, but when they do listen and plan ahead, but snow not as heavy in some places as others, still get a slap of a wet fish because they did listen and act on the warnings

Anyone recall the bad winter in the 70's BR (Kent) hired in the Scottish snow blower, ran it all the way down at 40mph, and cleared the S.E division, they then paid millions and bought their own for future use, never turned a wheel for years, in the end flogged off to a European Railway :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

theking

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2011
Messages
626
TFL rail's response was comedic.

There was no need what so ever to continue to implement the time table once they realised it wasn't as bad as first thought.

Fair enough put an emergency time table up but when the situation changes cancel it the central line managed at 0600 why couldn't tfl rail.

They have the units and the drivers who were supposed to be working the diagrams why have them sitting in the mess being spare instead of getting units out
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,143
I think more campaigns need to be carried out to raise the public awareness of how uneconomical it is to have more resulliance to snow given how little or falls. It does a or of the public are unaware. They do public announcements for other things.
Notable that in the bad old days of BR, when public financial support was a small fraction of what it is nowadays, the resilience was able to run to proper snowploughs at all key depots (generally fashioned out of old steam loco tenders - but Network Rail don't do anything that is not brand new purchase and jumps through 24 hoops of a procurement process). There were point heaters, electric or gas, which now seem to have be drastically reduced in number in later remodellings. There were PW gangs with shovels (the latter an amazing piece of technology). There were porters on stations also with shovels, who did not suffer from the turf war I understand there is now between TOC and NR that no snow is to be shovelled from TOC platform onto NR rails. There were all night de-icing trains run continuously without any argument between TOC and NR over who if anyone should pay for them.

I could go on ...
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,429
Location
Ely
GN and GA now say they are resuming normal service for the rest of today, and tomorrow.

So no doubt the snow will really start here now :-/
 

al78

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2013
Messages
2,432
The proper snow isn't due until Thursday/Friday. It remains to be seen whether it will be as bad as forecast and how much disruption it will cause.
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
The "good old days" had their place and time. As things stand, NR dealt with the situation as it was placed to do the circumstances. Doubtlessly in my view a nationalised BR would have had to decide whether to risk running a full service or not within the realities of 21st century Britain.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,638
Notable that in the bad old days of BR, when public financial support was a small fraction of what it is nowadays, the resilience was able to run to proper snowploughs at all key depots (generally fashioned out of old steam loco tenders - but Network Rail don't do anything that is not brand new purchase and jumps through 24 hoops of a procurement process). There were point heaters, electric or gas, which now seem to have be drastically reduced in number in later remodellings. There were PW gangs with shovels (the latter an amazing piece of technology). There were porters on stations also with shovels, who did not suffer from the turf war I understand there is now between TOC and NR that no snow is to be shovelled from TOC platform onto NR rails. There were all night de-icing trains run continuously without any argument between TOC and NR over who if anyone should pay for them.

I could go on ...

This is 2018. In the South East in particular 50 or 100 mile commutes for train crews at least are not unusual. You don't just send the knocker upper out. I live over 10 miles from my depot and I'm not one of the furthest out.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
Notable that in the bad old days of BR, when public financial support was a small fraction of what it is nowadays, the resilience was able to run to proper snowploughs at all key depots (generally fashioned out of old steam loco tenders - but Network Rail don't do anything that is not brand new purchase and jumps through 24 hoops of a procurement process). There were point heaters, electric or gas, which now seem to have be drastically reduced in number in later remodellings. There were PW gangs with shovels (the latter an amazing piece of technology). There were porters on stations also with shovels, who did not suffer from the turf war I understand there is now between TOC and NR that no snow is to be shovelled from TOC platform onto NR rails. There were all night de-icing trains run continuously without any argument between TOC and NR over who if anyone should pay for them.

I could go on ...

I've not been slow to criticise the railway industry on numerous occasions but generally speaking I think they've done a pretty good job during this cold snap.
 

Hearadh

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2011
Messages
19
Notable that in the bad old days of BR, when public financial support was a small fraction of what it is nowadays, the resilience was able to run to proper snowploughs at all key depots (generally fashioned out of old steam loco tenders - but Network Rail don't do anything that is not brand new purchase and jumps through 24 hoops of a procurement process). There were point heaters, electric or gas, which now seem to have be drastically reduced in number in later remodellings. There were PW gangs with shovels (the latter an amazing piece of technology). There were porters on stations also with shovels, who did not suffer from the turf war I understand there is now between TOC and NR that no snow is to be shovelled from TOC platform onto NR rails. There were all night de-icing trains run continuously without any argument between TOC and NR over who if anyone should pay for them.

