Solar railway - bad idea or bad idea?

[najaB]

Yesterday, Thursday 24th April, the world’s first solar power plant to be installed on an operational railway line was officially switched on in the Neuchâtel mountains in Switzerland.

Sun-Ways inaugurated the switch-on in the presence of representatives from the Swiss Federal Railways, the Federal Office of Transport, the Neuchâtel State Ministry, and Laurent Favre, the Head of the Department of Territorial Development and the Environment.

Switch on for world's first on-track solar power

The world's first solar power plant installed on an operational railway line has been officially switched on in the Neuchâtel mountains in Switzerland.

www.railadvent.co.uk

I must be missing something here, surely the panels will get covered in dirt and muck within weeks? And maintenance access is going to be a nightmare.

Does anyone think this is really a viable thing?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I must be missing something here, surely the panels will get covered in dirt and muck within weeks? And maintenance access is going to be a nightmare.

Does anyone think this is really a viable thing?

I think when it was first proposed 2 or 3 years ago, we concluded it wasn't... for exactly the points you mention.

The key test will be if it reduces costs more than it adds to them.

Think of that row a couple of weeks ago when something like £3 million was invested in fitting panels to something to save £15,000 a year... this could end up in the same boat.

 

[takno]

Switch on for world's first on-track solar power

The world's first solar power plant installed on an operational railway line has been officially switched on in the Neuchâtel mountains in Switzerland.

www.railadvent.co.uk

I must be missing something here, surely the panels will get covered in dirt and muck within weeks? And maintenance access is going to be a nightmare.

Does anyone think this is really a viable thing?

Reading down the article, it's an extremely test installation, designed to assess whether the panels will get too dirty, broken or in-the-way. I suspect the people commissioning the test fully expect it to fail, but want some evidence to point to whenever some bright spark re-invents the idea every three weeks.

Basically the underlying idea is much like that utterly stupid "data-based" "analysis" of how Edinburgh's bus stops are too close together which is doing the rounds at the minute. Anybody with a degree and a quarter of a brain can misuse sciency-sounding tools and arguments to make any of their half-baked whims into a "sensible plan" these days, and apparently it's then down actual experts to waste money doing proper science like this to refute their stupidity.

 

[MarkyT]

Probably more practical than solar roadways. That's not saying a lot! The panels and their mounting systems will need to be strong and resilient enough to be walked on by maintenance workers, wandering cows etc. Modern stock on the line probably doesn't flush toilets directly onto the ballast, but some heritage stock run occasionally might do that. What are their thoughts on snow. There's probably quite a lot of good refected light to collect when snow covers the surrounding landscape on a bright winter day, but only if the panels aren't also covered. They could build special cleaning vehicles with a rotating car wash brush underneath between the wheels to clear fine snow and debris, hopefully not damaging track-mounted transponders and cable connections in the process. Power cables should probably avoid close parallel running next to signalling cables to avoid any interference.

 

[andyjhatton]

I can't help but think in the UK they'd all be nicked anyway, certainly anywhere rural/ out of the way.

 

[Class 170101]

To be frank we need to be putting solar panels in easier places to maintain as needed, so how about starting with existing roof structures as per what GTR and SWR have done (as article says). But why not extend station canopies whilst we are at it before starting on the more difficult parts of the railway?

 

[MarkyT]

To be frank we need to be putting solar panels in easier places to maintain as needed, so how about starting with existing roof structures as per what GTR and SWR have done (as article says). But why not extend station canopies whilst we are at it before starting on the more difficult parts of the railway?

That could encourage provision of more shelter on platforms with an additional income stream to help pay for it.

 

[brad465]

I'd start with putting panels as roofs over motorway carriageways: larger surface area and easier to maintain (just close a lane in the area of work) compared to the above idea.

 

[HSTEd]

Well there is that high speed line segment in Belgium that has an avalanche gallery style hood over the top, with the panels on the roof.

That at least keeps the panels away from the operational railway.

 

[rmHawk765]

Switch on for world's first on-track solar power

The world's first solar power plant installed on an operational railway line has been officially switched on in the Neuchâtel mountains in Switzerland.

www.railadvent.co.uk

I must be missing something here, surely the panels will get covered in dirt and muck within weeks? And maintenance access is going to be a nightmare.

Does anyone think this is really a viable thing?

Well if I'm going to be honest, solar is rarely viable at the minute at all...

