South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Topological]

The trouble is that with people driving in to central Cardiff from all directions and aiming for John Lewis / St.David’s 2 car parks, that they all get jammed up. Indeed, once full, many will sit in their cars waiting for a slot to gain entry. I really do wonder how many of those people would have been better off travelling by train to central Cardiff? Don't get me wrong - I am not anti car but consider that we should use the best form of transport depending on where we are going. Going to the centre of a compact city like Cardiff is surely better by rail than by car - hence all the money going into the Metro and better main line trains.

I have never queued to park in Cardiff. Though I have seen people queue.

It would take a lot to make the train in the Swansea direction work better. West of Bridgend there are two trains around 10 minutes apart leaving Cardiff.

To get the speed for Port Talbot et al. into Cardiff it needs the stopping trains to move out of the way, but that is hard on a double-track line.

Then there are the prices.

IF they solve it by increasing parking prices in central Cardiff, it will only drive retail park visits (the West Cardiff retail park majorly clogs up the A48 junction already).

Cardiffs metro can do a lot, but it would be unwise to make driving in harder.

 

[Envoy]

I hate driving in Cardiff and avoid it like the plague but still have to drive about 10miles to most convenient station of Newport.
Nearest station is Severn Tunnel Junction but is 3 miles in wrong direction and ticket costs twice as much as Newport and then parking on top. Metro is a great idea if it's near where you live but we need a station in Magor otherwise some of us will continue to need to drive. Is there one proposed (I know there's an action group campaigning for one but seems falling on deaf ears)?

Interesting points made Richard. They have been talking for years about having a station at Magor and STJ is not exactly easy to drive in and out of. The charging for parking at STJ on top of increased rail fare v going to Newport is doing nothing to entice people out of their cars and switch to rail to reach Cardiff.

I have never queued to park in Cardiff. Though I have seen people queue.

It would take a lot to make the train in the Swansea direction work better. West of Bridgend there are two trains around 10 minutes apart leaving Cardiff.

To get the speed for Port Talbot et al. into Cardiff it needs the stopping trains to move out of the way, but that is hard on a double-track line.

Then there are the prices.

IF they solve it by increasing parking prices in central Cardiff, it will only drive retail park visits (the West Cardiff retail park majorly clogs up the A48 junction already).

Cardiffs metro can do a lot, but it would be unwise to make driving in harder.

Hopefully, when the new schedules come in, the spacing of trains west of Cardiff will be more even and long distance trains won’t have to stop at the smaller stations such as Pyle & Pontyclun.

It’s great that Cardiff has a thriving retail centre, unlike, say, Bristol. Knowing some people who go from North Somerset by train to shop there, it may well be that the proximity to the retail centre of the rail stations is a major reason why it hasn’t suffered like some others.

Good point and interesting to know that people from N Somerset are travelling to Cardiff rather than Bristol. I guess that the hourly direct all stops trains have helped induce these people to go to Cardiff. You leave the central station and just walk a short distance and have a thriving city centre with modern malls and older arcades as well as the castle & museum all nearby plus restaurants - many with outside seating. This is far better than the rather soulless Cribb’s Causeway Mall.

Cardiff is really lucky in inheriting the local rail network from the age of coal & this links the valleys with the coast. Indeed, what is now the City Line was originally just used by coal trains and it was the former South Glamorgan County Council who helped fund the building of stations on this line in west Cardiff. Unfortunately, the Metro service on this line can’t be increased from that of half hourly due to constraints at Cardiff West junction (by Canton depot). They really do need to find the funding to get this sorted out so that maximum benefit can be derived from the Metro money already spent.

It seems to be that Bristol is being left behind as far as urban transport is concerned. Once the Metro is up and running in SE Wales, the difference will be massive.

 

[Llanigraham]

The trouble is that with people driving in to central Cardiff from all directions and aiming for John Lewis / St.David’s 2 car parks, that they all get jammed up. Indeed, once full, many will sit in their cars waiting for a slot to gain entry. I really do wonder how many of those people would have been better off travelling by train to central Cardiff? Don't get me wrong - I am not anti car but consider that we should use the best form of transport depending on where we are going. Going to the centre of a compact city like Cardiff is surely better by rail than by car - hence all the money going into the Metro and better main line trains.

When we go to Cardiff, coming in on the A470 from the north, I simply park in the suburbs that side, either Whichurch or Rhiwbina, and catch the train or bus into the centre. Makes much more sense and is cheaper. Sometimes even stop further out, like Taffs Well or Radyr.
I do similar in other cities too!

