South Wales 'Metro' updates

[HowardGWR]

Very interesting points made. Would it not be possible to have two half hourly services to Cardiff, one direct, one reversing at Newport, as a sort of half way house. The 'via Newport' ones could perhaps split / join there and one half run on to further eastern destinations? Alternatively, just have a Cardiff direct during commuting hours?

 

[MarkyT]

Very interesting points made. Would it not be possible to have two half hourly services to Cardiff, one direct, one reversing at Newport, as a sort of half way house. The 'via Newport' ones could perhaps split / join there and one half run on to further eastern destinations? Alternatively, just have a Cardiff direct during commuting hours?

I like that last idea. Run the standard half hourly via Newport always and add some extra peak-buster specials avoiding the reversal in the morning and evening. The expanded double track infrastructure should be able to handle that. You could also use 158s or other 90MPH+ units so the trains could take full advantage of the line speed on the mains for the express hop between Newport and Cardiff. I don't see much benefit in through running from Ebbw Vale to the east however, the big draw is always going to be Cardiff, but stopping at Newport gives access to that City's good range of onward connecting services to England etc, without the time consuming trip (at extra expense) to Cardiff and back.

 

[RP]

I like that last idea. Run the standard half hourly via Newport always and add some extra peak-buster specials avoiding the reversal in the morning and evening. The expanded double track infrastructure should be able to handle that. You could also use 158s or other 90MPH+ units so the trains could take full advantage of the line speed on the mains for the express hop between Newport and Cardiff. I don't see much benefit in through running from Ebbw Vale to the east however, the big draw is always going to be Cardiff, but stopping at Newport gives access to that City's good range of onward connecting services to England etc, without the time consuming trip (at extra expense) to Cardiff and back.

Sounds like a excellent idea - in fact in a posting on a similar thread I made the same point about three years ago - salient points below:

"I've also wondered whether an half hourly service to Cardiff with alternating trains reversing at Newport might be less difficult than running to a turnaround siding (being suggested in SEWTA reports at the time). The longer journey time is usually cited as a disadvantage but I note that the overall single journey from Cardiff to Ebbw Vale via Newport is just 10 minutes longer. Much better than a Newport service being further postponed."

If direct services extend to Cardiff and Maesteg/Vale of Glamorgan and 'via Newport' services go only to Cardiff or say, Penarth or Radyr, the half hourly service aspiration is maintained without terminating at Cardiff or Newport. Maybe a thought?

 

[Envoy]

It has been reported that we can have "fresh hope" that the Aberdare to Hirwaun passenger rail line will be re-opened. Goodness knows why it is "a long term vision". I would have thought that it would have been one of the first priorities of the South Wales Metro being as the route remained open for freight traffic to the Tower Colliery until recent times. It would also be prudent to get this link opened before the electrification work reaches the Cynon Valley as it would surely cost much more to have the line to Aberdare wired and then at a later date, have to go back & electrify Aberdare to Hirwaun.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/fresh-hope-reopening-aberdare-hirwaun-9641659#rlabs=5

QUOTE: At the Senedd last week, Mrs Hart said: “Connectivity between Aberdare and Hirwaun is a long-term vision for the metro, and my officials have started to develop options to provide the necessary infrastructure for potential additional services on the Aberdare line at a future date.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

It has been reported that we can have "fresh hope" that the Aberdare to Hirwaun passenger rail line will be re-opened. Goodness knows why it is "a long term vision". I would have thought that it would have been one of the first priorities of the South Wales Metro .....

I seem to remember an announcement was made on the eve of the last Assembly Election that this would go ahead. Here we go again. It is, in modern parlance, a 'no brainer' and an easy gain to make because the railway is still there. Of course there would need to be a lot of thought about timetables and so on but it's hardly the Waverley Route.

 

[Solaris]

Some relevant Metro references in recently published WG National Transport Finance Plan....

http://gov.wales/topics/transport/planning-strategies/ntp/?lang=en

 

[damo44]

With electrification I do think new stations in Cardiff at Ely Mill/Bridge on both the city line and south wales mainline along with new stations at Adamstown and St Mellons on the relief lines.

A new station at Crwys Road/Albany road on the Rhymney line is also another opportunity

Coming to this thread late...

I recall having very similar thoughts to these many years ago.

