South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Tomos y Tanc]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/karl...valleylines-activity-6840575122642870272-6Cc3

The first masts have gone in (on the Aberdare Line)...

That's kind of exciting! It does seem to be coming together quite quickly now.

Does anyone know how they're doing time and cost-wise? I would be a heck of an achievement to bring the thing in on budget given the current inflation in the cost of construction materials.

 

[AlexNL]

What type of electrification system is being installed on the Valley Lines? Is this something already seen elsewhere in the UK, or is it new and bespoke to those lines, which will be used by tram-trains if I'm not mistaken? What voltage will go on the wires, 25 kV?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

What type of electrification system is being installed on the Valley Lines? Is this something already seen elsewhere in the UK, or is it new and bespoke to those lines, which will be used by tram-trains if I'm not mistaken? What voltage will go on the wires, 25 kV?

It's 25 kv but discontinuous with back up batteries used under some bridges and in tunnels where the train will remain connected to ole but where the wires will be permanently earthed.

 

[John R]

It's 25 kv but discontinuous with back up batteries used under some bridges and in tunnels where the train will remain connected to ole but where the wires will be permanently earthed.

Interesting. So Caerphilly Tunnel will be wired?

 

[krus_aragon]

Interesting. So Caerphilly Tunnel will be wired?

Wired with an earth wire, yes. This means the wire doesn't need the usual high-voltage clearances, and the train's pantograph can stay up until it reaches the live wires again.

 

[CardiffKid]

First photos of the first masts

https://twitter.com/transport_wales/status/1435173747560890368?s=21

 

[Envoy]

I see that Media Wales are covering the non toilet issue today:> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/south-wales-metro-trains-toilets-21578357

"The drivers and conductors are gobsmacked and dreading the day these trains are put into service," said one staff member, who did not wish to be named.

"The lack of toilets is something that's going to become an issue. If someone elderly needs to go, or there are families with small children onboard, are they really expected to get off with all their belongings and then catch the train behind?

Why don’t they get on and build the new toilets now in order to make sure that they can operate effectively and are not vandalised? Even Barry Island station does not have a toilet. Let us also hope that when the new toilets are built that they have beams that are activated on presentation of hands for soap, water and blowing. (At Cardiff Central, someone who has contaminated hands from toileting has to press a plunger tap to get soap/ water thus contaminating the plunger). The same 'beam system' should also be on new trains.

I wonder what the people of the Taff valley will make of it when they realise that the next valley east - Rhymney - has Flirt trains with toilets. Will some people drive over to the Rhymney line from the Taff Valley?

I understand that on match days in Cardiff, that trains are already fully loaded on leaving Merthyr with people unable to board further south. Will the new stock be able to cope with the surge in demand on event days? If someone needed the toilet in mid journey and decided to hop off, they might put themselves at risk of not being able to board a following service at busy times?
Perhaps they won’t take that risk - then what?

I also foresee that the platform toilets at Cardiff Central will be very busy as it is here that people from the central valleys will have to change for trains to the coast (Barry etc.). Is provision being made for this? You certainly need decent toilets at the start points on the coast such as Barry Island and Penarth.

 

[TravelDream]

I see that Media Wales are covering the non toilet issue today:> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/south-wales-metro-trains-toilets-21578357

The toilet issue was sorted a long time ago and it is now far too late to do anything about it onboard.
Here's an article from, oh, two years ago, saying exactly the same thing with he same quote from TFW - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49743976

I don't think it is *that* much of an issue though to be honest. The longest route will be under an hour end-to-end and trains and buses elsewhere travel further with fewer facilities. Trains will run 12 per hour from Pontypridd to Queen Street which is more than hop-on/off service. For most, the next train would be entering the station just as you returned from the bathroom.

Station facilities are a bit of a bigger issue. Queen Street is particularly poorly served with not particularly nice small toilets on platform 3/4 and a single disabled toilet downstairs on the concourse. What can be done there though? The platforms are already very narrow. There's also a big issue with Pontypridd as toilets are currently just on the southbound platform. The only way to use them if traveling north is to leave the gated area, walk a fair distance and re-enter the gated area on the other side. Central might also have issues too, you're right. Some stations are having those automatic toilets added.
The biggest issue, of course, is vandalism and shutting toilets which will inevitably happen.

