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So who are these 'faceless' decision makers at the DfT and why are they not held accountable to the public?

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LNW-GW Joint

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Since when did Mr Lamont make it to the top anyway !
In his time at the Treasury, Norman Lamont gave us St Pancras International, which led to a revamp of King's Cross and its hinterland.
He forced the HS1 route to come in through Essex as Arup proposed, rather than via south London as planned by BR.
I think that was a good idea overall, others might disagree.
 
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Fleetmaster

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Labour have repeatedly committed to building HS2 and renationalising the railways under Haigh
Afaik they have only ever said they would build hs2 to the original budget, so it is hardly a ringing endorsement now reality has set in. And I think they gave only ever said they would renationalise as franchises expired, which was never going to happen within a Parliament. Quite what their position is now, is up for debate. It certainly doesn't seem to be a priority, it hasn't been mentioned at all since Starmer won as far as I recall.
 

185

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Perhaps it's for a wider discussion, but I do wonder with the current shenanigans with Dominic Raab being accused of bullying, how in a similar fashion Transport Secretaries and Ministers have handled similar clashes with supposedly 'neutral' DfT civil servants.

- For example, asked those (executive / director) civil servants to do something which follows their government's policy, civil servants disagree then do the absolute opposite.
- Or, in the case of some less knowledgeable politicians (Shapps?) civil servants have pretty much dictated what they want to the ministers - eg. the bus steering the driver.

My opinion, but these civil servants seem very close to private contractors in all levels of the railway.
 

Krokodil

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Annuality in budgets doesn't help.

The big driver though is the five year election cycle. Politicians want to get reelected. That frankly disadvantages long-term investment as the electorate rarely votes for jam tomorrow.
How have other countries managed it? The Swiss hold referendums of course, but what about France and Germany?
Politically motivated? Not at all, we are now into the 4th year without a payrise, the sticking points being all the strings attached to the increases, also the RDG/DfT wasting months and months thinking a one size fits all proposals to numerous TOCs with massively varying terms and conditions.
You misunderstand me. The "politically motivated" bit was directed at the ministers (particularly Shapps) who wanted their 1984 moment no matter what it cost the country to do so.
 

Wolfie

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Perhaps it's for a wider discussion, but I do wonder with the current shenanigans with Dominic Raab being accused of bullying, how in a similar fashion Transport Secretaries and Ministers have handled similar clashes with supposedly 'neutral' DfT civil servants.

- For example, asked those (executive / director) civil servants to do something which follows their government's policy, civil servants disagree then do the absolute opposite.
- Or, in the case of some less knowledgeable politicians (Shapps?) civil servants have pretty much dictated what they want to the ministers - eg. the bus steering the driver.

My opinion, but these civil servants seem very close to private contractors in all levels of the railway.
Re your first supposed example do you have any evidence that any such thing ever happened or are you hypothesising?
 

class 9

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How have other countries managed it? The Swiss hold referendums of course, but what about France and Germany?

You misunderstand me. The "politically motivated" bit was directed at the ministers (particularly Shapps) who wanted their 1984 moment no matter what it cost the country to do so.
Ah OK, apologies. Yes I agree, Shapps in particular on national TV blatantly lying, saying the dispute was between the companies & the unions, this despite being clearly set out in the NRCs that the companies can't do anything without permission of the DfT and/or Secretary of State.
 

Starmill

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That’s rather unfair on Conrad.

In my experience there is no one in the DfT who is advocating reducing the size of the network. Those that I know have spent much of the past 18 months frantically working out how to minimise the impact on passengers of the budget settlement. To be frank I think they’ve done a pretty good job in the circumstances, as the potential alternatives don’t bear thinking about. I don’t think anyone commenting on this thread would have done any better.
Depends on what you mean by the impact on passengers. Personally, I'd say it impacts passengers more in the long run spending money running pointless services which are of no use to anyone, just so that we don't face the 'C word' in the media. The Brigg line going from six services per week to ten, but with sales being cut from very low to near zero is an excellent case in point. If a service that isn't actually useful to someone can't be run, no service should be run at all, and the money spent elsewhere. Same goes for subsidising the bus industry to do the job better than the railway - they're not the Department for Trains after all, as the Secretary of State reminds us.
 

yorksrob

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Depends on what you mean by the impact on passengers. Personally, I'd say it impacts passengers more in the long run spending money running pointless services which are of no use to anyone, just so that we don't face the 'C word' in the media. The Brigg line going from six services per week to ten, but with sales being cut from very low to near zero is an excellent case in point. If a service that isn't actually useful to someone can't be run, no service should be run at all, and the money spent elsewhere. Same goes for subsidising the bus industry to do the job better than the railway - they're not the Department for Trains after all, as the Secretary of State reminds us.

Surely the point about the Brigg line is that no ones attempted to run a useful service in the modern era, so there's not been a reasonable assessment of whether a proper service would be useful to anyone.
 

