South Wales 'Metro' updates

[59CosG95]

Just to confuse us, Amey Keolis Infrastructure Ltd are (going to be) leasing the Core Valley Lines infrastructure and assets from Transport for Wales (not to be confused with Keolis/Amey Wales Cymru Ltd who run the TOC Transport for Wales Rail Services ( Gwasanaethau Rheilffyrdd Trafnidiaeth Cymru) .

We're through the looking glass here, people!

 

[Cardiff123]

Just to confuse us, Amey Keolis Infrastructure Ltd are (going to be) leasing the Core Valley Lines infrastructure and assets from Transport for Wales (not to be confused with Keolis/Amey Wales Cymru Ltd who run the TOC Transport for Wales Rail Services ( Gwasanaethau Rheilffyrdd Trafnidiaeth Cymru) .

You forgot to mention that Transport for Wales is owned by the Welsh Government, not to be confused with Transport for Wales Rail Services, which is run by Keolis Amey. But as Keolis Amey are not allowed to tell us that they are running the Wales and Borders rail franchise in any of their branding, many people in Wales think that the rail system in Wales is now nationalised through TfW, which it is not.
Wow, I've just confused myself

 

[S-Bahn]

Just like to add regarding Radyr car park that I do know some people who drive down the A470 every day from North of Abercynon, park at Radyr and then take the train into their offices near Queen St and Central.

Clearly more park and ride further up the valleys should take traffic off the A470. Having park and rides on the outskirts of Cardiff is more likely to cause people to drive down and clog up the A470, M4 etc.

 

[Tom Quinne]

It amazes me that the huge elephant in the room is being ignored, instead they fart around with a bargain basement “electrification” program which would make a 3rd world country laugh.

The elephant ? the double track span over Newport Road outside Queen Street.

You have as many trains as you like, but unless they can efficiently pass through QS then it’s all going to fall flat on its face.

The whole area from Ninian Park to Heath & Llandaff needs to re-Resignalling and track alterations made for a start, put a four track span over the main road combined with a new layout from central to QS and you might be in with a chance.

 

[Dai Corner]

It amazes me that the huge elephant in the room is being ignored, instead they fart around with a bargain basement “electrification” program which would make a 3rd world country laugh.

The elephant ? the double track span over Newport Road outside Queen Street.

You have as many trains as you like, but unless they can efficiently pass through QS then it’s all going to fall flat on its face.

The whole area from Ninian Park to Heath & Llandaff needs to re-Resignalling and track alterations made for a start, put a four track span over the main road combined with a new layout from central to QS and you might be in with a chance.

The Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal project finished only a couple of years ago. Whether it took into account the service patterns now proposed/specified I wouldn't like to say.

There are buildings very close to the railway near the Newport Road bridge. We've discussed adding tracks before on this or another thread and I think it was decided demolition would be necessary.

 

[Dr Day]

A further complication is the specification of through running from every Valley to Cardiff Bay, rather than the current shuttle. The 4 tph won’t all be going to Central, so folk heading there may have to change creating passenger flow issues within Queen Street station itself as well as track and signalling issues for the trains south and north of the station.

 

[Envoy]

A further complication is the specification of through running from every Valley to Cardiff Bay, rather than the current shuttle. The 4 tph won’t all be going to Central, so folk heading there may have to change creating passenger flow issues within Queen Street station itself as well as track and signalling issues for the trains south and north of the station.

I agree and can’t understand this obsession with having so many services going down to Cardiff Bay with the loss of services through to Central - where we now have so many office blocks plus the Brewery site now being developed south of the station and of course the interchange with the mainline. We are also going to see the loss of through services from the central valleys down to the coast at Penarth, Barry and of course Cardiff Airport & Llantwit Major. (It is only services using Stadler Flirts from the Rhymnney Valley that will go down to the coast). Goodness knows how many people will be changing trains in Cardiff on fine days in summer in order to get from the central valleys down to Barry Island & back?

 

[John R]

The current proposal is for 20 southbound peak services into QS. Given there is no need for anywhere near 20 services to head south out of Central towards the Vale (or back up to Radyr) if services don’t run to the Bay a lot more have to terminate at Central, which I suspect is something that would itself cause capacity and reliability concerns. And given there wasn’t the money to electrify south of Cardiff anyway, the trams can’t carry on anyway.

 

[Dr Day]

Was the CASR re-signalling and new platform at Queen St etc specified for 20 tph and through Bay services?