I don't get this thing about motion-detector taps and soap dispensers. They are a relatively new invention and those 'contaminated' hands are going to be washed in soap and water.

 

[CardiffKid]

I stopped reading WalesOnline years ago.
Dare I ask is there any actual news in that article?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I stopped reading WalesOnline years ago.
Dare I ask is there any actual news in that article?

No, there isn't.

It's just old stuff reheated with a "quote" from an anonomous "TFW employee". Wales Online really is drivel these days. It's only a matter of time before The National, Nation.Cymru or both eclipse them.

 

[oglord]

No, there isn't.

It's just old stuff reheated with a "quote" from an anonomous "TFW employee". Wales Online really is drivel these days. It's only a matter of time before The National, Nation.Cymru or both eclipse them.

Even more drivel in those...

 

[Envoy]

The following link is a PDF of plans for the Atlantic Wharf area of Cardiff Bay. It is relevant to this thread because it shows a proposed Metro route at street level through the Bay area extending from what is now Cardiff Bay station. https://atlanticwharfcardiff.co.uk/...1/07/Atlantic-Wharf-Webinar-1-6-July-2021.pdf

Note that the tram looks nothing like the Stadler units on order.

"Where we need new infrastructure, we will use the Sustainable Transport Hierarchy”.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The following link is a PDF of plans for the Atlantic Wharf area of Cardiff Bay. It is relevant to this thread because it shows a proposed Metro route at street level through the Bay area extending from what is now Cardiff Bay station. https://atlanticwharfcardiff.co.uk/...1/07/Atlantic-Wharf-Webinar-1-6-July-2021.pdf

Note that the tram looks nothing like the Stadler units on order.

That's the suggested 'Cardiff Crossrail' linking the existing TVR / Cardiff Bay line with the currently freight only Roath Dock Branch to provide a loop service from Cardiff Central to the proposed Cardiff Parkway. I think the idea is that it would be operated by Tram Trains serving the current City Line and the proposed Plasdwr / Creigiau branch.

It's a Cardiff Council proposal about which TfW seem to be fairly agnostic.

 

[the sniper]

That's the suggested 'Cardiff Crossrail' linking the existing TVR / Cardiff Bay line with the currently freight only Roath Dock Branch to provide a loop service from Cardiff Central to the proposed Cardiff Parkway. I think the idea is that it would be operated by Tram Trains serving the current City Line and the proposed Plasdwr / Creigiau branch.

At least that'd make some sense of going down the tram train route. The original main line station location would seem ideally placed to serve the entire redeveloped area.

 

[Envoy]

That's the suggested 'Cardiff Crossrail' linking the existing TVR / Cardiff Bay line with the currently freight only Roath Dock Branch to provide a loop service from Cardiff Central to the proposed Cardiff Parkway. I think the idea is that it would be operated by Tram Trains serving the current City Line and the proposed Plasdwr / Creigiau branch.

It's a Cardiff Council proposal about which TfW seem to be fairly agnostic.

I can see how Cardiff East Parkway could be served by stopping trains using the Relief lines between Cardiff & Newport but surely, they could not also have these tram-trains wandering around the Bay area streets and then taking to the relief’s to reach the Parkway?

 

[Cardiff123]

I can see how Cardiff East Parkway could be served by stopping trains using the Relief lines between Cardiff & Newport but surely, they could not also have these tram-trains wandering around the Bay area streets and then taking to the relief’s to reach the Parkway?

Why not? That's why they are called 'tram-trains', so they can run on both light rail and heavy rail infrastructure.

 

[PeterC]

The toilet issue was sorted a long time ago and it is now far too late to do anything about it onboard.
Here's an article from, oh, two years ago, saying exactly the same thing with he same quote from TFW - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49743976

I don't think it is *that* much of an issue though to be honest. The longest route will be under an hour end-to-end and trains and buses elsewhere travel further with fewer facilities. Trains will run 12 per hour from Pontypridd to Queen Street which is more than hop-on/off service.

Sounds like the Metpolitan Line although the stations there are well provided.

Digging out a 1966 coach timetable I find 2 hour gaps between loo stops pretty standard and 3 hours if you were heading for the end of the route unexceptional. Clearly far more stoical times.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I can see how Cardiff East Parkway could be served by stopping trains using the Relief lines between Cardiff & Newport but surely, they could not also have these tram-trains wandering around the Bay area streets and then taking to the relief’s to reach the Parkway?