 

[robert thomas]

I have never queued to park in Cardiff. Though I have seen people queue.

It would take a lot to make the train in the Swansea direction work better. West of Bridgend there are two trains around 10 minutes apart leaving Cardiff.

To get the speed for Port Talbot et al. into Cardiff it needs the stopping trains to move out of the way, but that is hard on a double-track line.

Then there are the prices.

IF they solve it by increasing parking prices in central Cardiff, it will only drive retail park visits (the West Cardiff retail park majorly clogs up the A48 junction already).

Cardiffs metro can do a lot, but it would be unwise to make driving in harder.

It costs more to park in central Cardiff for 3 hours than the train costs me for a return from Neath

 

[Topological]

It costs more to park in central Cardiff for 3 hours than the train costs me for a return from Neath

I must be doing something wrong.

Car parking in Cardiff for 3 hours is only £4.35. I never got a return train ticket for anything close to that.

By the time you account for petrol, insurance etc. it may get closer to the rail fare but then as soon as you put a second person in the car...

Either way, it would cost nothing to park at a retail park and Cardiff needs to balance that in promoting the metro to the city centre.

 

[robert thomas]

I must be doing something wrong.

Car parking in Cardiff for 3 hours is only £4.35. I never got a return train ticket for anything close to that.

By the time you account for petrol, insurance etc. it may get closer to the rail fare but then as soon as you put a second person in the car...

Either way, it would cost nothing to park at a retail park and Cardiff needs to balance that in promoting the metro to the city centre.

The last time I parked in central Cardiff it cost me £10.

 

[Signal_Box]

It’s great that Cardiff has a thriving retail centre, unlike, say, Bristol. Knowing some people who go from North Somerset by train to shop there, it may well be that the proximity to the retail centre of the rail stations is a major reason why it hasn’t suffered like some others.

Bristol suffers some of the problems Cardiff does, although a council who hate drivers doesn’t help in Bristol’s case.

Bristol is a present day warning of what Cardiff can become if we allow it to happen.

 

[The exile]

Bristol suffers some of the problems Cardiff does, although a council who hate drivers doesn’t help in Bristol’s case.

Bristol is a present day warning of what Cardiff can become if we allow it to happen.

Bristol suffers from the fact that it has no real “centre” - or rather it has several. The “shopping centre”, Broadmead /Cabot Circus, is separated from “The Centre” (Hippodrome, Old Vic, Watershed, Cathedral etc) by a rather daunting concrete jungle (unless you go via Corn St) and then.you have the University Centre as it were at the top of Park Street heading towards Clifton. Each is really a bit too far from the others to “feed” the others - particularly if the weather’s not good, which being in the West, it often isn’t.
Of course, then add in the fact that the railway scrupulously avoids all three…

 

[Envoy]

Cardiff also has the Bay with Mermaid Quay just a mile south of the Central station. I contend that Cardiff Bay is more attractive than Bristol’s old docks/harbour despite having the SS Great Britain. The next phase of the Metro will be to link the south side of Cardiff Central with Cardiff Bay via Callaghan Square and thus boost the attractiveness of Cardiff.

I note that Bristol plan to have a new Arena at Filton and that the new station on the Henbury line will only have 1 old diesel train an hour. Cardiff’s new arena will be near the present Bay station and be served by several electric Metro tram-trains per hour. The Wales Millennium Centre (concert hall/opera house) is also near to Cardiff Bay station.

 

[The exile]

Cardiff also has the Bay with Mermaid Quay just a mile south of the Central station. I contend that Cardiff Bay is more attractive than Bristol’s old docks/harbour despite having the SS Great Britain. The next phase of the Metro will be to link the south side of Cardiff Central with Cardiff Bay via Callaghan Square and thus boost the attractiveness of Cardiff.

I note that Bristol plan to have a new Arena at Filton and that the new station on the Henbury line will only have 1 old diesel train an hour. Cardiff’s new arena will be near the present Bay station and be served by several electric Metro tram-trains per hour. The Wales Millennium Centre (concert hall/opera house) is also near to Cardiff Bay station.

True - though the Bay is a recent addition whereas Bristol’s multi-centredness has existed for centuries - exacerbated when the Luftwaffe bombed the heart of the old city and planners did for the rest.

