South West Trains Cycle Policy

[LucaZone]

:-xCycling to work has got to be one of the most environmentally friendly methods possible, and saves a fortune in travel costs. In this 'Green' crazy world we now live you'd think companies would be falling over themselves to be seen promoting support for environmentally friendly customers and products, yet SouthWest Trains appear to be going in the opposite direction.

I've been cycling to work for about 18 months now, and slowly over that time, the services I'm allowed to take a bike on, has been getting less and less and less. I mean, for a train operator whose rolling stock has been designed from the outset to carry a lot of bikes (half a dozen on most trains is a lot to me), it is bemusing that they are trying their hardest to stop you bringing a bike on the train!

I travel from Brookwood to Woking, and then Woking to Guildford.

Checking this morning, I have now discovered that the latest policy is that no bikes are allowed on trains arriving at Waterloo between 7.15 and 10.00. Arriving at 7.15am! When I started cycling and using the train, I was able to get on trains as late as 7.23 (arriving Waterloo at 7.59) as the policy was 'Arriving between 8 and 10am. Now though, in order to 'legally' be outside the 7.15 and 10 zone, Id have to be on a train before 6am, 3 hours before anyone normally needs to be at work! Using the train, my journey only takes 30 minutes (from boarding at Brookwood, to arriving at the office in Guildford), but I think its ridiculous to force me to arrive at work for 6:30 in the morning, just so I can cycle to work.

Now I understand the point of restricting bikes, as the trains become busy, but what gets me is that 450 and 444 units are designed to carry bikes (and wheel chairs), and SWT appears to be preventing us using these facilities at the most useful times of the day. Id even be prepared to agree that on 450's the bikes share space with folding seats, which can be used on heavily loaded trains. Yet on 444 units, the bike racks are specific and having no seating at all, so these spaces stand empty! How stupid.

The farce continues with the journey home. If I finish at 5pm, according to the SWT policy, im not allowed on a train with my bike for almost 3 hours, because restrictions apply on all services leaving Waterloo up to 7pm. With a 40minute journey time to Woking, thats at least 7.40 before I can 'legally' board.

This therefore has results in the simple situation where these restrictions are plainly ignored. The policy is so restrictive, that cyclist are now just boarding anyway.


Does anyone have any details on experiences with other operators, or is SWTs the worst offender of this?

Cheers for reading.

 

[jopsuk]

"Coincidentally" (yeah right) SWT have started a cycle hire scheme, hiring out Bromptons, based at Waterloo. Surprisingly good value- think it is something like £100/year for an annual season ticket holder to join- a bottom of the range Brompton is about £600 to buy.

Maybe they're trying to push you into using that service, to increase their revenue?

 

[455/8]

I know by saying this I will no doubt be hatedrst trains of the day and finishing on the last ones by cyclists for the rest of my working days but the policy is there for safety reasons, say that the policy was removed you would then have thousands of people trying to get on a 10/12 car train most if not all with bikes when the train is only able to take 6, now I'm all for savng the enviroment and cyclng to work but you must admit bikes do take up a lt of space on a train and the majority of people that board with a bike don't get on the train in the right coach where bikes are suppsed to go and if there was a need for a Driver or Guard to walk through the train in an emergency and there were bikes in the door ways or where they aren't meant to be it's really unsafe.

SWT has an agreement that fold away bikes are allowed on during the restrictions as long as the bike is folded down, which again belive it or not a lot of people are reluctant to do and I have asked peoe to leave my train before because of this, I know it sounds strict but if they borax my train with a fold away bike during the restriction and do t fold it away and they are allowed to travel and someone else on the train that has a normal bike sees that they have been allowed travel then they may try to travel next time with their bike causing
problems. On the flip side of that argument normally if you speak to the guard on the train you will be allowed to travel with a bike IF the train is empty or quiet during the restriction.

Alan

 

[stut]

I gave up on this years ago, and found the best way was to get a solid, low maintenance, inconspicuous bike (70s or 80s steel framed 3-speeds are great for this) and keep it in London. Yeah, it's not your nice shiny new bike, and there should be double the number of racks, but it makes my life much easier. And I have a thing for vintage bikes anyway, and this is halfway there...

 

[LucaZone]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the response, it is appreciated to hear from the company side.

Sadly I find it some what of a joke that the 'Safety first' card is being played. These trains are designed to carry bikes, so how anyone can claim its a safety problem to have the bikes on the train is just ludicrous. Equally it is nonsensical to suggest 'bikes take up a lot of room' when these trains have specific bike racks!

