South West Trains: A confusing Brand?

[charlee]

Is there a obligation as to why South West Trains, is names after "south west". When its services dont actually serve anywhere in the "traditional" south west area apart from Exeter. To me the south west is Cornwall, Devon and Somerset. I know it does fliter into this area. But its main operations are in and around the Southampton and Hampshire areas. It is quite a confusing branding for a train company.

The Franchise is "South Western" thats a very odd name for it to me. Is a TOC obliged to name its train company after the name of the Franchise?

To me it doesnt serve the South West, and should be named something more appropraite. Maybe i am being picky on something not at all important, but its just a confusing brand.

 

[yorksrob]

In railway terms, it is the South Western division of the old Southern Region (formerly the London & South Western Railway) so the name is historically well rooted in the area

 

[Lrd]

Up until a few years ago SWT used to run to Plymouth and Paignton.

 

[TEW]

It's one of the three South-Eastern franchise, South Eastern, South Central and South Western. It's not so much a franchise that serves the South West but the Western South-Eastern franchise, I can see why the name is slightly misleading though.

 

[martinsh]

the name become more appropriate when you put the implied "London & " in front of it !

 

[Michael.Y]

No more confusing than finding "Great Western" trains in Brighton or the west Midlands mind, or Arriva Trains WALES services running throughout most of midwestern and northwestern England.

 

[Eagle]

To me the south west is Cornwall, Devon and Somerset.

And Dorset and Wiltshire, surely? SWT serves a lot of places there.

The official definition of the Southwest


Anyway, the name "South Western" to describe these routes has been used by every incarnation of the railway dating back to their original constructor, the London and South Western Railway. So you can blame them :P

 

[150222]

It's main area is South West London. Hence the naming. What do you suggest they name it? 'Solent Trains'?

 

[Eagle]

It's main area is South West London. Hence the naming. What do you suggest they name it? 'Solent Trains'?

I did once draw up a plan to split SWT into two franchises; the suburban routes as far as Reading, Woking and Guildford became the Surrey franchise, and the mainline and regional routes became the Solent franchise. (Then I realized that calling a train that ran from London to Exeter via Salisbury "Solent Railways" sounded a bit off.)

 

[Michael.Y]

Wessex Trains?

Oh wait....

 

[Eagle]

Wessex Trains?

Well, Network Rail do call the routes they run over the Wessex Sector, and most of the routes are within the old Kingdom of Wessex (which included Hampshire, Surrey and Berkshire but excluded Cornwall and much of Devon).

 

[transmanche]

Back in NSE days, I think the service sub-brands used were 'South Western Lines' (suburban), 'Solent & Wessex' (Portsmouth/Southampton/Weymouth) and 'West of England' (Salisbury/Exeter).

The shadow franchise used the 'SWT' logo, which became 'Stagecoach SWT' and eventually just 'South West Trains'.

 

[wibble]

The Franchise is "South Western" thats a very odd name for it to me. Is a TOC obliged to name its train company after the name of the Franchise?

No - when a company bids for a franchise, they set up a new company name which is kept, (assuming they win) for the life of the franchise.

London Eastern Railway Ltd has previously branded itself as 'one' and now 'National Express East Anglia'.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Also don't forget that SWT have a couple of services in and out of Bristol Temple Meads. So we have Devon and Somerset included in where they serve.
I do agree it is a tad confusing though, but as already mentioned its no different to other TOC's.

 

[tbtc]

Apart from the short lived Island Line franchise, there haven't been many franchise names which accurately describe every route in their geography.

Arriva Trains Wales run journeys that are wholly between English stations (e.g. Crewe - Chester, Shrewsbury - Crewe, the Sunday only Birmingham - Shrewsbury services).

There's nothing "Great Western" about Greenford in London, in the way that there's nothing "Northern" about Nottingham.

"South West" refers to the South West of England (which is more than three counties), the South West part of the Southern Region and the South West of London. I think it works pretty well as a name - any other description like Wessex wouldn't refer to the suburban/outer-suburban London services which form much of the franchise

 

[jopsuk]

Remember that under BR it was decided that "Network South East", the commuter sector for London and the South East, could include places most definitely not in the "South East" such as Weymouth, Exeter and Kings Lynn (the latter is north of Birmingham)

 

[tsr]

Apart from the short lived Island Line franchise, there haven't been many franchise names which accurately describe every route in their geography.

Southern? Southeastern? They're pretty good, as simple names that show pretty much where they serve. London Midland isn't too bad.

 

[tbtc]

Southern? Southeastern? They're pretty good, as simple names that show pretty much where they serve. London Midland isn't too bad.

Ah, but you can travel on Southern from Milton Keynes to Watford, they don't stick to south of the Thames. And London Midland from Liverpool to Runcorn...