1. As a former commuter from Coryton to Queen Street it seemed peculiar that you had possible the densest cluster of stations in the country (5 stations in 1.5 miles on the same line, then a short journey to Heath (.8 mile), then what seemed like a long run to Queen Street, although I see now that it was less than 3 miles - everything's relative.

Crwys Road/Albany Road although not exactly mid-distance would make sense being a busy shopping and student area (or at least it was when I lived there).

Do you think there;s a case for thinning out the other stations? I wouldn't normally suggest closing stations, but for the sake of journey times maybe Whitchurch and Birchgrove could go, I was very surprised when Ty Glas was opened in the mid-80s IIRC as it was only a couple of hundred metres from Rhiwbina.

2. I also lived near St Fagans, so was aware of the history of that village's station and other closed ones along the S Wales main line such as Ely

I remember looking (unsuccessfully) for data that showed the number of passenger and freight movements along that corridor a) when there was a local stopping service in the late 50s early 60s and b) today - to understand whether there's enough line capacity to build new stations and reinstate services

 

[anthony263]

SEWTA did put forward a local service of 2tph Maesteg in addition a 2tph from Beddau in addition to the 3-4tph from Swansea and 2 freight paths.

The main issue is the different profiles of freight, fast & stopping services electrification could allow the local services to have improved acceleration which would help the situation and allow extra stations calls while keeping out of the way of the faster services.

There was talk of a new station at Miskin where the platforms would be built alongside the loops allowing trains to be overtaken while stopped at the station

 

[Envoy]

There was talk of a new station at Miskin where the platforms would be built alongside the loops allowing trains to be overtaken while stopped at the station

Yes, and it would take only about 12 minutes to reach Cardiff Central. They could use the Renishaw car-park as the station car park & build a new one for Renishaw on the other side of their premises. The downside of building a new station at Miskin is that some people, from further west, might decide to drive to Miskin before switching to the train for the final bit into Cardiff. Thus, the railways would lose revenue from longer journeys & the M4 would be more busy.

I also note that the car parking around Pontyclun station is fully occupied during the working week yet no attempt has been made to use derelict railway land to increase the number of spaces.

Believe it or not, about 1 mile further east from Miskin (J34), the Cardiff Council Local Development Plan proposes to build a business park on the north side of M4 J33 (Cardiff West) & have a Park & Ride car park at this location with buses taking people to central Cardiff via Culverhouse Cross, Ely & Canton. Such a journey would take at least 30 minutes along congested roads. Of course, this could all be a plot to hoodwink the Welsh Government into allowing the business park in what is now open countryside by claiming it is a 'sustainable' development as workers could get to the site by public transport rather than car. If allowed, the impact on causing yet more congestion at J33 would be massive & hinder traffic flows to/from the M4 & west Cardiff, the Bay, Barry, the Airport & the rest of the Vale of Glamorgan. (Current works only make dedicated left turns - they do not provide for a free flowing junction for right turning traffic).

 

[damo44]

Believe it or not, about 1 mile further east from Miskin (J34), the Cardiff Council Local Development Plan proposes to build a business park on the north side of M4 J33 (Cardiff West) & have a Park & Ride car park at this location with buses taking people to central Cardiff via Culverhouse Cross, Ely & Canton. Such a journey would take at least 30 minutes along congested roads.

Is this route quicker or slower than going via J32 and A470 into the centre? I don't know how congested either route is these days.

If allowed, the impact on causing yet more congestion at J33 would be massive & hinder traffic flows to/from the M4 & west Cardiff, the Bay, Barry, the Airport & the rest of the Vale of Glamorgan. (Current works only make dedicated left turns - they do not provide for a free flowing junction for right turning traffic).

Is the business park big enough to have that much effect on the junction? Having said that there must be other places near Cardiff (like Miskin) which either have an existing station or are at least adjacent to an existing railway line.

In fact building on yet more countryside when there are brownfield, rail connected, sites to the north of Cardiff is a shame. (And no I can't specifically name one off the top of my head but the valleys surely have a lot of disused industrial land with rail and road connections.

 

[Envoy]

Is this route quicker or slower than going via J32 and A470 into the centre? I don't know how congested either route is these days.



Is the business park big enough to have that much effect on the junction? Having said that there must be other places near Cardiff (like Miskin) which either have an existing station or are at least adjacent to an existing railway line.

