South Coast 3rd Rail Issues - 24th February 2024

[Bikeman78]

I remember back in the 1980s when I lived near the coastway route going out one evening when there was heavy snowfall and seeing the night sky lit up by a passing EMU due to arching from the 3rd rail. One time I was on a train travelling from Portsmouth & Southsea in a heavy snowstorm and they added a 4EBP to the usual 4VEP as apparently 4EPBs performed better in snowy / icy conditions.

It was often said at the time that the EPBs were better. Technically they were very similar to the CIGs and VEPs. However, the shoe beams looked a lot more sturdy so that probably helped.

Regarding lighting up the sky; one morning I could see, from several miles away, the first up train departing from Billinghurst on a snowy morning. It looked like lightning. It's quite a climb up towards Christ's Hospital.

Another time I did a pair of VEPs on the first up to Dorking. It was a non stop run, the shoes were arcing the entire journey and the lights kept going out but it got there no problem. Nice and cosy in the first class too. The heaters must have been simmering away all night.

 

[Bald Rick]

It was often said at the time that the EPBs were better. Technically they were very similar to the CIGs and VEPs. However, the shoe beams looked a lot more sturdy so that probably helped.

Regarding lighting up the sky; one morning I could see, from several miles away, the first up train departing from Billinghurst on a snowy morning. It looked like lightning. It's quite a climb up towards Christ's Hospital.

Another time I did a pair of VEPs on the first up to Dorking. It was a non stop run, the shoes were arcing the entire journey and the lights kept going out but it got there no problem. Nice and cosy in the first class too. The heaters must have been simmering away all night.

Various tales of guards holding the breakers / fuses in in such conditions.…

 

[Taunton]

I remember back in the 1980s when I lived near the coastway route going out one evening when there was heavy snowfall and seeing the night sky lit up by a passing EMU due to arcing from the 3rd rail.

We moved in my youth from Somerset to the north Wirral, very seriously regarded as "in the North". It didn't help that this was just as winter came on, which in those times was colder and icy-er.

However, a novelty was of course being able to see the Northern Lights, which we had read flickered in the sky. And there they were. It didn't occur that we were actually looking south from the house. Intermittent, but flashes lighting up around. Would disappear for a while, then come back.

And it also didn't quite strike anyone that they came about once every 20 minutes, and every 10 minutes in the evening peak ...

 

[Bikeman78]

Various tales of guards holding the breakers / fuses in in such conditions.…

Quite possibly. I was surprised how easily it got up the gradient from Warnham to Ockley. The only time I got stuck was Bearsted Bank. Sat there for three hours awaiting rescue by a class 73. By which time the ice had long since thawed! I was surprised that we weren't allowed to run back to Maidstone East.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Quite possibly. I was surprised how easily it got up the gradient from Warnham to Ockley. The only time I got stuck was Bearsted Bank. Sat there for three hours awaiting rescue by a class 73. By which time the ice had long since thawed! I was surprised that we weren't allowed to run back to Maidstone East.

Depends how long ago it was - but there might have been catch points for wrong direction running (which would have been needed to be clipped , scotched and handsignalled)

 

[Colin1501]

Of course this is NOT extreme weather, but it demonstrates my belief that todasy's trains are getting more and more delicate and less able to deal with various normal seasonal weather types. It's worth noting, BTW, that the sandy soil of the New Forest/Bournemouth area does lead to faster radiative cooling under clear skies than other soil types.


Indeed, but it was to allow the TCs to clear the rails for the REP rather than better adhesion.

I believe the reason for marshalling the REPs between the TCs in these conditions was to reduce snow ingress to the traction motors. The TCs would not have helped clear snow off the live rails as they didn't have pickup shoes.

"Fast" Bournemouth trains had the 4-REP power cars marshalled "inside" in snowy and icy weather to give better traction - and I recall putting 4-VEP's on the Waterloo - Hampton Court service as they manager a lot better than the single powered car 455's which really struggled .....

Not sure I understand the point about VEPs vs 455s. Both units only had a single powered coach. The EPBs mentioned earlier had a motor bogie at each end, so may have managed better in snowy conditions.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I believe the reason for marshalling the REPs between the TCs in these conditions was to reduce snow ingress to the traction motors. The TCs would not have helped clear snow off the live rails as they didn't have pickup shoes.


Not sure I understand the point about VEPs vs 455s. Both units only had a single powered coach. The EPBs mentioned earlier had a motor bogie at each end, so may have managed better in snowy conditions.

I can only refer to a young and keen driver who had great difficulty in getting back from Hampton Court (there was not much moving down there that day) - so he said he was not going down again - so words were had on the phone and his next trip was with an 8-VEP and he was back in "normal" time and he was a happy driver.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the reason for marshalling the REPs between the TCs in these conditions was to reduce snow ingress to the traction motors. The TCs would not have helped clear snow off the live rails as they didn't have pickup shoes.


Not sure I understand the point about VEPs vs 455s. Both units only had a single powered coach. The EPBs mentioned earlier had a motor bogie at each end, so may have managed better in snowy conditions.

I recall news footage in the major snowfall in Kent in 1979. Trains on the North Kent line were shown as Class 56 leading, withdrawn 4-EPB locked up, and 4-VEP at the back. The EPB gave additional electric power and conductor rail scraping, but was not in passenger service because of the hazard of broken windows from icicles. The Class 56 (which used to take coal trains down to Kent industries) was in case none of this was effective.

 

[Bikeman78]

I can only refer to a young and keen driver who had great difficulty in getting back from Hampton Court (there was not much moving down there that day) - so he said he was not going down again - so words were had on the phone and his next trip was with an 8-VEP and he was back in "normal" time and he was a happy driver.