There are very few recycling chains set up to actually deal with the fact that the panels essentially become toxic waste at the end of their lifetimes if not dealt with properly. This is a serious issue and I don't think it's too long before suddenly everyone realises that now there are massive piles of toxic e-waste only creating more pollution when it is too late.

Anyway back on topic with this: I really don't know who genuinely thought of spending money on something so obviously flawed like this. The amount of cleaning you would have to do to actually keep the panels in operation... just look how dirty AWS magnets get, and now combine that with the fact that there are so many panels and that you actually have to clean them! Suddenly this already flawed idea makes absolutely zero sense. It ultimately will not do anything to costs with ever looming regular cleaning, maintenance and as I already mentioned, replacement and recycling, which is honestly true for many of the 'mainstream' green energy options.

If you're going to be putting panels on or near the railway the last place you would want to put them is on the track for god's sake.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Reading down the article, it's an extremely test installation, designed to assess whether the panels will get too dirty, broken or in-the-way. I suspect the people commissioning the test fully expect it to fail, but want some evidence to point to whenever some bright spark re-invents the idea every three weeks.

Basically the underlying idea is much like that utterly stupid "data-based" "analysis" of how Edinburgh's bus stops are too close together which is doing the rounds at the minute. Anybody with a degree and a quarter of a brain can misuse sciency-sounding tools and arguments to make any of their half-baked whims into a "sensible plan" these days, and apparently it's then down actual experts to waste money doing proper science like this to refute their stupidity.

Far better to have them elevated above the tracks. Should probably have done that on East-West as a linear solar farm.

Bus stops are often way too close together.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Up to 95% of a solar panel can be recycled

 

[tumbledown]

Up to 95% of a solar panel can be recycled

So between 0% and 90%...
Some people here seem to be forgetting that the area under the solar panels will be dark. And so need lighting all day if vehicles or people are going to be there.

 

[rmHawk765]

Up to 95% of a solar panel can be recycled

I never said you can't recycle them. I said no-one is currently putting the time, effort and of course money into recycling them.

 

[najaB]

There are very few recycling chains set up to actually deal with the fact that the panels essentially become toxic waste at the end of their lifetimes if not dealt with properly. This is a serious issue and I don't think it's too long before suddenly everyone realises that now there are massive piles of toxic e-waste only creating more pollution when it is too late.

Waste, yes. Toxic? Not really. They're 90 something percent glass, aluminium and copper.

 

[jthjth]

I never said you can't recycle them. I said no-one is currently putting the time, effort and of course money into recycling them.

This lot are https://www.recyclesolar.co.uk/

 

[HSTEd]

Solar panels don't all instantly fail at the end of their notional operational life.
For the most part operational life is set based on an arbitrary performance standard, for example 80% of original notional output.

If the panels are left in place they will continue to generate, at a slowly reducing rate, for decades beyond that time.

You will occasionally have to replaced failed panels and/or failed inverters, but the bulk of the installation can endure for a very long time. At which point the price of the electricity generated collapses pretty much to nothing.

Assuming you don't run out of mounting locations, there is little driver to replace them in the short/medium term.

In the context of this thread, the railway estate is enormous, so we would expect panels to be more or less a "one and done" affair. Install new somewhere else rather than replace older panels with lower outputs.

It's also not surprising that panel recycling is not common, as there is no shortage of installation options there is little driver to send working panels for scrap.

Therefore the volumes are far too small to justify development of specialised recycling capabilities.

 

[jon0844]

There are quite a few people I've seen online who buy old solar panels and recommission them in gardens, on fences (vertically) and similar - on the basis that any extra generation is worthwhile.

 

[Class 170101]

So between 0% and 90%...
Some people here seem to be forgetting that the area under the solar panels will be dark. And so need lighting all day if vehicles or people are going to be there.

Depends how bright it is and how much is covered. A strip like a station canopy I would expect not to be a problem compared to the roof of them covering a car park.

 

[najaB]

There are quite a few people I've seen online who buy old solar panels and recommission them in gardens, on fences (vertically) and similar - on the basis that any extra generation is worthwhile.

Not just for that kind of purpose. A lot of companies sell end-of-life panels from solar farms to be used for residential use. The panels are often close to if not at their rated power, the farms often just upgrade to install higher capacity panels.

Used panels are often half the price of new, so if you're not space-limited you can get more installed capacity at a significant saving.

 

[jon0844]

Not just for that kind of purpose. A lot of companies sell end-of-life panels from solar farms to be used for residential use. The panels are often close to if not at their rated power, the farms often just upgrade to install higher capacity panels.