Will be interesting when the reality of the 4 tph only going as far as Queen Street starts to dawn on people - just hope the customer information systems are reliable as can see a lot of folk just hopping on trains expecting everything to run through to Central as it does now and ending up at Cardiff Bay (where of course they will have an on-street tram to take them back to Central, so it won't be that bad...). For many folk wanting a direct service to Central there is actually no increase on the 2 tph direct service today, just new vehicles. I still expect people will look up timetables to get a direct service, rather than 'turn up and go' and faff around changing.

 

[Cardiff123]

Was the CASR re-signalling and new platform at Queen St etc specified for 20 tph and through Bay services?

No, it was specified for 16tph + 1 freight path per hour. 18tph is actually what will be passing through Queen St.
4tph from Treherbert
4tph from Merthyr
2tph from Aberdare
2tph from Coryton
6tph from Caerphilly
With the extra 2tph from Aberdare going via the City Line at Radyr into Central.

 

[Dai Corner]

Will be interesting when the reality of the 4 tph only going as far as Queen Street starts to dawn on people - just hope the customer information systems are reliable as can see a lot of folk just hopping on trains expecting everything to run through to Central as it does now and ending up at Cardiff Bay (where of course they will have an on-street tram to take them back to Central, so it won't be that bad...). For many folk wanting a direct service to Central there is actually no increase on the 2 tph direct service today, just new vehicles. I still expect people will look up timetables to get a direct service, rather than 'turn up and go' and faff around changing.

No, the tramway is just an extension of the Cardiff Bay branch. If they stay on their train-tram they'll find themselves back at Queen Street.

 

[krus_aragon]

No, the tramway is just an extension of the Cardiff Bay branch. If they stay on their train-tram they'll find themselves back at Queen Street.

Though there are longer-term plans to continue the tram line back towards Central. Still a way off, though.

 

[VT 390]

No, it was specified for 16tph + 1 freight path per hour. 18tph is actually what will be passing through Queen St.
4tph from Treherbert
4tph from Merthyr
2tph from Aberdare
2tph from Coryton
6tph from Caerphilly
With the extra 2tph from Aberdare going via the City Line at Radyr into Central.

Will the 2 Aberdare services via the City Line be non stop to Central from Radyr or call at all the stations along the way?

 

[John R]

According to a plan presented to the FOSBR AGM last week, they will have to be the stoppers.

https://fosbr.org.uk/cardiff-metro/

 

[edwin_m]

A further complication is the specification of through running from every Valley to Cardiff Bay, rather than the current shuttle. The 4 tph won’t all be going to Central, so folk heading there may have to change creating passenger flow issues within Queen Street station itself as well as track and signalling issues for the trains south and north of the station.

Unless it's changed since I last looked, the 4TPH on each of the tram-train routes alternate for Central and the Bay, so people for those destinations will board the appropriate train at their origin station and people for Queen Street will go for whichever train has more space (probably the Bay ones) unless they have to be there at a specific time. This service pattern should result in fewer passengers from the routes concerned changing trains at Queen Street.

 

[Dr Day]

True, but part of the original philosophy was to be ‘you won’t need a timetable’ which won’t be the case if there are only 2tph and people are encouraged to wait at their origin rather than take the first one that shows up and change if necessary (which could be likely to get you more quickly to your desired destination than waiting).

Some of the original ‘everywhere has a through service to the Bay’ specification appears to have gone now, with nothing direct on the Rhymney valley side.

Only 2 tph on the Coryton and City line branches (no longer linked post 2023) seems a wasted opportunity too for inner locations which could be transformed with a ‘proper metro’ but maybe that is for a future phase of the on-street network being developed by the city council I believe. Even 18 tph appears to be likely to test Queen St north junction, so more Corytons would break the camel’s back. Either way the whole marketed message of the ‘metro’ has been diluted by the practical capacity of the network, at least for the foreseeable future.

 

[John R]

With trains down from Pontypridd every 5 mins, anyone on a Bay bound train from further north will probably just hop off there and wait 5 minutes. Or if they have a seat wait until they get to Cathays so as to ensure not having to change platform. I don’t see it being a big deal at all given the service frequency is being doubled.

 

[daodao]

Unless it's changed since I last looked, the 4TPH on each of the tram-train routes alternate for Central and the Bay, so people for those destinations will board the appropriate train at their origin station and people for Queen Street will go for whichever train has more space (probably the Bay ones) unless they have to be there at a specific time. This service pattern should result in fewer passengers from the routes concerned changing trains at Queen Street.