In fact building on yet more countryside when there are brownfield, rail connected, sites to the north of Cardiff is a shame. (And no I can't specifically name one off the top of my head but the valleys surely have a lot of disused industrial land with rail and road connections.

Yes, the business park & associated car park entrance will make J33 yet more congested. This is a strategic regional junction and needs flyovers! All routes into Cardiff are congested.

They did not choose Miskin - despite it having a mainline already in place, because it is not in the County of Cardiff. Cardiff Council can only prepare plans up to their county boundary. Many would argue that we need a regional approach to planning in congested south-east Wales so we can protect areas of attractive countryside (such as that surrounding Cardiff) whilst utilizing brownfield land in the valleys and places like Barry docks. The Welsh Government have set up a Cardiff City Wide Regional organisation to encompass the wider area but they do not seem to have control over the things that matter - such as planning the best use for land. (The developers would much prefer to use the attractive countryside surrounding Cardiff).

The Local Development Plan for Cardiff is currently being examined by Welsh Government Inspectors.

Much of the development over the countryside from NW Cardiff (Radyr, Pentrebane/ St.Fagans through to Cregiau) is based on the possible re-building of the single track railway that ran from the City Line at Fairwater to Cregiau and beyond. You can read more about it on the following sites:>

http://planning.cardiff.gov.uk/onli...iveTab=documents&keyVal=_CARDIFF_DCAPR_107951

This one covers land nearer to Cardiff (Pentrebane/ Radyr/ St.Fagans).http://plasdwr.co.uk/planning/

 

[damo44]

Yes, the business park & associated car park entrance will make J33 yet more congested. This is a strategic regional junction and needs flyovers! All routes into Cardiff are congested.

OK, I'll take your word that the business park will generate enough traffic to
worsen the congestion at J33. I rarely drive around Cardiff when it's busy so don't really have any first hand experience of how traffic has increased in the 25 years since I lived there.

They did not choose Miskin - despite it having a mainline already in place, because it is not in the County of Cardiff. Cardiff Council can only prepare plans up to their county boundary.

Ah I see, I hadn't considered that.

Many would argue that we need a regional approach to planning in congested south-east Wales so we can protect areas of attractive countryside

I agree. I suppose it was slightly better when it was S Glam, but not much so. The geography of South Wales is such that the Valleys and their (former) port cities have a very close relationship when it comes to transport. If there isn't a single authority that can plan transport and development for Cardiff, the Vale and the Taff, Rhondda, Cynon and Rhymney valeys etc. (likewise for Swansea and Newport) that it's shortsighted IMHO

Much of the development over the countryside from NW Cardiff (Radyr, Pentrebane/ St.Fagans through to Cregiau) is based on the possible re-building of the single track railway that ran from the City Line at Fairwater to Cregiau and beyond.

I think I looked into this quite recently, I forget why. Most of the trackbed looked intact except for some quite modern looking housing right at the junction site. Only a few houses, but could be a bit of an obstacle.

 

[Tumbleweed]

OK, I'll take your word that the business park will generate enough traffic to
worsen the congestion at J33. I rarely drive around Cardiff when it's busy so don't really have any first hand experience of how traffic has increased in the 25 years since I lived there.



Ah I see, I hadn't considered that.



I agree. I suppose it was slightly better when it was S Glam, but not much so. The geography of South Wales is such that the Valleys and their (former) port cities have a very close relationship when it comes to transport. If there isn't a single authority that can plan transport and development for Cardiff, the Vale and the Taff, Rhondda, Cynon and Rhymney valeys etc. (likewise for Swansea and Newport) that it's shortsighted IMHO



I think I looked into this quite recently, I forget why. Most of the trackbed looked intact except for some quite modern looking housing right at the junction site. Only a few houses, but could be a bit of an obstacle.

The reorganisation of county councils in 1996 was a disaster. How a country the size of Wales needs 22 separate councils is way beyond any sensible person.

Anyway, back to the point, hopefully we'll hear more about new railways, buses etc in the Autumn.

 

[Envoy]

The reorganisation of county councils in 1996 was a disaster. How a country the size of Wales needs 22 separate councils is way beyond any sensible person.

Anyway, back to the point, hopefully we'll hear more about new railways, buses etc in the Autumn.