 

[Smwrff]

I assume that the new station at Penarth Road Pumping Station will include large P&R facilities - good location for Vale of Glamorgan commuters

 

[mrmartin]

What cardiff is really missing is a proper rail P+R from the M4. It's a shame this isn't really being provided any time soon. Either Cardiff Parkway or the J32 scheme seem completely stuck.

I don't think its reasonable to suggest everyone gets public transport door to door to cardiff but a (or couple) of good rail based P&R would be hugely helpful. I don't think bus P&R really are as attractive as they get really clogged up with the traffic, whereas a 10 min train every 15 mins is very predictable and reliable.

 

[anthony263]

Interesting points made Richard. They have been talking for years about having a station at Magor and STJ is not exactly easy to drive in and out of. The charging for parking at STJ on top of increased rail fare v going to Newport is doing nothing to entice people out of their cars and switch to rail to reach Cardiff.


Hopefully, when the new schedules come in, the spacing of trains west of Cardiff will be more even and long distance trains won’t have to stop at the smaller stations such as Pyle & Pontyclun.


Good point and interesting to know that people from N Somerset are travelling to Cardiff rather than Bristol. I guess that the hourly direct all stops trains have helped induce these people to go to Cardiff. You leave the central station and just walk a short distance and have a thriving city centre with modern malls and older arcades as well as the castle & museum all nearby plus restaurants - many with outside seating. This is far better than the rather soulless Cribb’s Causeway Mall.

Cardiff is really lucky in inheriting the local rail network from the age of coal & this links the valleys with the coast. Indeed, what is now the City Line was originally just used by coal trains and it was the former South Glamorgan County Council who helped fund the building of stations on this line in west Cardiff. Unfortunately, the Metro service on this line can’t be increased from that of half hourly due to constraints at Cardiff West junction (by Canton depot). They really do need to find the funding to get this sorted out so that maximum benefit can be derived from the Metro money already spent.

It seems to be that Bristol is being left behind as far as urban transport is concerned. Once the Metro is up and running in SE Wales, the difference will be massive.

Problem is swanline really should be hourly at least 0530-2330 with a lot of daytime services timed to run 20-25 minutes before/after the Maesteg to Ebbw Vale services between Bridgend and Cardiff it will bring a big boost to Pencoed, Pontyclun etc . The timetable proposed for dec2024 between Cardiff and Swansea in particular is a joke. Only.good thing is yje late stopping services between Cardiff abd Swansea.

Just need swanline to run hourly all day otherwise people like myself will drive to Tondu to get an hourly service

 

[Envoy]

What cardiff is really missing is a proper rail P+R from the M4. It's a shame this isn't really being provided any time soon. Either Cardiff Parkway or the J32 scheme seem completely stuck.

I don't think its reasonable to suggest everyone gets public transport door to door to cardiff but a (or couple) of good rail based P&R would be hugely helpful. I don't think bus P&R really are as attractive as they get really clogged up with the traffic, whereas a 10 min train every 15 mins is very predictable and reliable.

It all depends on where you are coming from and the frequency and availability of seats on trains at any P&R. My thinking is to favour P&R’s near to place of residence and then train to city centre. If the P&R’s are just around the the periphery of the city, then we would have the problem of roads jamming up approaching the city. For example, Eastern Avenue (A48) regularly jams up due to the massive flow of traffic. If people heading for the city centre could be persuaded to switch to trains nearer their start points, then that would surely be better? So, for people coming from the east, Severn Tunnel Junction P&R would be useful but few people use it due to difficult access, parking charges and hit train fares.

It remains to be seen how well patronised the new P&R at Pontypool & New Inn will be? I certainly hope that they are not also going to charge for parking as that will be a big disincentive to switch to the trains.

Much also depends on where new development takes place. For example, the new Grange Hospital at Cwmbran could have been built near to Pontypool & New Inn station rather than the present site well away from the railway. Much new housing has taken place on fields to the west of Cowbridge - a location with no rail access meaning more people using cars to reach Cardiff & elsewhere. Yet more housing going up on / near the A4050 Culverhouse Cross to Barry route in the Wenvoe area - again - no railway and increasing traffic on a very busy overloaded road whilst slowing down access to Cardiff Airport.

 

[Topological]

It all depends on where you are coming from and the frequency and availability of seats on trains at any P&R. My thinking is to favour P&R’s near to place of residence and then train to city centre. If the P&R’s are just around the the periphery of the city, then we would have the problem of roads jamming up approaching the city. For example, Eastern Avenue (A48) regularly jams up due to the massive flow of traffic. If people heading for the city centre could be persuaded to switch to trains nearer their start points, then that would surely be better? So, for people coming from the east, Severn Tunnel Junction P&R would be useful but few people use it due to difficult access, parking charges and hit train fares.