I could go on ...
You have concisely summarised what is wrong with today's railway coupled with, hi-tech electric rolling stock which will not tolerate intermittent power supply occasioned by snow and ice on the conductor rail without grinding to halt because the computer doesn't like it so shuts various components down, it is small wonder that the decision to cancel trains is taken. The unit then becomes a failure begging the question of recovery it being virtually a certainty that a rescue unit will lay down as well.
Glad I'm retired. Someone else's problem now.
 

notverydeep

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2014
Messages
890
I think the bigger problem is folks moaning about how silly, soft southerners have no perspective on weather. That attitude is entirely unhelpful, like all this nonsense about how nobody in the UK understands bad weather because of how bad Scandinavian countries have it. It's totally irrelevant.

There is less frequent snow and ice in London and the Home Counties than in the North and Scotland, no doubt. However, this means that people and infrastructure are both less prepared to cope when it does arrive; it's entirely reasonable and expected that this should be the case. The intensity with which infrastructure in London is used is also substantially higher, meaning that failures have larger impacts and more knock-on effects.

Much of the disruption that occurs during snowy episodes is a consequence of the actions of or statements made by the emergency services. Over the last few decades, it has become apparent to them, that road accidents, deaths and injuries spike during heavy snow episodes, the additional hazards and unfamiliar population make that inevitable. This of course drives up their workload at a time when they (like everyone else) find working more difficult. They are targeted to minimise accidents such and injuries, but they are not accountable for the loss of productivity or disruption to the economy. This means that they have a strong incentive to ‘advise against travel’, even when the impact on the wider economy might suggest a higher threshold (i.e. worse conditions) should be reached before issuing this advice.

This advice then sets off a chain reaction. School children for example may mostly have short walkable journeys, but a teacher coming 10 miles can legitimately take account of such advice. Faced with a likelihood of either too few staff members and possible last minute closure, schools are then incentivised to make a decision to close (possibly before the snow arrives) to avoid unnecessary journeys where other members of staff and parents discover that a school is closed on arrival. At this stage all sorts of people (including railway staff) face both advice not to travel and in many cases a need to provide unplanned child care and thus the working day grinds rapidly to a halt.

In addition to this, railway companies have also discovered that making a huge effort to operate immediately after heavy snow fall only succeeds in turning an abandoned day into a very disrupted one. They can be forgiven for asking, “why take the risks involved when heroic effort to keep things going will still look rubbish to the media?”

For those who say we used to do better in BR days, I would acknowledge that this is probably true, but at least a bit easier with one controlling organisation directing all staff (all hands to the pumps as others have said). The downside is that the people travelling or working to enabling travel were clearly put at a greater level of risk (taking account of the road journeys to / from the station) than is now accepted, while the incentives working on the multiple organisations involved in today’s rail industry give them little reason to make a huge effort.

(This is taken from a longer post to an earlier similar thread - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/snow-and-what-happens-if-it-comes.156954/page-4#post-3211171)
 

LLivery

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
London
Surely the infrastructure is largely similar across the UK? As for people, it's not like the north has snow day in, day out in winter-just 3 or 4 times a year. I don't therefore think people are particularly better prepared, but they do seem to have a greater attitude of just quietly getting on with it.

Contrary to what many Northerners believe we really aren't that "soft". We aren't all posh, Tory voters or apparently drink shandy.
Anyway, the third rail region is an obvious difference compared to Scotland & the North. Scotland is well prepared but obviously gets far more snow than us down south.
 

Three-Nine

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2015
Messages
110
We run a reduced service due to the prospect of snow, meanwhile in Japan....

HTHVemA.jpg

In Japan, where heavy snowfall is a more regular feature of the climate - an annual event lasting for weeks depending on the region - snowfall does cause problems there. There was a recent story of a train stuck in - admittedly very heavy - snowfall overnight with reportedly a few hundred people on board, whilst at least the past couple of years heavy snowfall has caused transport problems (including shinkansen services) in the Tokyo area in December/January (I know this because I keep an eye on Japanese news, having an interest in the region). Granted, the snowfall is much heavier and over a more protracted period than is typical in the UK but the "fact" that it never causes issues is a bit of a myth.
 

High Dyke

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2013
Messages
4,287
Location
Yellabelly Country
I think it would generate a little more understanding with the general public if the points were designed to be a little more resilient in the first place !
It isn't the actual points. It is the contingency plan to maintain a service on an important cross country route, although it does sacrifice other routes. The priority, in the greater context, is so that the ECML would remain unadulterated by the services operated by EMT that may have an effect at Grantham.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Can we all take a step back, gasp for some deep breaths, and have some perspective please.

Please be reminded of the title of this thread "Snow Service Changes 25/02/18 onwards". Mature and sensible discussions on related issues please.

For example, this means no silly arguments such as resilience between north and south because it is a pointless argument, and useless to anyone reading the thread looking for information. The north is just as likely to fall victim to weather conditions as the south and it is not too difficult for any informed individual to fetch relevant data out.