Yes, the 1996 reorganisation of counties was a disaster and now the Welsh Government are thinking about amalgamating many of these local fiefdoms back to form larger counties. So, we might for example see Cardiff once again combine with the Vale of Glamorgan to form South Glamorgan - or whatever they now decide to call it. That means that the Welsh Government have required the present counties to draw up Local Development Plans on counties that they may abolish in the not too distant future. Thus we have at present, new housing projects going on in the Wenvoe - Culverhouse Cross area creating an urban sprawl between Barry & Cardiff yet this housing does not count as Cardiff's housing stock. Hence the reason why we have another proposed urban sprawl through the countryside running NW from Cardiff.

BTW, if the extensive areas of housing proposed for farmlands north of St.Fagans go ahead, it will mean that St.Fagans level crossing will see a vast increase in traffic as that will be the shortest route between the Plasdwr development and Culverhouse Cross with links to Barry, the Airport, Cowbridge etc. Based on the amount of traffic already going over St.Fagans level crossing & the relatively high number of trains, we could see a situation where the road traffic could not be cleared quickly enough between the gates being closed again for the trains. (It already happens in some instances leading to long tailbacks).

 

[krus_aragon]

Yes, the 1996 reorganisation of counties was a disaster

Given the subsequent establishment of the Welsh Assembly, and devolutuion of powers there from Westminster, yes. But bear in mind that reorganisation of counties had been in the pipeline since the early 90s under the Tories, before Labour's devolution referendum came to pass.

 

[Solaris]

This from Minister's statement at end of June...

http://www.assembly.wales/en/bus-home/pages/rop.aspx?MeetingID=3175&language=en#230684

and this re NTP, Metro and work I/P

http://gov.wales/topics/transport/planning-strategies/ntp/?lang=en

 

[oglord]

The reorganisation of county councils in 1996 was a disaster. How a country the size of Wales needs 22 separate councils is way beyond any sensible person.

Er, there were 45 councils between 1974 and 1996, so how can a reduction of more than a half be seen as a bad thing? Frankly the 1974 reorganisation was the disastrous one. Not just for ruining people's identity, but for the fact that it robbed the county boroughs of their powers, mixed urban and rural areas together and introduced the agency model where both tiers of government had to maintain, for example, separate transport departments.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Er, there were 45 councils between 1974 and 1996, so how can a reduction of more than a half be seen as a bad thing? Frankly the 1974 reorganisation was the disastrous one. Not just for ruining people's identity, but for the fact that it robbed the county boroughs of their powers, mixed urban and rural areas together and introduced the agency model where both tiers of government had to maintain, for example, separate transport departments.

Well, 45 or 22, still insane.

 

[CapitalStar378]

This from Minister's statement at end of June...

http://www.assembly.wales/en/bus-home/pages/rop.aspx?MeetingID=3175&language=en#230684

and this re NTP, Metro and work I/P

http://gov.wales/topics/transport/planning-strategies/ntp/?lang=en

So the bay light rail/rail extension is planned for 2020 apparently, not exactly a challenging timeline :roll:

 

[Envoy]

So the bay light rail/rail extension is planned for 2020 apparently, not exactly a challenging timeline :roll:

Things don't happen quickly in Wales! The A4232 Bay Expressway was opened in 1993 by the Queen - you can see the plague & stone as you emerge from the tunnel to the roundabout going east. We are still waiting for this road to be completed to link with the A48 / M4 on the eastern side of Cardiff. (The entire population of Penarth either have to drive through Cardiff to reach the M4 (east) or go the long way round via J33).

Likewise, the new south Newport M4 has not been built and the politicians are still debating as to whether it should be built or a cheaper version by 'doing up' roads through south Newport. Meanwhile, at peak times, massive traffic jams build up around Newport due to the restriction to 2 lanes at the tunnel.

The Welsh Government elections are next spring. It looks like Labour along with the Conservatives tend to favour the building of a proper motorway south of Newport to get traffic virtually straight through to the Severn Bridge from Castleton. Plaid Cymru are against the spending of so much money in SE Wales. (Such a new motorway would benefit south west Wales as well). Not sure where the Liberals stand on the matter.