That's the intention as I understand it although I have to admit to being dubious about it as an idea.

Why would residents of Splott and Adamsdown take a meandering tram into the centre rather than a more direct bus service and wouldn't residents of the outer eastern suburbs prefer a direct service into Central almong the relief lines?

It seems poorly thought through to me and a case of trying to find a use for an existing railway rather than thinking how best to meet demand.

 

[Envoy]

Why not? That's why they are called 'tram-trains', so they can run on both light rail and heavy rail infrastructure.

Yes, I know that they are tram-trains to enable use on heavy rail and light rail or even short sections on street. It also means that new lines - such as the desperately needed line out from Fairwater to Cregiau - can be built without the need for expensive foot bridges with lifts.

Where the freight line goes through Splott, it meets the main line just west of the Rover Way bridge. From here to Cardiff East Parkway would require these tram-trains to run a fair distance on the relief lines. These relief lines already have freight trains as well as some passenger services. What happens when the tram-trains reach Parkway? Do they just terminate and then go back? I am sure that most people who would use this new parkway station would either want a service that goes east to Newport and possibly on to Bristol TM or Cheltenham with those wishing to go west wanting a non stop service to Cardiff Central- from which they could go to the Bay by bus or tram-train from what is now the south side car park.

So, in my opinion the relief lines between STJ and Cardiff need upgrading to enable 100mph running on which electric stoppers could run and that the FLIRT trains now on order for the Cheltenham route should be ordered as bi-modes to take advantage of the overhead lines already in place. Once Bristol and Bath are wired, I would like to see electric stoppers from Cardiff going through hopefully to Bath and even on to Swindon with a new station at Corsham. The tram-trains going onto the reliefs to serve Cardiff East Parkway could surely screw up (due to street running) the schedules as the reliefs would then be more busy and have little benefit for the travelling public - apart from those in Splott wishing to go to Newport and eastward.

I could not agree more than with the comments just made by Tomos y Tanc.

 

[TravelDream]

The following link is a PDF of plans for the Atlantic Wharf area of Cardiff Bay. It is relevant to this thread because it shows a proposed Metro route at street level through the Bay area extending from what is now Cardiff Bay station. https://atlanticwharfcardiff.co.uk/...1/07/Atlantic-Wharf-Webinar-1-6-July-2021.pdf

Don't forget these are very early plans.
There have been many in the Bay that haven't come to much. Look at Cardiff Pointe (sports village area). There were incredibly grand plans, but not much was actually built.
In fact, the Council recently bought back the land from the developer as (quote) 'buying land owned by developers Greenbank, the council is hoping to speed up the development of the International Sports Village and its master plan for the area.'

Cardiff council to buy large area of International Sports Village

Development in the area has "stagnated" recently

www.walesonline.co.uk

I am not sure how much development they are expecting down the Bay, but I can't imagine there's going to be quite this much in the next decade or two. The advantage that the Arena area has it it's better connected even if the new tram-train link isn't built. Cardiff Pointe is quite isolated for those without a car.

 

[Envoy]

I am not sure how much development they are expecting down the Bay, but I can't imagine there's going to be quite this much in the next decade or two. The advantage that the Arena area has it it's better connected even if the new tram-train link isn't built. Cardiff Pointe is quite isolated for those without a car.

The Cardiff Pointe area - that’s the west Bay area where the swimming pool, ice rink and white water rapids are located - is just a short walk from Cogan station via the Pont-Y-Werin footbridge. The trouble is that nobody can be bothered to put a walkway from Cogan station - using the rail underpass to avoid the main road - and thus reach the path to the Pont-Y-Werin. The benefit of this would be massive for relatively little cost in the grand scheme of things.

A new station on the Penarth Line by Tesco’s (Cogan) car park would also serve Penarth Marina & the Cardiff Ponte (Sports Village area). It was plain dumb of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation to have allocated this land for a supermarket rather than a station with parking.

 

[MikePJ]

The Cardiff Pointe area - that’s the west Bay area where the swimming pool, ice rink and white water rapids are located - is just a short walk from Cogan station via the Pont-Y-Werin footbridge. The trouble is that nobody can be bothered to put a walkway from Cogan station - using the rail underpass to avoid the main road - and thus reach the path to the Pont-Y-Werin. The benefit of this would be massive for relatively little cost in the grand scheme of things.