It remains to be seen how well patronised the new P&R at Pontypool & New Inn will be? I certainly hope that they are not also going to charge for parking as that will be a big disincentive to switch to the trains.

Much also depends on where new development takes place. For example, the new Grange Hospital at Cwmbran could have been built near to Pontypool & New Inn station rather than the present site well away from the railway. Much new housing has taken place on fields to the west of Cowbridge - a location with no rail access meaning more people using cars to reach Cardiff & elsewhere. Yet more housing going up on / near the A4050 Culverhouse Cross to Barry route in the Wenvoe area - again - no railway and increasing traffic on a very busy overloaded road whilst slowing down access to Cardiff Airport.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Pontypool and New Inn when the new car park opens. It is a shame that they could not get it open already, especially given it has been finished for a long time.

There are some questions about the service when it does open though. Given Abergavenny charges for parking, it would be tempting for people to switch to Pontypool instead. However, the service from Pontypool is limited. To work properly as a park and ride it would need more calls. I would stop all the trains there, but no doubt there is a good reason not to. It is not like the rest of the line is fast.

Cardiff needs the metro stops on the main line. As you say, the approach from the East by car is hard.

We are drifting towards speculative, but all of the mentioned stations and enhancements do appear in the plans.

 

[Envoy]

It will be interesting to see what happens with Pontypool and New Inn when the new car park opens. It is a shame that they could not get it open already, especially given it has been finished for a long time.

There are some questions about the service when it does open though. Given Abergavenny charges for parking, it would be tempting for people to switch to Pontypool instead. However, the service from Pontypool is limited. To work properly as a park and ride it would need more calls. I would stop all the trains there, but no doubt there is a good reason not to. It is not like the rest of the line is fast.

Cardiff needs the metro stops on the main line. As you say, the approach from the East by car is hard.

We are drifting towards speculative, but all of the mentioned stations and enhancements do appear in the plans.

Not speculative as enhancements such as the new P&R at Pontypool & New Inn are all part of the Metro scheme - which basically is about making travel across SE Wales easier. I think that they may have delayed the opening of the Pontypool & New Inn P&R because of the delays in getting all trains on the Manchester route up to 5 coaches? No good attracting new customers if a rammed 2 or 3 coach 197 turns up!

The Marches line is pretty fast with long stretches with a 90mph speed limit and services should soon be speeded up now that guaranteed 100mph rolling stock is available. What is clearly needed are limited stop long distance express services interlaced with stopping services. The southern section is the bit that must surely be most in need of additional stopping services? Perhaps a bay platform could be created at Abergavenny where it looks like one existed in days of old? Many people park for free in lay-bys on the A465 on the east side of Abergavenny station and I contend that a proper parking area should be built at this location - though I can’t see people being happy if they then wished to charge to use it.

A new station at Caerleon (just north of Newport) should also be built but that would surely depend upon additional stopping services being provided?

Anyway, we should not discuss the Marches line here north of Abergavenny as that is outside the topic area of this thread about the SE Wales Metro.

 

[I'm here now]

Why should anyone be forced to use public transport ? This a dictatorship where we do as we’re told for fear of punishment.

Again and again were told use public transport which is pitiful at best and dangerous at worst. Recents stats from BTP suggest a huge (Although context is everything) raise in assaults on females on public transport (well trains, and trams).

I’m sure much more unsafe business has been conducted in dingy car parks. Trains have CCTV at the very least. Seems a bit odd for a rail forum?

Minutes ? From a major trunk road like the M4 or A470 into the city centre parking areas…minutes yes about 20-30 if the traffic is bad.

The metro should improve that not a daft road scheme.

 

[davetheguard]

Again and again were told use public transport which is pitiful at best and dangerous at worst. Recents stats from BTP suggest a huge (Although context is everything) raise in assaults on females on public transport (well trains, and trams).

Just as well that some of us on here use it reguarly and are happy to do so.

Greener, much safer, less polluting, often faster, more relaxing, and usually cheaper for one person travelling alone.

Use trains and keep railwaymen and women (even petrol heads) in jobs!

 

[Mr. Angry]

A new station at Caerleon (just north of Newport) should also be built but that would surely depend upon additional stopping services being provided?