Barry & Cardiff Airport have also seen plans to link Cardiff & the M4 with dual highways cancelled. Millions has been spend on consultants - usually ARAP - all for nothing.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Things don't happen quickly in Wales! The A4232 Bay Expressway was opened in 1993 by the Queen - you can see the plague & stone as you emerge from the tunnel to the roundabout going east. We are still waiting for this road to be completed to link with the A48 / M4 on the eastern side of Cardiff. (The entire population of Penarth either have to drive through Cardiff to reach the M4 (east) or go the long way round via J33).

Likewise, the new south Newport M4 has not been built and the politicians are still debating as to whether it should be built or a cheaper version by 'doing up' roads through south Newport. Meanwhile, at peak times, massive traffic jams build up around Newport due to the restriction to 2 lanes at the tunnel.

The Welsh Government elections are next spring. It looks like Labour along with the Conservatives tend to favour the building of a proper motorway south of Newport to get traffic virtually straight through to the Severn Bridge from Castleton. Plaid Cymru are against the spending of so much money in SE Wales. (Such a new motorway would benefit south west Wales as well). Not sure where the Liberals stand on the matter.

Barry & Cardiff Airport have also seen plans to link Cardiff & the M4 with dual highways cancelled. Millions has been spend on consultants - usually ARAP - all for nothing.

If Labour doesn't get a majority next year then its very unlikely the M4 relief road will happen. They should do the cheaper option and spend the rest on the Metro.

Any new M4 road would be OK for a few years then it would become badly congested as is the case with most new roads. I really can't see the point of spending at least a billion quid on 10 miles of road.

 

[oglord]

If Labour doesn't get a majority next year then its very unlikely the M4 relief road will happen. They should do the cheaper option and spend the rest on the Metro.

The "cheaper option" is not really an option. The A48 through the south of Newport is completely unsuitable as a limited-access through-road. It was only updated as a distributor road in 2006: How exactly would the politicians reconcile the two different types of traffic?

 

[Tumbleweed]

The "cheaper option" is not really an option. The A48 through the south of Newport is completely unsuitable as a limited-access through-road. It was only updated as a distributor road in 2006: How exactly would the politicians reconcile the two different types of traffic?

Well thats the problem with the current M4, too much local traffic using the M4 as ring road. There are too many accesses/exits on it through Newport itslef.

Think what kind of public transport system we could have for a billion quid. Building more roads is a 1960's/70's solution which has become (except for some in the Welsh Office) an outdated, expensive idea.

 

[HowardGWR]

The peak time queues on the M4 tunnel are a tailor-made reason to cater for commuters instead with mass transit. If you build them urban motorways you just put the modal shift possibilities back another decade or two until the new capacity becomes clogged again. The southern improvements suggested by that Prof (forgot his name, sorry) could be done for a third the price. I suspect that is what will be done eventually.

This issue is of great importance to the possible improvement of a South Wales 'metro' service. I imagine many here will be putting in lobbying letters to potential AMs.

 

[Envoy]

Well thats the problem with the current M4, too much local traffic using the M4 as ring road. There are too many accesses/exits on it through Newport itslef.

Think what kind of public transport system we could have for a billion quid. Building more roads is a 1960's/70's solution which has become (except for some in the Welsh Office) an outdated, expensive idea.

The Newport section - along with Port Talbot, were the first bits of the M4 to open in south Wales - in 1966. In fact, the Newport section continued through to the old Severn Bridge all built with 2 lanes each way. I can see why they built it going north of Newport and with all the interchanges. This was to bring modern communications to the various valleys to the north. Had these interchanges not been inserted, then you would have had traffic from these valleys going on long detours through northern Newport in order to gain access to the M4. In fact, that is one of the problems in north Cardiff where you have one big interchange (32) and nothing else apart from the difficult to reach (from Thornhill / Lisvane etc.) J30. Hence, masses of traffic driving on suburban roads in north Cardiff.

No doubt a lot of the rail fans on here will be against the building of a south Newport M4. The fact is that no amount of trying to get people to shift to rail is going to rid the M4 of traffic - although with decent trains and the cessation of all this book a specific train 10 weeks in advance nonsense to get a decent fare - would help. Then you have people who need a car at the other end because they are going touring in the Cotswolds/Pembrokeshire
or whatever. (It takes 1 hour 30 minutes to get from Cardiff to Tenby by car but 3 hours by train and the trains are every other hour and usually 2 coaches packed out in summer west of Swansea).