A new station on the Penarth Line by Tesco’s (Cogan) car park would also serve Penarth Marina & the Cardiff Ponte (Sports Village area). It was plain dumb of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation to have allocated this land for a supermarket rather than a station with parking.

Cogan station used to be in two halves either side of the main road, with platforms on both branches. The old Penarth line station building is still there - it's now "Snowdrop Independent Living", a shop selling mobility scooters and stairlifts.

I agree that a footbridge and a redesign of the Tesco car park would be a nice idea to improve access to the Sports Village. It might even be fundable from "active travel" (walking/cycling) funding schemes.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

A new station on the Penarth Line by Tesco’s (Cogan) car park would also serve Penarth Marina & the Cardiff Ponte (Sports Village area). It was plain dumb of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation to have allocated this land for a supermarket rather than a station with parking.

I may be wrong on this but I seem to remember that the developement of Penarth Marina including the Tescos store predated CBDC.

Your basic point is bang on of course.

 

[Cardiff123]

Cogan station used to be in two halves either side of the main road, with platforms on both branches. The old Penarth line station building is still there - it's now "Snowdrop Independent Living", a shop selling mobility scooters and stairlifts.

I agree that a footbridge and a redesign of the Tesco car park would be a nice idea to improve access to the Sports Village. It might even be fundable from "active travel" (walking/cycling) funding schemes.

Strictly speaking, there have never been two Cogan stations on the different lines. The station on the Penarth branch was known as 'Penarth Docks'.
The Tesco car park is definitely big enough for some of it to be taken away and given back to the railway. Although it is impossible to imagine Penarth now without this Tesco store - it's hugely popular.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks for today’s responses concerning Cogan.

I don’t see why a footway can’t be built from the Cardiff bound platform at Cogan utilising the space under the road bridge (1) and then up and over the railway through the trees shown in photo 2 to reach the path to Pont-Y-Werin (3) and the ‘sport area’. Photo 4 shows the terrible situation we have today whereby some people - including children - risk crossing the main road to get from the station to the Bay area. Photo 5 shows the Penarth line with Tesco’s car park through the trees on the left.

 

[MikePJ]

The station on the Penarth branch was known as 'Penarth Docks'.

Good to know, thanks! I'm just moving into the area so I'm still getting to grips with it all.

Photo 4 shows the terrible situation we have today whereby some people - including children - risk crossing the main road to get from the station to the Bay area.

That's definitely the sort of thing that could be sorted out with Active Travel funding. "Improving access to public transport for pedestrians and cyclists" always scores highly on those proposals, from experience.

 

[Dai Corner]

Many thanks for today’s responses concerning Cogan.

I don’t see why a footway can’t be built from the Cardiff bound platform at Cogan utilising the space under the road bridge (1) and then up and over the railway through the trees shown in photo 2 to reach the path to Pont-Y-Werin (3) and the ‘sport area’. Photo 4 shows the terrible situation we have today whereby some people - including children - risk crossing the main road to get from the station to the Bay area. Photo 5 shows the Penarth line with Tesco’s car park through the trees on the left.

A zebra or pelican crossing might be a quicker and cheaper solution?

 

[Cardiff123]

Deleted

 

[adrock1976]

A zebra or pelican crossing might be a quicker and cheaper solution?

Maybe, but ideally for active travel routes (not a new thing, as the Mark I New Towns such as Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Glenrothes etc had deliberately designed them for pedestrians and pedal bicycles to be segregated from the motorised traffic, meaning that there are several underpasses and overbridges to help avoid crossing at grade) we should be segregating pedestrians and bicycles from motorised traffic as much as possible.

 

[Dai Corner]

Maybe, but ideally for active travel routes (not a new thing, as the Mark I New Towns such as Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Glenrothes etc had deliberately designed them for pedestrians and pedal bicycles to be segregated from the motorised traffic, meaning that there are several underpasses and overbridges to help avoid crossing at grade) we should be segregating pedestrians and bicycles from motorised traffic as much as possible.

I'd rather see a pragmatic solution implemented quickly than years of campaigning and negotiation involving four different authorities.