I'm being pedantic, appreciated, but SWT is just as appropriate a name (for a franchise) as Southern and Southeastern/South Eastern are/were.

 

[LE Greys]

Well, the West Coast Main Line only goes near the west coast of anywhere for a few short sections around Lancaster, Carnforth and Kingmoor. Some of the route is smack through the middle of England, about as far from the sea as you can possibly get. But then West Anglia Great Northern was pretty much nonsense. "West" Anglia does not really exist unless you mean the West Country (Anglia means England), it's wasn't very "Great" and King's Lynn or Peterborough are certainly not "Northern".

The one I love is the Great North of Scotland Railway. Aberdeen to a few small places, none of which are anywhere near the most northerly point of Scotland, which the Highland Railway served.

 

[Schnellzug]

They cover most of the London & South Western Railway* and the South Western Division of the Southern Region, so there is an historical precedent.

* apart from west of Exeter, of course

 

[Eagle]

And what about Chiltern Railways serving stations in Worcestershire? (Or, back in the day, Thames Trains serving Warwickshire, or Wessex Trains serving West Glamorgan?)

 

[NSE]

Ah, but you can travel on Southern from Milton Keynes to Watford, they don't stick to south of the Thames. And London Midland from Liverpool to Runcorn...

I'm being pedantic, appreciated, but SWT is just as appropriate a name (for a franchise) as Southern and Southeastern/South Eastern are/were.

Well Milton Keynes isn't southern in relation to Southerns Franchise, but I think anything that used to be an NSE service could justifiably be labelled as a 'southern' route. Plus Southern services all cross the Thames to get to London Victoria

 

[jopsuk]

Well, the West Coast Main Line only goes near the west coast of anywhere for a few short sections around Lancaster, Carnforth and Kingmoor.

The ECML isn't much more coastal until you reach Newcastle- pretty sure that's the first time you can see a tideline on the route, and it dives back inland for a bit again north of that.

 

[Electrostar]

I think all shadow franchise names such as South West Trains and Network South Central are owned by the government (through what's left of British Rail) and franchisees are allowed to use them or rebrand. As has been pointed out Stagecoach adopted the SWT brand but prefixed it with Stagecoach. It was after coming under fire from the press for laying off too many drivers and cancelling services that the Stagecoach name was dropped - I guess through fear of damaging the bus brand. South West Trains has since come on leaps and bounds but Stagecoach has yet to return to the forefront of its branding.

 

[Eagle]

...but Stagecoach has yet to return to the forefront of its branding.

Other than painting its trains and buses in the same livery, of course.

 

[Schnellzug]

I think all shadow franchise names such as South West Trains and Network South Central are owned by the government (through what's left of British Rail) and franchisees are allowed to use them or rebrand. As has been pointed out Stagecoach adopted the SWT brand but prefixed it with Stagecoach. It was after coming under fire from the press for laying off too many drivers and cancelling services that the Stagecoach name was dropped - I guess through fear of damaging the bus brand. South West Trains has since come on leaps and bounds but Stagecoach has yet to return to the forefront of its branding.

paradoxically, I think Arriva decided not to make any mention of Arriva when they got CrossCountry was so that (and I think this was their own words) "people wouldn't associate it with a shoddy downmarket bus service".

:-/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Other than painting its trains and buses in the same livery, of course.

well, suburban trains and the 450s aren't really in anything like the Bus livery, apart from the use of orange.

 

[TomJ93]

Why hasn't anybody mentioned the Slappers you see on virgin trains?

 

[Schnellzug]

there were all sorts of jokes about Virgin Trains not going all the way..

 

[The Colonel]

To the Editor,
Rail UK Forum

Dear Sir,

It is an entirely logical and very fitting name, both commercially and historically.

In reverse chronological order we have
the South Western Division of the Southern Region of British Railways
the Western Section of the Southern Railway
the London & South Western Railway
and its initial name
the London & Southampton Railway.

I think everyone has views of what is the south, south east, the midlands and the north, etc. To me the west is Devon & Cornwall, best left to that railway with the wider gauge and an even wider ego.

The current SWT serves south west London and the south west, along with the former LSWR lines to Windsor & Reading. The south coast is Sussex & Kent, and Hampshire & Dorset is the south west, to me anyway.

To many generations of railwaymen & enthusiasts it will always be the South Western, and long may it remain so.

I think Charlee of Pkymouth you're in a minority of one on this.

Yours faithfully,

Disgusted of Datchet (L&SWR)
definitely not of Tunbridge Wells as that is South Eastern & Chatham territory.

 

[yorksrob]

Disgusted of Datchet (L&SWR)
definitely not of Tunbridge Wells as that is South Eastern & Chatham territory.

Or London, Brighton & South Coast Territory depending on your preference