The present M4 at Newport is also fairly dangerous due to bends and hills plus the tunnel. If a crash happens - that's the whole of south Wales cut off for perhaps several hours. If I had my way we would build the full motorway standard route and include an interchange to serve Newport docks - which would hopefully revive south Newport. In fact, I would continue with another road immediately south of the railway to connect with the A4232 on the southern end of the Rumney flyover. (No doubt the Greens would be harping on about it crossing Sites of Special Scientific Interest - but this land is not natural - it is artificially drained farmland).

Brunel & the other Victorians must be turning in their graves to see the problems of getting anything done these days. Mind you, Brunel would also be amazed that our once great industrial nation has had to ask the Japanese to show us how to build trains. He would also be amazed that these trains are no faster than those introduced 40 years ago.

http://www.m4newport.com/preferred-route.html

http://www.m4newport.com/the-draft-plan.html

 

[Tumbleweed]

The Newport section - along with Port Talbot, were the first bits of the M4 to open in south Wales - in 1966. In fact, the Newport section continued through to the old Severn Bridge all built with 2 lanes each way. I can see why they built it going north of Newport and with all the interchanges. This was to bring modern communications to the various valleys to the north. Had these interchanges not been inserted, then you would have had traffic from these valleys going on long detours through northern Newport in order to gain access to the M4. In fact, that is one of the problems in north Cardiff where you have one big interchange (32) and nothing else apart from the difficult to reach (from Thornhill / Lisvane etc.) J30. Hence, masses of traffic driving on suburban roads in north Cardiff.

No doubt a lot of the rail fans on here will be against the building of a south Newport M4. The fact is that no amount of trying to get people to shift to rail is going to rid the M4 of traffic - although with decent trains and the cessation of all this book a specific train 10 weeks in advance nonsense to get a decent fare - would help. Then you have people who need a car at the other end because they are going touring in the Cotswolds/Pembrokeshire
or whatever. (It takes 1 hour 30 minutes to get from Cardiff to Tenby by car but 3 hours by train and the trains are every other hour and usually 2 coaches packed out in summer west of Swansea).

The present M4 at Newport is also fairly dangerous due to bends and hills plus the tunnel. If a crash happens - that's the whole of south Wales cut off for perhaps several hours. If I had my way we would build the full motorway standard route and include an interchange to serve Newport docks - which would hopefully revive south Newport. In fact, I would continue with another road immediately south of the railway to connect with the A4232 on the southern end of the Rumney flyover. (No doubt the Greens would be harping on about it crossing Sites of Special Scientific Interest - but this land is not natural - it is artificially drained farmland).

Brunel & the other Victorians must be turning in their graves to see the problems of getting anything done these days. Mind you, Brunel would also be amazed that our once great industrial nation has had to ask the Japanese to show us how to build trains. He would also be amazed that these trains are no faster than those introduced 40 years ago.

Agree with you about the original plans for the M4 - but since the 60's there have been alterations (Tredegar Park, Malpas Road) have made some exits/accesses redundant. There is no need for an eastbound access on the Malpas junction now, and probably High Cross doesn't need a junction anymore either. I remember on TV a few months ago this guy who lived in Newport saying he wanted the new road built so he 'could get from one side of town to another quicker', which is exactly the problem. No new road will cure this.

The point is the more roads you build (and lets face it, the HGV lobby want it more than anyone) the more traffic it will attract.

Upgrade roads by all means, but better public transport and not just rail would be money better spent.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No doubt a lot of the rail fans on here will be against the building of a south Newport M4. The fact is that no amount of trying to get people to shift to rail is going to rid the M4 of traffic

I don't think it's about being a rail fan, it's about being realistic and looking at the long term effects of building a new motorway. It's been found time and time again that building roads tends to attract more cars onto them, with the result that after a few years you're no better off, and the congestion simply migrates to the roads that feed into wherever the new road you've built is.

There's probably no realistic way we're ever going to eliminate congestion and traffic jams in the foreseeable future, but most cost effective way of making as much impact as you can does seem to be to improve public transport (and cycling/walking facilities) so that more people are able to make their journeys without using their cars - which of course also slightly frees up road space for those who still have no choice.

(It takes 1 hour 30 minutes to get from Cardiff to Tenby by car but 3 hours by train and the trains are every other hour and usually 2 coaches packed out in summer west of Swansea).