In response to suggestions that bikes should rightly only be allowed in the bike areas, I have to say that I have one experience of being ousted from a wheel chair section in an empty coach, and forced to stand in the bike section, which was already filled with 3 prames and accompanying families. This resulted in my bike causing obstruction, as there was no where for me to stand except in the doorway. If safety was key, I should clearly have been left in the empty coach where I posed no issue to anyone. If the guard then turned to me and suggested I could not board the service because the bike section was already full, Id have not very politely told him to remove everyone from the bike section and have them moved to any of the other 3 coaches per 4car section.

I disagree that allowing bikes is going to cause a tidal wave effect. However, even if it did, then clearly the train staff would need to exercise 'sorry this train is full' just like they do with announcements that incoming trains are full and standing, for the general public.

Finally, on the note that speaking quietly to the Guard/Driver about getting on restricted services, again I must disagree. I have done just this and on all but one occasion I have found that making yourself known to staff only makes it worse. I was thus advised by staff at Woking station that if they "don't notice it, they wont do anything about it"...

Hence why we end up resorting to ignoring the restrictions if we can get away with it.

 

[Capybara]

The policy does seem a bit rigid. For example, the Weybridge to Waterloo via Staines service is covered by the restriction in its entirety, even though there is usually plenty of room in the morning peak on the first part of the journey which is actually travelling and carrying passengers away from London. So it is good to see that common sense can be applied by guards which it usually is on that route. However I have lost count of the number of times someone has got on with a bike and travelled just the one stop. Why not just cycle it? Which prompts the question, though it is none of my business, why don’t you just cycle from Brookwood to Guildford as it isn’t that far.

 

[LucaZone]

Good question. Simply answer is I'm not fit enough yet

Though I do enjoy travelling by train, and by my calculations its only costing me 10p a minute to use the train.

 

[jon0844]

Bikes, buggies and wheelchairs are all going to be 'safety' issues. If you suddenly had loads of wheelchairs turn up, I wouldn't want to be the one to turn some away (imagine the press outrage) but these things do block escape routes. Of course, you don't get many wheelchairs - but you do get a lot of bikes. It's not health and safety gone mad. It's just that people don't seem to care about safety on buses and trains, whereas nobody would EVER expect such things on a plane. What's the difference?

When an area is reserved for wheelchairs, then bikes, then anyone there with a buggy or pram should realise that they have to fold them up and make way for you. See the separate thread on this! Good luck asking them to move though.

If there's a bike area, and no wheelchair(s) there, then I can't see why you couldn't use it during the peak period. However, it's a gamble. Take your bike anywhere else and you're now blocking exits and probably hindering people from boarding and alighting.

I'd opt for the folder every time. It isn't about 'giving in' but merely making my own life easier, as well as avoiding problems.

FCC has recently issued new guidelines on its policy, along with clear posters (including photo examples) to detail the restrictions. People do still take bikes during the restricted times though, and it does still cause problems for people getting on and off.

What we need are more areas reserved for bikes. No TOC will want to lose revenue from lost seats, so the Government should be thinking green and subsidising public transport to create areas (even if it means an extra coach added on to some trains) for bikes, and no doubt prams that don't have to be folded. When not used, this would become more standing room too.

Possibly good for shorter commutes, but no doubt would prove very unpopular for long-distance travel. That's why you'd need to ADD the space, not take away existing space. That way people can't complain about what they never had in the first place.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the response, it is appreciated to hear from the company side.

Sadly I find it some what of a joke that the 'Safety first' card is being played. These trains are designed to carry bikes, so how anyone can claim its a safety problem to have the bikes on the train is just ludicrous. Equally it is nonsensical to suggest 'bikes take up a lot of room' when these trains have specific bike racks!

The problem is not just on the trains. They don't want people wheeling bikes around the platforms at busy stations either.

These are not new rules though, as you suggest in your first post. I still have the 2007 timetable book, which already had 0715 as the arrival time. Also, your interpretation of the rules as a blanket ban is mistaken - longer distance services into Waterloo do allow bikes during the peak - if you look at the timetables, the barred stations are shown in red and don't include Waterloo. So it seems you can do Southampton to Waterloo, but not Woking to Waterloo on the same train...

 

[jon0844]

Not everyone will just wheel bikes around stations; some will ride them.

Sadly, these people don't do any favours for the majority of cyclists.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I disagree that allowing bikes is going to cause a tidal wave effect. However, even if it did, then clearly the train staff would need to exercise 'sorry this train is full' just like they do with announcements that incoming trains are full and standing, for the general public.