Always remember, forecasting is not an exact science. It is much easier sitting in front of a computer and criticise with the help of hindsight than having to make on-the-spot decisions in an ever changing operating environment. Food for thought.

To further clarify, criticism and moaning about the situation is absolutely fine, but please keep it sensible. Frustration is understandable and no handling is 100% perfect. There are always things which could be improved on.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,805
Location
Herts
Notable that in the bad old days of BR, when public financial support was a small fraction of what it is nowadays, the resilience was able to run to proper snowploughs at all key depots (generally fashioned out of old steam loco tenders - but Network Rail don't do anything that is not brand new purchase and jumps through 24 hoops of a procurement process). There were point heaters, electric or gas, which now seem to have be drastically reduced in number in later remodellings. There were PW gangs with shovels (the latter an amazing piece of technology). There were porters on stations also with shovels, who did not suffer from the turf war I understand there is now between TOC and NR that no snow is to be shovelled from TOC platform onto NR rails. There were all night de-icing trains run continuously without any argument between TOC and NR over who if anyone should pay for them.

I could go on ...

With you on this - BR made it very clear that all staff - even if they could not get into their normal place of work , were expected to go to their local station and offer their services. To be used to whatever was needed. This is how (being rules and regs trained and classed as a competent person) , I ended up clearing points at Wimbledon in 1987 , digging out a stalled C69 stock stalled outside the station and generally co-ordinating up to the last service train. I actually enjoyed a return to the basic railway - having been office bound for a few years. Agreed there was a minimal service , but the travelling public appreciated the effort. Did this several times since - most recently not being allowed or passed on safety critical duties , but de-icing 319 service trains and snow clearance on platforms was OK.

Trouble is today - this , by and large does not happen for all sorts of (contractual) reasons.
 

Alfie1014

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2012
Messages
1,128
Location
Essex
Both NR and GA have issued this evening an abject apology https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tra...date-tuesday-27-februarywednesday-28-february (sorry can’t cut and paste extract from iPad).

But I do think that the root of the problem in Anglia was lack of experience in NR which combined with the organisation’s risk aversion. If the Network provider pulls the plug the operators can only do so much and they did push back and get some additional access last night for example. I assume decisions like these are delegated to the routes, which is all well and good but there seems to be little way in respect of a controlling mind at least questioning decisions which have a real impact on users. I hope there’s a suitable post-mortem once the white stuff has melted.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,805
Location
Herts
Both NR and GA have issued this evening an abject apology https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tra...date-tuesday-27-februarywednesday-28-february (sorry can’t cut and paste extract from iPad).

But I do think that the root of the problem in Anglia was lack of experience in NR which combined with the organisation’s risk aversion. If the Network provider pulls the plug the operators can only do so much and they did push back and get some additional access last night for example. I assume decisions like these are delegated to the routes, which is all well and good but there seems to be little way in respect of a controlling mind at least questioning decisions which have a real impact on users. I hope there’s a suitable post-mortem once the white stuff has melted.

Good point - there are / or should be contingency plans / "key route strategies" - i.e minimising crossing moves etc and an amended timetable and so on.

Of course , all should be reviewed by the DfT as part of the monthly franchise meetings. There is a huge wealth of practical operational knowledge there of course (pause for hollow laughter)

This does not demean the efforts made on the ground and in TOC land in this awful , freezing weather. Hope someone looks out for freight in all this.....
 

Wombat

Member
Joined
12 Jul 2013
Messages
299
I've not been slow to criticise the railway industry on numerous occasions but generally speaking I think they've done a pretty good job during this cold snap.
I agree, I enjoy complaining about the railway as much as the next commuter but I haven't had anything to complain about this week. My train got stranded at Wimbledon this morning but that's because someone was taken ill. And I slipped and knackered my shoulder outside Fenchurch street this afternoon, but that was my own fault and I only mention it here in the vague hope of some undeserved sympathy.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,805
Location
Herts
I agree, I enjoy complaining about the railway as much as the next commuter but I haven't had anything to complain about this week. My train got stranded at Wimbledon this morning but that's because someone was taken ill. And I slipped and knackered my shoulder outside Fenchurch street this afternoon, but that was my own fault and I only mention it here in the vague hope of some undeserved sympathy.

Sympathy - not a good day for you , but you made it to work ...
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,805
Location
Herts
Notwithstanding that it might get worse as the week goes on, I think you mistyped "normal British winter weather".

Yes - we had some quite similar weather conditions in the past - I do think though this week is pretty dire for cold , but then I was out in -17 several nights in East Anglia in 1981 / 1982* and of course the bad one of 1987.

!979 / 80 was bad enough - before that I was comfortably either in school or university. My father of course lived and worked through 1940 / 1947 and 1963 which were pretty well "extreme events" ....