Used panels are often half the price of new, so if you're not space-limited you can get more installed capacity at a significant saving.

I can believe that although a new panel is around £60-70 these days so I'd likely go new given the big cost is labour, scaffolding etc.

But for chucking on a fence or on top of a shed etc, they're ideal if they cost only £20-30.

 

[DelW]

I'd start with putting panels as roofs over motorway carriageways: larger surface area and easier to maintain (just close a lane in the area of work) compared to the above idea.

The logistics of installing them would be a difficulty, and steelwork spanning across the carriageway wouldn't be cheap.

Unless you put supports in the centre reserve (adding to installation difficulty), you'd need to span 30m plus. And even if the panels themselves are lightweight, you'll have to allow for wind and snow loadings.

As for the idea of working over a live motorway with just one lane closed, good luck with the risk assessment for that.

 

[AndrewE]

Given that (if my quick search is right) we might see 500 or 600 W/m squared in Switzerland, and trains generally take megaWatts, you will need thousands of metres squared to power a passing train...
it obviously falls at the first crude numerical assessment, and isn't worth wasting any further time on - even without the practicalities of cleaning off wheel and rail wear or access to running lines...

 

[najaB]

I can believe that although a new panel is around £60-70 these days so I'd likely go new given the big cost is labour, scaffolding etc.

That's kind of the point - if you're going to have to get scaffolding, labour, etc. to install say 5kW of panels, why not install 9.6kW for basically the same price?

 

[takno]

I can believe that although a new panel is around £60-70 these days so I'd likely go new given the big cost is labour, scaffolding etc.

But for chucking on a fence or on top of a shed etc, they're ideal if they cost only £20-30.

If they get down to 20-30 quid then there's an argument for slinging them on vertical walls, where they can be put up by an enthusiastic amateur with a stepladder

 

[themiller]

I visited Liverpool South Parkway station some years ago to inspect their eco measures which included ground source heat pumps to heat the station building, rainwater harvesting for toilet flushing etc., and solar generation which didn’t consist of the panels which are normally seen but patches of material on the windows which cut down on the glare from full sun. This was a pioneering project but I don’t know the current status of these energy saving measures.

https://www.polysolar.co.uk/projects-technology/liverpool-south-parkway-building-integrated-solar-facade

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

There's a lot of cynicism on here but what the heck is wrong with trial and error?

If our ancestors had adopted the attitudes of some of the posters here we'd still be using ponies and traps!

Railways? Hurumph! Those will never work. What about t'smoke, t'fire hazzard, how'd get t'water from t'well?

Steam engines? Bad idea or bad idea? The question allows no other opinion - so dismiss them.

 

[DarloRich]

I must be missing something here, surely the panels will get covered in dirt and muck within weeks? And maintenance access is going to be a nightmare.

Does anyone think this is really a viable thing?

it is a trial so we will find out. In the UK with many more diesel trains I don't think it would be practical. Along the line side might be a different matter.

I'd start with putting panels as roofs over motorway carriageways: larger surface area and easier to maintain (just close a lane in the area of work) compared to the above idea.

I don't really want to drive along a 300 mile tunnel......................

There are very few recycling chains set up to actually deal with the fact that the panels essentially become toxic waste at the end of their lifetimes if not dealt with properly. This is a serious issue and I don't think it's too long before suddenly everyone realises that now there are massive piles of toxic e-waste only creating more pollution when it is too late.

Perhaps step away from the Tufton Street talking points! There is a point to be made about meeting the The Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Regulations 2013 (WEEE Regs) but solar panels are no worse or better than many electrical items.

I am also not sure solar panel waste is "toxic" - it is mainly copper, aluminium, glass, plastic and silicon. Now, as for making pure enough silicon, now that is FAR from green!

( I would recommend the Material World by Ed Conway - very enlightening)

There's a lot of cynicism on here but what the heck is wrong with trial and error?

quite! it is a trial. If it works great, if it doesn't: back to the drawing board!

 

[tumbledown]

If it works great, if it doesn't: back to the drawing board!

Yes, but as Ian Walmsley is fond of pointing out, there is a perverse incentive to spend public money on "innovation" which ten minutes with a calculator and a Physics textbook will debunk. And then next year do it again.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, but as Ian Walmsley is fond of pointing out, there is a perverse incentive to spend public money on "innovation" which ten minutes with a calculator and a Physics textbook will debunk. And then next year do it again.

I am sure Ian Walmsley (?) is right - we best not try anything ever in that case!