Would it not be simpler, and relieve pressure on Queen Street, for alternate tram-trains from Pontypridd to be routed from Radyr via the City Line into Central, and then eventually via a new street route to the Bay, leaving just 6 tram-trains per hour to run via Queen Street and the existing route to Cardiff Bay. The Queen Street-Central service would be 8 tph provided by the Barry/Penarth-Rhymney Valley/Coryton services.

 

[John R]

Given a lot of employment is centred close to Cathays and Queen St, that just moves any problem (if one exists) onto a different group of commuters. And I think then you would have a much bigger skew towards the 6 tph running down to QS.

 

[Class 170101]

Did I hear Taff Wells on the news recently connected with the flooding items?

If so does that bode well for the siting of the new depot which I seem to recall reading is in this area?

 

[Tom Quinne]

18tph of fresh air for most of the day, what’s the obsession with running dozens of short (2 or 3 car) trains?

Then we have issues with capacity or lack of, the valleys can take 6 cars in the main, inside the peak and on high days of course run a more frequent service but we have no four car trains with a handful of passengers on outside the short peaks.

We all know passengers will jump on end first train that says “Cardiff” on, whether its destination is QS, Bay or Central.

I’m sure the people who plan these ideas have never been out and about on the network, or spent any time with the great British traveling public.

 

[Cardiff123]

18tph of fresh air for most of the day, what’s the obsession with running dozens of short (2 or 3 car) trains?

Then we have issues with capacity or lack of, the valleys can take 6 cars in the main, inside the peak and on high days of course run a more frequent service but we have no four car trains with a handful of passengers on outside the short peaks.

We all know passengers will jump on end first train that says “Cardiff” on, whether its destination is QS, Bay or Central.

I’m sure the people who plan these ideas have never been out and about on the network, or spent any time with the great British traveling public.

The idea of the Metro is to induce demand. You cannot compare it to what we have now. That's why TfW are lowering fares, letting under 16s travel free off peak, half price travel for under 18s, etc. If the congestion charge for Cardiff happens, along with increased city centre parking charges, people will have to use public transport to get into Cardiff. That's also why there will be more frequent evening and Sunday services from 2024, with later finishes.

And i'd argue it's not "most of the day" that the Valley lines are quiet. 7 -10am and 3 - 8pm weekdays are busy along with all day Saturdays. And when the schools are off and in the run up to Christmas 10am - 3pm can be busy as well.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I see empty trains most of the day everyday in afraid, more stick and a very pointy one at that with congestion taxing to force people to use poor public transport.

No doubt those who have forced the tax through will be able to claim back their charges, or have drivers to ferry them about.

I’ll happily eat my hat if in 2025/26 we’ve a fantastic metro style turn up and go train service, with properly joined up public transport for all, at all times of the day and night - and weekends.

I really can’t see it though.

 

[Envoy]

The City Line seems to be the weakest with only 2 trains per hour = same as now. This is not good enough for an urban railway & means that many people will not use it. Priority should be given to building the 1 mile link between Coryton & Radyr and making it a City Circle line. (Yes, I know that the Taff would need to be bridged). A new station to serve the new Velindre Hospital should appear on this section and the link would mean that people fro the central valleys could reach it by changing at Radyr. In the meantime, more trains from/ to the Central valleys should use the City Line western section to at least make it a 15 minute service.

Many of the trains have low loadings in the middle part of the day because the over 60’s have bus passes - so they would rather use these slower bus services than the trains.

 

[Cambrian359]

I see empty trains most of the day everyday in afraid, more stick and a very pointy one at that with congestion taxing to force people to use poor public transport.

No doubt those who have forced the tax through will be able to claim back their charges, or have drivers to ferry them about.

I’ll happily eat my hat if in 2025/26 we’ve a fantastic metro style turn up and go train service, with properly joined up public transport for all, at all times of the day and night - and weekends.

I really can’t see it though.

This is is surely no different to London? I spent a week last September travelling from central London outwards each day visiting various places and most of the 10-12 car trains I used during off peak could have fit their passenger loading on to a 25 seater minibus...some an 8 seater would have been fine!
The point being it’s a problem for most city transports system carrying fresh air during weekday off peak!

 

[Dai Corner]

This is is surely no different to London? I spent a week last September travelling from central London outwards each day visiting various places and most of the 10-12 car trains I used during off peak could have fit their passenger loading on to a 25 seater minibus...some an 8 seater would have been fine!
The point being it’s a problem for most city transports system carrying fresh air during weekday off peak!