* Reduced to using 4x37's and an 08 to dig out an urgent Felixstowe to Swansea Freightlner from Ipswich Yard - frozen disc brakes and iced up rails. Never have I been so cold.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
I agree, I enjoy complaining about the railway as much as the next commuter but I haven't had anything to complain about this week. My train got stranded at Wimbledon this morning but that's because someone was taken ill. And I slipped and knackered my shoulder outside Fenchurch street this afternoon, but that was my own fault and I only mention it here in the vague hope of some undeserved sympathy.

Yes we all enjoy a good old whinge now and again, I had a slip in the snow as well but the only damage was to my self respect, hope the shoulder isn't too painful.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,186
Location
Airedale
Both NR and GA have issued this evening an abject apology https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tra...date-tuesday-27-februarywednesday-28-february (sorry can’t cut and paste extract from iPad).

Here's the quote: "We apologise for the disruption suffered by passengers across our network today, as a result of the reduced service and service suspensions introduced in the light of the forecast severe weather. We fully recognise the inconvenience caused to your plans. The wintry conditions predicted meant that both Network Rail and Greater Anglia needed to prepare for the worst.

However, as the expected snowfall only materialised on a localised basis, we are now in the process of restoring a near normal service across our network for the rest of today, with trains due to run right through to the normal last services (though there will still be some alterations and cancellations). For more details, please check on the live departures and arrivals section of the website for individual services."

I don't consider that abject, but measured.

I agree that implementing the emergency plan across the whole region seemed excessive in the light of the weather forecast by 1800 yesterday, and in general terms it seems draconian even for the affected areas (effectively the GEML).
However, on the other side of the Thames (where I happen to be today!) SE attempted to operate more or less normally and somewhere East of Gillingham it went pear-shaped late morning, the worst delay I have spotted being 160min. The Chatham Main Line is still running up to 50 late...
As has been said so often, "dammed if you do..."
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,249
Notable that in the bad old days of BR, when public financial support was a small fraction of what it is nowadays, the resilience was able to run to proper snowploughs at all key depots (generally fashioned out of old steam loco tenders - but Network Rail don't do anything that is not brand new purchase and jumps through 24 hoops of a procurement process). There were point heaters, electric or gas, which now seem to have be drastically reduced in number in later remodellings. There were PW gangs with shovels (the latter an amazing piece of technology). There were porters on stations also with shovels, who did not suffer from the turf war I understand there is now between TOC and NR that no snow is to be shovelled from TOC platform onto NR rails. There were all night de-icing trains run continuously without any argument between TOC and NR over who if anyone should pay for them.

I could go on ...

If you can provide details of any sets of points in main lines that has been installed in the past 20 years without points heating, I'd be glad to hear about it. I have been involved in the installation of well over 1000 sets in that time, and not one of them is without heating.

As for all the other stuff: gangs with shovels, night deicing trains, station staff with brushes to keep doors clear, station staff with shovels to clear the platforms (and quite rightly not onto the tracks), it all still happens.

You have concisely summarised what is wrong with today's railway coupled with, hi-tech electric rolling stock which will not tolerate intermittent power supply occasioned by snow and ice on the conductor rail without grinding to halt because the computer doesn't like it so shuts various components down, it is small wonder that the decision to cancel trains is taken. The unit then becomes a failure begging the question of recovery it being virtually a certainty that a rescue unit will lay down as well.
Glad I'm retired. Someone else's problem now.

Yes those new trains are awful. In other news those terrible Class 700s have run a full evening peak on Thameslink tonight, at a punctuality leaving the core of 93% right time. (right time, not 0-5). My seat was comfy too.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,889
Location
Central Belt
Looking at the situation this morning on Great Northern, were all the staff that should have operated trains available? Understand that trains would be displaced, but interested to know why trains could not be reinstated? For example first train out of Cambridge was 0723. When it was discovered there was no snow, did we have a situation where at Cambridge we had trains and crew but they couldn't operate them as it took a long time for full service to resume.

The north -v- south comparison is interesting. In Scotland lines such as Edinburgh - Glasgow have an intensive service, but I don't many have an service as intense as many of the routes into the London Terminals. A 5 minutes delay snowballs quickly.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,450
The north -v- south comparison is interesting. In Scotland lines such as Edinburgh - Glasgow have an intensive service, but I don't many have an service as intense as many of the routes into the London Terminals. A 5 minutes delay snowballs quickly.

And, of course, if the first train drops 10 minutes because of the conditions, and the next is initially delayed by the first train and then drops another 10" because of the conditions, and the third ....

And an hour into the timetable trains are consistently 60+ late, the unit diagrams are all over the shop, and the traincrew diagrams are an exercise in optimism ...

That's why you thin out the service.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top