It's a no brainer. I went to there the other day and lorries were driving down its narrow historic street, it was polluted, loud and dangerous, on the continent it would be pedestrianised. Cwmbran is also underserved for its size and proximity to bigger cities.

 

[WesternBiker]

It's a no brainer. I went to there the other day and lorries were driving down its narrow historic street, it was polluted, loud and dangerous, on the continent it would be pedestrianised. Cwmbran is also underserved for its size and proximity to bigger cities.

Agree wholeheartedly - on all counts.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

It's a no brainer. I went to there the other day and lorries were driving down its narrow historic street, it was polluted, loud and dangerous, on the continent it would be pedestrianised. Cwmbran is also underserved for its size and proximity to bigger cities.

True on both counts. I've never understood why NR take so long to bring projects to fruition compared to the timescales of Welsh Government / TfW owned infrastructure. Sure, there has been slippage on the CVL electrification but nothing like the delays we saw with the GWML electrification project or schemes like Ely Mill station.

 

[Envoy]

True on both counts. I've never understood why NR take so long to bring projects to fruition compared to the timescales of Welsh Government / TfW owned infrastructure. Sure, there has been slippage on the CVL electrification but nothing like the delays we saw with the GWML electrification project or schemes like Ely Mill station.

The plan is for Ely Mill station to be on the City Line - which comes under the Welsh Government infrastructure. I suppose it relies on Network Rail building a new footbridge over the mainline ?

 

[MikePJ]

TfW have published a consultation on the draft Network Statement for 2026 - this is a legally-required annual statement that tells prospective train operators how they might use the Core Valley Lines. In practice, very little changes in it from year to year, but I did notice that in the introduction it mentions that "...new stations at Butetown and Crwys Road [are] due to be opened in 2025."

 

[slowroad]

It's a no brainer. I went to there the other day and lorries were driving down its narrow historic street, it was polluted, loud and dangerous, on the continent it would be pedestrianised. Cwmbran is also underserved for its size and proximity to bigger cities.

On the continent it would also be bypassed. No way to pedestrianise without that. And a station would make very little difference to traffic volume - in fact, a station might increase it by attracting travellers.

 

[John R]

On the continent it would also be bypassed. No way to pedestrianise without that. And a station would make very little difference to traffic volume - in fact, a station might increase it by attracting travellers.

It certainly won’t have an influence on the number of lorries using it.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Caerleon would have to be by-passed with a new road to solve the problem of lorries. That won't happen for the foreseeable future (if at all) as it doesn't lie on any main roads, being 'by-passed' in the 60's/70s by the A449.
I hope the Creigiau/Llantrisant/Beddau/Pontyclun project happens. Now there's an area that needs proper public transport.

 

[Signal_Box]

Caerleon would have to be by-passed with a new road to solve the problem of lorries. That won't happen for the foreseeable future (if at all) as it doesn't lie on any main roads, being 'by-passed' in the 60's/70s by the A449.
I hope the Creigiau/Llantrisant/Beddau/Pontyclun project happens. Now there's an area that needs proper public transport.

Isn’t there a commitment to new road building I wales ?

 

[Tumbleweed]

Not any more - unless the road is a 100% needed.

 

[Meerkat]

Caerleon would have to be by-passed with a new road to solve the problem of lorries. That won't happen for the foreseeable future (if at all) as it doesn't lie on any main roads, being 'by-passed' in the 60's/70s by the A449.
I hope the Creigiau/Llantrisant/Beddau/Pontyclun project happens. Now there's an area that needs proper public transport.

Surely it’s already bypassed. I assume the through traffic is rat running due to congestion caused by the ludicrous cancellation of the M4 south of Newport?
If lorries are the problem they might be able to get a lorry ban.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Surely it’s already bypassed. I assume the through traffic is rat running due to congestion caused by the ludicrous cancellation of the M4 south of Newport?
If lorries are the problem they might be able to get a lorry ban.

Yes, I said it was already bypassed, by the A449. Correct me if I'm wrong but the road between Newport - Usk - Raglan was the A449 originally? Anyway a station wouldn't help with the lorry situation as someone has already said. The biggest problem is that freight capacity and infrastructure on the railways has been virtually disamantled making road haulage the only option.
Ps I thought there was a weight limit through Caerleon?
Pps wasn't there a plan to open stations Caerleon, Sebastopol etc on that line, or has that vanished into the ether?