But then from personal experience, some cyclists (certainly not all) get sh**ty about this. I would imagine there are restrictions during peak times because a number of cyclists often take forever to board, thinking we have all day and will wait for them... and when we don't get sh**ty about it again. I'm certainly not saying all cyclists are like this, they're not, I cycle to work myself so i'd be a hypocrite if I said they were, it's the minority spoiling it for everyone else in my opinion.

Then you get the idiots who cycle down the platform at full pelt... it's not safe to do so, and when told not too some can think they are clever in continuing.

 

[jon0844]

We do now live in a 'what are you going to do about it?' society it seems. Rules are nothing without enforcement, and people don't enforce for fear of being accused of 'having nothing better to do'.

It's a crazy situation. Cyclists have every right to moan about the restrictions, but they can't just ignore them. Set up a pressure group and seek change (and that doesn't mean being lazy and just creating a Facebook group!!).

 

[Geezertronic]

I see a guy who regularly brings his fold up bike on the 1823 VT EUS-WVH service and gets off at Coventry. His bike folds up that much it fits in the luggage area at the beginning of Coach A on a Pendolino

 

[455/8]

The cycle policy is a real pain for all rail staff and I must agree the "Safety card" if you will is played a lot by railway staff but before the 455s were refurbished and before the Desiros were running on the network, we had the lovely slammers which had no designated cycle space there was a lugage compartment in the brake van just behind the Guards office that could be used but offically not for cycles. When the 455s were refurbished the 458s & Desiros leased swt decided to have an area built in to the trains so that they could be accomidaded during certain times of the day but people take it too far leaning bikes against doors so that when the train pulls into a station with the doors on the other side of the train from where they joined they are causing an obstruction to other passengers trying to leave/board the train which is unfair for the other passengers. I do admit swt doesn't make it easy for passenger with bikes as the cycle storage area is in a different place on most types of stock, the 455s its at the ends of each 4 car set (near the cab ends), 458s is in one of the middle coaches like a 450 and a 444 its in the middle coach and as for the 158/9s swt policy for cycles on them is if you haven't prebooked then you will be refused from boarding due to the size of the doors catering trollies etc. so for passengers joining between waterloo and woking its very difficult even off peak hours.

as for cycling on platforms most people don't seem to care about their own safety let alone anyone elses that has a bike as they will get off the train and cycle down the platform now from my experiences i have told people not to do it because i know of places where cylists have fallen off their bikes onto the track and been hit by a train or hit someone else walking for the train (please forgive me if you do cycle and use the trains but 9 out of 10 cyclists on my trains do this so its why i have written it in such a way). As for me as a Guard i know my trains well as in stopping patterns, passenger numbers etc etc. So if i pulled into a station during the restriction saw someone getting on with a bike I will tell them about the restriction and findout where they are wishing to travel to and based on their answer and my understanding of the route, traction and train concerned i would decide if they would be able to travel because some of the trains i work during the peak get very packed, if this was such a train i would tell the passenger that they cannot board if they were wishing to get off between the point where it gets busywhich for me is common sense but for most they would just refuse or ignore it until someone complains (unfortunatly such is the way of some train crew).

As I said above the west of england services (158/9s) that swt opperates you have to book in advance if you wish to board with a bike as its not always practical on many services and it was the same with the 442s when they were opperated by swt, in an ideal world it would be ideal to have one coach in a formation specifically for bikes and large bages etc mostly the 158/9s, 444s, 450s and 458s as for the 455s as they are mostly a station every 2 minutes and are designed to get as many people on as possible plus its not practical for this type of storage system unlike the longer journeys the other stock compete but my thoughts don't reflect the ones of the company, they are more concerned about seating than storage and we have to work to that I'm affraid so i can't see it happening unless every person that travels with a bike or large bages etc complain to swt then they may change their minds i doubt it very much but hey anythings worth a shot right?

I don't mean to sound rude to any one i just trying to explain the situation from a staff point of view so if i have offended anyone i am sorry for that i didn't mean to.

Alan

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

So you travel from Brookwood to Guildford and want to avoid the cycle restrictions?

Simple travel via Ash Vale, catch the Alton train to Aldershot & remain on the same platform, the Guildford train follows it in. Then in the evening travel in the reverse and yes the connections work in the same way, except you cross platforms at Aldershot; You can travel at anytime between Guildford & Aldershot with a bike and as you will be going against the flow each time the restrictions don't apply.