Starmill

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Surely the point about the Brigg line is that no ones attempted to run a useful service in the modern era, so there's not been a reasonable assessment of whether a proper service would be useful to anyone.
The existing limited service isn't useless though, although it's poorly used. The new service will be entirely useless.
 

yorksrob

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The existing limited service isn't useless though, although it's poorly used. The new service will be entirely useless.

Fair point. Whatever service it has needs to be useful. Even the old Saturday service could be useful on those days.
 

Starmill

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Fair point. Whatever service it has needs to be useful. Even the old Saturday service could be useful on those days.
Yes that's what's running this last few weeks. Gone from the change date however. Same for the weekday peak extras, which are long-standing as far as Retford and have been extended to Gainsborough Central since 2019. Now all consigned to history.
 

yorksrob

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Yes that's what's running this last few weeks. Gone from the change date however. Same for the weekday peak extras, which are long-standing as far as Retford and have been extended to Gainsborough Central since 2019. Now all consigned to history.

Terrible, but not unsurprising given the Governments desperation for cuts.

My local Castleford - Huddersfield service is apparently due to suffer the same fate.
 

Krokodil

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The existing limited service isn't useless though, although it's poorly used. The new service will be entirely useless.
What exactly is/was/will be the situation there? It's a bit further east than I'm familiar with
 

Starmill

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What exactly is/was/will be the situation there? It's a bit further east than I'm familiar with
There are three services each way Saturdays only currently. These are abolished from the new timetable and replaced with one a day each way every weekday. The current timetable permits a day return journey from Brigg to Sheffield, or several hours in Grimsby or Cleethorpes. The new timetable permits no day return to Sheffield and cuts the maximum time possible in Cleethorpes or Grimsby to just 90 minutes.
 

Krokodil

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There are three services each way Saturdays only currently. These are abolished from the new timetable and replaced with one a day each way every weekday. The current timetable permits a day return journey from Brigg to Sheffield, or several hours in Grimsby or Cleethorpes. The new timetable permits no day return to Sheffield and cuts the maximum time possible in Cleethorpes or Grimsby to just 90 minutes.
I see. Run down the service so that it's unusable and claim that no one wants to use it. Things haven't changed since the S&D and the GC closed.
 

snowball

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I've just read this book review by Kathryn Hughes of How Westminster works ... and why it doesn't by Ian Dunt. Highly relevant to this thread.


Ian Dunt starts his lacerating analysis of Westminster with an extended case history. It concerns Chris Grayling at the time he became secretary of state for justice in 2012. Having inherited a probation service that was creaking at the seams, he decided to privatise the whole thing, turning over the delicate business of managing ex-offenders to a selection of security firms that had no experience of that kind of work. The big idea was that they would be incentivised with a “payment by results” system, calculated according to how many people fell back into crime.

What followed can best be described as a fiasco. The firms had no insight into the many causes of recidivism. Some clients simply got lost in the system because payment by results was not conducive to careful record-keeping across different agencies. It is perhaps consoling to know that several of the private companies that signed up for the promised unlimited profits ended up bankrupt. And Grayling? He went on to transport, where he acquired the moniker “Failing Grayling”. Ian Dunt, though, thinks this is unfair, since Grayling is actually “a completely standard example of the quality of the ministerial class in Britain”.

It is easy to stir up righteous anger, but Dunt does something far more useful in performing a detailed analysis of why none of this nonsense was stopped before it got started. The civil service, he shows, is staffed by clever generalists who lack the granular knowledge that would allow them to predict how things might go wrong, or give them the confidence to insist that a Tiggerish minister first establishes an evidence base for any proposed change, including taking data from pilot schemes into account. As for the Treasury, it seems to have stopped reading at the bit about payment by results and simply waved the whole thing through. And the press? In general, it wasn’t interested, says Dunt, because probation is dull and complicated to write about, with stories about the NHS and education grabbing the headlines instead.

In a series of deeply informed and carefully worked out examples, Ian Dunt takes us through the Westminster labyrinth to reveal an omnishambles. It is not – and he is clear here – because the people involved are corrupt or lazy. It is because the system is not fit for purpose. MPs are impossibly burdened by having to do two jobs simultaneously, first as local representatives and then as national politicians. Most of their constituency work is stuff that should be done by councils, were these not also failing. Cabinet ministers often appear poorly briefed, but they may have up to 20 meetings a day and can’t always start on their red boxes until the rest of us have already gone to bed.

Here and there Dunt finds reason to be cautiously cheerful. The House of Lords has shown remarkable independence, a real ability to affect the outcome of legislation by managing its own timetable and contributing much-needed expertise (the cross-bench system, he argues, works particularly well). And select committees turn out to offer a model of how things should be done – listening to the evidence and privileging cooperation and compromise over crude partisanship.