That's fine as long as somebody's prepared to pay for all the fresh air to be carried around. A problem N Ireland are having to face up to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51557506

A senior civil servant has issued a stark warning on the future of Northern Ireland's public transport network.

In 2015/16, funding provided to Translink by Stormont was cut and its budget has struggled to recover.

Department for Infrastructure official John McGrath told a Stormont committee Translink's viability is "in jeopardy".

Infrastructure Minister Nichola Mallon said her whole department was affected by budget pressures but she was working with other ministers to find solutions.

Her department is Translink's primary source of capital funding, and one of its main sources of revenue income.

'Running out of options'
In 2015/16, the annual subsidy provided to Translink for the public transport network was reduced by some £13m, in line with a series of wider savings that the then Department for Regional Development had to make.

Mr McGrath said while Translink had managed to maintain the rail and bus network by drawing on its reserves, it is now "running out of options".

 

[CardiffKid]

18tph of fresh air for most of the day, what’s the obsession with running dozens of short (2 or 3 car) trains?

Then we have issues with capacity or lack of, the valleys can take 6 cars in the main, inside the peak and on high days of course run a more frequent service but we have no four car trains with a handful of passengers on outside the short peaks.

ATW did a while back start reducing 4 car units to 2 car units once the morning peak was over and then strengthening them back to 4 car units in the evening, but it took a lot of time and effort and made minimul financial savings overall so they stopped.

We all know passengers will jump on end first train that says “Cardiff” on, whether its destination is QS, Bay or Central.

I’m sure the people who plan these ideas have never been out and about on the network, or spent any time with the great British traveling public.

I don't think it's such a problem with 50% of (core) valley trains serving CQS and the Bay rather than CQS and Central...

Though there are longer-term plans to continue the tram line back towards Central. Still a way off, though.

I think a long term aspiration is a better phrase.

Don't underestimate how popular Queen Street is for shoppers and workers. I used to commute from QS to Penarth and 50% plus of the passengers comming down from Bargoed/Caerphilly etc alighted in Queen Street rather than Central.

 

[edwin_m]

True, but part of the original philosophy was to be ‘you won’t need a timetable’ which won’t be the case if there are only 2tph and people are encouraged to wait at their origin rather than take the first one that shows up and change if necessary (which could be likely to get you more quickly to your desired destination than waiting).

Turn up and go service is important for attracting the off peak passengers who can be accommodated easily when the needs during commuter peaks dictate what resources are available (trains and infrastructure capacity). Many of those off-peak passengers will be heading for the shopping areas of Cardiff, and Queen Street is most convenient for most of these. Those who want Central or the Bay may find the first train isn't going there, but even if they choose to make a change en route the numbers doing so are manageable at off-peak times when the system is below capacity. Slightly less clear-cut for those whose route to Queen Street is via the City Line and Central.

It's a bit different for commuters. For the mornings they will decide on the optimum train and set their alarm so they ideally arrive on the platform just as that train pulls in. So frequency to a particular destination isn't so important to them as long as there is enough capacity. If heading for Central or the Bay they would naturally aim for a through train, as it is less hassle and one less thing to go wrong. Therefore half the service to each of those destinations is more attractive than having all trains serving only one.

In the evening some will follow the same principle. Those who finish at variable times may end up getting the first train and changing en route, or they may choose to hang around in the workplace a bit longer then leave at the right time for a through train.

 

[S-Bahn]

I'm assuming the plan is to run paired up tram trains on some of the peak time services? If not, then those services will be just as overcrowded as they are now.

 

[Cardiff123]

I see empty trains most of the day everyday in afraid, more stick and a very pointy one at that with congestion taxing to force people to use poor public transport.

No doubt those who have forced the tax through will be able to claim back their charges, or have drivers to ferry them about.

I’ll happily eat my hat if in 2025/26 we’ve a fantastic metro style turn up and go train service, with properly joined up public transport for all, at all times of the day and night - and weekends.

I really can’t see it though.

So you can think the final Metro plans for 2023/24 are poor? Why?

The air in inner city areas of Cardiff is toxic and congestion is at breaking point. A congestion charge is needed to force people out of cars, whether you call that a stick or not is up to you, but it's needed. It's now a public health risk - I know - I have to breathe in the pollution from people's cars in inner city Cardiff every day.