That sentence sounds to me like a textbook example of why we need investment in railways far more than we need investment in roads.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Parts of the metro project have EU money marked against them in the National Transport Plan whereas the road schemes on the whole don't , so with cuts in the budget coming it would appear that what remains of the capital investment budget will have to match fund. The wales and border franchise will just be too hard to unpick to have any cuts to the agreement so the road schemes will have to take the hit.

 

[Envoy]

An article has appeared on Media Wales (Western Mail/ South Wales Echo) by Freshwater PR CEO Steve Howell suggesting that trams would be a better solution than normal rail for the 'Metro'.

Are trams really suitable for journeys that could last well over an hour between the heads of the Valleys and places such as Barry Island & Penarth = just over 30 miles end to end? Surely, such distances are much greater than any other tram network that exists in Britain today? Would not the trams be much slower than modern light weight electric trains? Surely, speed is of the essence is trying to link the poorer communities at the heads of the valleys with the more prosperous Cardiff area? That being so, increasing the number of stops would surely put these communities further away from Cardiff time wise?

He suggests that trams could give increased frequencies but surely, that would require that the single track sections in the upper valleys are re-doubled?

What about the new Hitachi trains coming to the Great Western Mainline. If the line to Barry is a 750 volt tram system, surely, these express trains would not be able to use the Vale of Glamorgan coast line as a diversionary route in the event of an incident/ engineering on the main line?

What about the present Valley Line train drivers? You surely would not be able to pay tram drivers the £40,000 or so salaries that these train drivers get due to each tram having a lower payload? Would they all be fired and then have to apply for jobs on perhaps half that amount as tram drivers?

QUOTE: "These days the word is synonymous with light rail – or trams to most of us - with regions such as Greater Manchester and Tyne and Wear setting the pace.
When the Metro first emerged four years ago as a concept in Wales, courtesy of a report commissioned by the Cardiff Business Partnership, the Manchester model was very much what we had in mind".

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-opinion/south-wales-metro-needs-based-9774875

 

[edwin_m]

An article has appeared on Media Wales (Western Mail/ South Wales Echo) by Freshwater PR CEO Steve Howell suggesting that trams would be a better solution than normal rail for the 'Metro'.

Are trams really suitable for journeys that could last well over an hour between the heads of the Valleys and places such as Barry Island & Penarth = just over 30 miles end to end? Surely, such distances are much greater than any other tram network that exists in Britain today? Would not the trams be much slower than modern light weight electric trains? Surely, speed is of the essence is trying to link the poorer communities at the heads of the valleys with the more prosperous Cardiff area? That being so, increasing the number of stops would surely put these communities further away from Cardiff time wise?

He suggests that trams could give increased frequencies but surely, that would require that the single track sections in the upper valleys are re-doubled?

What about the new Hitachi trains coming to the Great Western Mainline. If the line to Barry is a 750 volt tram system, surely, these express trains would not be able to use the Vale of Glamorgan coast line as a diversionary route in the event of an incident/ engineering on the main line?

What about the present Valley Line train drivers? You surely would not be able to pay tram drivers the £40,000 or so salaries that these train drivers get due to each tram having a lower payload? Would they all be fired and then have to apply for jobs on perhaps half that amount as tram drivers?

QUOTE: "These days the word is synonymous with light rail – or trams to most of us - with regions such as Greater Manchester and Tyne and Wear setting the pace.
When the Metro first emerged four years ago as a concept in Wales, courtesy of a report commissioned by the Cardiff Business Partnership, the Manchester model was very much what we had in mind".

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-opinion/south-wales-metro-needs-based-9774875

Rochdale to East Didsbury on Metrolink is (I think) the longest UK tram journey at well over an hour. But on that route hardly anyone would do the whole journey, whereas from the far terminus of each Valley line most people are probably heading for Cardiff most of the way to the other end of the line.

If a light rail solution was adopted it would probably be a tram-train not a tram, and could have a more suitable interior for longer journeys and perhaps even toilets. These vehicles can also run on 25kV electrification to share tracks with other electric trains. However it's probably only worth doing if there is somewhere useful they could run to off the existing railway, and I don't see that happening with the existing Valley lines. There is maybe some scope to create some new tram or tram-train routes where there are no railways today.