Dunt is a political journalist with a reputation for independent thinking, and he conducted more than 100 interviews for his book. Some, with figures such as Andy Burnham and Margaret Beckett, are on the record – but many are not. This is presumably because those interviewees are still at work in a system about which it is too risky to speak thoughtfully and honestly. And that, really, tells you everything you need to know.
 

Carlisle

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Run down the service so that it's unusable and claim that no one wants to use it. Things haven't changed since the S&D and the GC closed.
Not comparable really as S&D and GC were intentionally run down & closed relatively soon afterwards by BR whereas the Brigg line is in a tiny niche of routes that haven’t had a usable service for decades
 

Carlisle

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Could that have been the intention when the service was originally run down?
I think BR proposed Barnetby -Gainsborough for closure. I can’t remember if it was turned down or they simply later withdrew it .
 
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The Ian Dunt article and review is quite amusing. Chris Grayling comes in, decides, as a matter of Government policy, to privatise. Are the civil servants supposed to refuse to do his bidding or do what he asks. At least one commenter above criticised civil servants suggesting that they just do what they want. Yet here, the Guardian seems to be suggesting that civil servants should ignore their minister. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
 

Wolfie

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The Ian Dunt article and review is quite amusing. Chris Grayling comes in, decides, as a matter of Government policy, to privatise. Are the civil servants supposed to refuse to do his bidding or do what he asks. At least one commenter above criticised civil servants suggesting that they just do what they want. Yet here, the Guardian seems to be suggesting that civil servants should ignore their minister. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
Civil Servants have to speak truth to power. If what Ministers ask looks dubious we have to set out the facts in submissions. Ministers can choose to ignore those submissions but they go into the record.
 
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Absolutely. Which is why FOI requests seeking advice to ministers can quite interesting, if the information is released that is.
 

Wolfie

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Absolutely. Which is why FOI requests seeking advice to ministers can quite interesting, if the information is released that is.
It rarely is. There is an FOI exemption relating to the generation of Government policy (s.35 l think). I have drafted the response to more than a few such requests....

Judicial disclosure though is a whole different game....
 

tomuk

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It rarely is. There is an FOI exemption relating to the generation of Government policy (s.35 l think). I have drafted the response to more than a few such requests....

Judicial disclosure though is a whole different game....
I suppose we can all traipse down to Kew in 30 years and discover that Grayling was an idiot and the Perm Sec told him so on numerous occasions. Not necessarily an aid to a well functioning and accountable government.
 

Wolfie

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I suppose we can all traipse down to Kew in 30 years and discover that Grayling was an idiot and the Perm Sec told him so on numerous occasions. Not necessarily an aid to a well functioning and accountable government.
I don't disagree. Not that l write the rules....
 

Dr Hoo

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Could that have been the intention when the service was originally run down?
Looking at old timetables (back to before Beeching) the Brigg line seems to have long had a very strange service, the commercial purpose of which is unfathomable. Even back in 1961, when there were seven trains each way per day it seems that it would have been impossible to have commuted to either Gainsborough or Grimsby for an eight-hour working day, for example. As for further afield, such as Sheffield; forget it!

With the introduction of DMUs several through services Cleethorpes-Sheffield were already being routed via Doncaster rather than Brigg.

Connections to the ECML at Retford seem to have been quite important. These days railheading to Doncaster or Lincoln is much easier.

The final nail in the coffin came after the 1991 financial crash and the need to reduce Regional Railways DMU diagrams to free up Class 158s to go to Network SouthEast for Waterloo-Exeter. Reducing to a Saturday Only service meant that the route needed zero additional diagrams. Various other cuts around the same time, such as Dundee-Arbroath locals, Sheffield-York locals via Pontefract, Whitby branch down to a single diagram and Knottingley-Goole locals down to 'shoulder' peak extensions only, were all for the same reason.
 

yorksrob

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Looking at old timetables (back to before Beeching) the Brigg line seems to have long had a very strange service, the commercial purpose of which is unfathomable. Even back in 1961, when there were seven trains each way per day it seems that it would have been impossible to have commuted to either Gainsborough or Grimsby for an eight-hour working day, for example. As for further afield, such as Sheffield; forget it!

With the introduction of DMUs several through services Cleethorpes-Sheffield were already being routed via Doncaster rather than Brigg.

Connections to the ECML at Retford seem to have been quite important. These days railheading to Doncaster or Lincoln is much easier.

The final nail in the coffin came after the 1991 financial crash and the need to reduce Regional Railways DMU diagrams to free up Class 158s to go to Network SouthEast for Waterloo-Exeter. Reducing to a Saturday Only service meant that the route needed zero additional diagrams. Various other cuts around the same time, such as Dundee-Arbroath locals, Sheffield-York locals via Pontefract, Whitby branch down to a single diagram and Knottingley-Goole locals down to 'shoulder' peak extensions only, were all for the same reason.

Indeed. These are all abominations that should have been reversed over the years, but have been hard-baked into timetables since privatisation.
 
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