The 455s were always notorious for slipping. I don't really understand why. Fundamentally, the control gear and the motors were not much different to CEPs, CIGs, VEP and EPBs.

 

[Recessio]

The 455s were always notorious for slipping. I don't really understand why. Fundamentally, the control gear and the motors were not much different to CEPs, CIGs, VEP and EPBs.

Were the 455s any lighter?

 

[zuriblue]

The 455s were always notorious for slipping. I don't really understand why. Fundamentally, the control gear and the motors were not much different to CEPs, CIGs, VEP and EPBs.

Don’t they have disc brakes rather than clasp brakes so you don’t get the brake blocks cleaning all the cruft off the wheel?

 

[AM9]

Don’t they have disc brakes rather than clasp brakes so you don’t get the brake blocks cleaning all the cruft off the wheel?

Would there be a difference in the unsprung weight of the bogies e.g. the basic Mk1 had leaf springs in the primary suspension, whereas the more recent designs had coil springs.

 

[Dinsdale]

All trains between Lewes and Seaford are cancelled this morning. Southern advising to use local buses:

"There is a build-up of ice on the electric third rail to the east of Lewes. This is causing disruption to Southern services via this station.
The Seaford Line is currently suspended, and trains on other routes may be delayed by up to 15 minutes.
Rail replacement buses are not available from our suppliers at present".

It looks as if all Brighton to Seaford services cancelled so less trains between Lewes and Brighton this morning.

 

[contrex]

It was often said at the time that the EPBs were better. Technically they were very similar to the CIGs and VEPs. However, the shoe beams looked a lot more sturdy so that probably helped.

Back in the Middle Ages (pre-1983!) you would hear of 8-SUB formations doing e.g. London-Brighton runs in very icy weather, apparently (1) the shoe gear (like EPBs) was heavy (2) there was a power jumper between the units, so a continuous power bus along all 8 cars, with 8 shoes connected.

 

[AM9]

Back in the Middle Ages (pre-1983!) you would hear of 8-SUB formations doing e.g. London-Brighton runs in very icy weather, apparently (1) the shoe gear (like EPBs) was heavy (2) there was a power jumper between the units, so a continuous power bus along all 8 cars, with 8 shoes connected.

Don't all National Rail 3rd rail EMUs* have an end to end DC bus to avoid/minimise the opportunity of being gapped?
*even if all the motors are concentrated in a single motor car.

 

[contrex]

Don't all National Rail 3rd rail EMUs* have an end to end DC bus to avoid/minimise the opportunity of being gapped?
*even if all the motors are concentrated in a single motor car.

Yes, that is pretty common, although I think the 313s were a bit different due to working in the GN & C tunnels (a motor car at each end, each having shoes on both bogies, and no DC bus between cars). I don't know what they did with the 717s.

What I was on about was a power jumper linking separate units which have been coupled together, so that for example if two 4-SUBs were coupled together to run as an 8-car formation, there were three things to connect between the units - air, MU cable, and 660v power jumper. For safety reasons only depot staff could connect/disconnect power jumpers, so 8-SUB formations tended to stay coupled all day, not just for the peaks. Very early EPBs had a power jumper but they were abandoned before many were built, and later ones didn't have them. After that new units didn't have them, although it was fairly common on SR electric stock. The advantage was that all the shoes of the coupled units were joined electrically.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes, that is pretty common, although I think the 313s were a bit different due to working in the GN & C tunnels (a motor car at each end, each having shoes on both bogies, and no DC bus between cars). I don't know what they did with the 717s.

What I was on about was a power jumper linking separate units which have been coupled together, so that for example if two 4-SUBs were coupled together to run as an 8-car formation, there were three things to connect between the units - air, MU cable, and 660v power jumper. For safety reasons only depot staff could connect/disconnect power jumpers, so 8-SUB formations tended to stay coupled all day, not just for the peaks. Very early EPBs had a power jumper but they were abandoned before many were built, and later ones didn't have them. After that new units didn't have them, although it was fairly common on SR electric stock. The advantage was that all the shoes of the coupled units were joined electrically.

In my day - the North London Line 313's (used on the DC and Richmond - North Woolwich) had one pick up shoe per motor car removed as the 3d rail was so out of gauge due to indifferent mtc by the then Railtrack and whilst losing a shoe was a nuisance - there was a real risk of it causing a broken shoe-beam and a chance of it pole vaulting - possibly causing a derailment. Better risk of minor pick up problems than that. We believed the rolling stock engineers so we served a notice on Railtrack and held them liable.

My colleugues - who we worked closely with on the Bakerloo** lost loads of shoes around the Stonebridge Park area on the down DC - I recall a cab ride following a 72TS which was completely stalled due to all shoes pulled off on both sides like peas being shelled. We had no desire to mess around with adapters , - so we beat a retreat ECS wrong road and got another 72 sent in to rescuse the dud. Damaged the peak - but at least something ran............


** the whole condition of the DC infrastructure was very poor - not just track quality , con rail and power supply. So we shopped them to the ORR and got some investment in the line.

 

[Bikeman78]

Don't all National Rail 3rd rail EMUs* have an end to end DC bus to avoid/minimise the opportunity of being gapped?
*even if all the motors are concentrated in a single motor car.

I think they do. There are still places where the gaps are just under 80m apart which results in some interesting fireworks. I recall stopping just south of Blackfriars at a red signal on a 319. The shoe must have been on the ramp because it was fizzing and crackling away for the duration of the stop. The other end shoe must have been in a gap or missing. Luckily it was an eight car, otherwise pulling away could have been challenging.