Now if a "honorary" carrot cruncher like me down here in Somerset can work out this information via NRE & SWT websites, why can't you? :roll:

 

[455driver]

except you cross platforms at Aldershot

Across platform change, from 2 to 3, you dont need to use the subway to platform 1 and the exit.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

From Brookwood to Guildford via Ash Vale:

Depart Platform 2 Brookwood - Arrive Platform 2/3 Aldershot.
Depart Platform 2/3 Aldershot - Arrive Platform 6/7 or 8 Guildford

From Guildford to Brookwood via Ash Vale:

Depart Platform 6/7 or 8 - Guildford - Arrive Platform 2/3 Aldershot (Cross to Platform 1)
Depart Platform 1 Aldershot - Arrive Platform 1 Brookwood.

It takes nearly 50 minutes, but you have to put up with that if you want to avoid the restrictions.

It is either that or buy a folding bike or you could buy a pair of bikes and leave one at each end of the journey, that way you are completely unaffected by the restrictions and you can go via Woking.

 

[yorkie]

Now if a "honorary" carrot cruncher like me down here in Somerset can work out this information via NRE & SWT websites, why can't you? :roll:

I don't think that's fair, after all this forum is a great place to find advice, after giving good advice (which I'm sure the OP will be grateful for) it does spoil it a bit to say something like that. Not everyone can figure out the complexities of rail travel easily.

 

[LucaZone]

Hiya,

Thanks for pointing the alternative route out. I was aware, but it had completely slipped my mind, sorry. For my personal circumstances, that may well be the alternative if I want to avoid the restriction.

Accept restriction and use fastest route.
Avoid restriction and accept slightly longer journey time.

Regards

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Sorry if I came across a bit short earlier, I was having a bit of a grotty day!

 

[Death]

Thanks for pointing the alternative route out. I was aware, but it had completely slipped my mind, sorry. For my personal circumstances, that may well be the alternative if I want to avoid the restriction.

• Accept restriction and use fastest route.
• Avoid restriction and accept slightly longer journey time.

I know it wouldn't really be an option for rainy and snowy days LucaZone...But have ye given thought to doing your whole journey by bicycle insted?

Brookwood, Woking (Or Aldershot) and Guildford can all be seen as points on a triangle, and your rail journey means travelling along two sides of said triangle. If ye went by bike via the Bagshot Road, ye'd be travelling along only one side of the triangle - Thus covering only half the distance getting to and from work!

The other benefits of course are obvious: Regular exercise, plenty of fresh air, possibly shorter journey time, no (peak) fares to pay, no travel restrictions, and no need to face that accursed morning crush trying to get through the gate-line at Guildford station!

Also: I'd guess that someone might've already looked this up (Sorry if they have!) but is Aldershot a definite valid routeing point for a Necropolis -> Guildford journey? I'm guessing that Via Woking might be the only valid route under the fare-check rule...But I could be wrong, of course.

With regard to restrictions on the carriage of bikes: Would my (Mountain) bike be classed as a "folding bike" or "luggage" for those purposes if it was dissected to a certain degree before boarding - I.E: Wheels and saddle seperated from the frame?

 

[jopsuk]

If your bike was disassembled and in a carry bad, then I'd have thought it should then be treated as "normal" luggage, and subject to the restrictions in place.

Not sure how far Lucazone cycles at either end, but between the stations is about seven miles by the awesome Cyclestreets journey planner- I cycle ten miles, which is definitely into "arrive early, have a shower at work" territory.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I know it wouldn't really be an option for rainy and snowy days LucaZone...But have ye given thought to doing your whole journey by bicycle insted?

Brookwood, Woking (Or Aldershot) and Guildford can all be seen as points on a triangle, and your rail journey means travelling along two sides of said triangle. If ye went by bike via the Bagshot Road, ye'd be travelling along only one side of the triangle - Thus covering only half the distance getting to and from work!

The other benefits of course are obvious: Regular exercise, plenty of fresh air, possibly shorter journey time, no (peak) fares to pay, no travel restrictions, and no need to face that accursed morning crush trying to get through the gate-line at Guildford station!

Also: I'd guess that someone might've already looked this up (Sorry if they have!) but is Aldershot a definite valid routeing point for a Necropolis -> Guildford journey? I'm guessing that Via Woking might be the only valid route under the fare-check rule...But I could be wrong, of course.

With regard to restrictions on the carriage of bikes: Would my (Mountain) bike be classed as a "folding bike" or "luggage" for those purposes if it was dissected to a certain degree before boarding - I.E: Wheels and saddle seperated from the frame?

I think you might be able to get away with it if you had a wheel bag or rubble sack.

When I was in London last month, I watched a cyclist get around the ban on bikes on the Tramlink, by doing exactly what you said. He undid the front & rear wheels, popped them in a rubble sack and then carried them & the frame onto the tram as "luggage". A smart cookie!

 

[jon0844]

Surely there must be some fairly decent folders even for people doing slightly longer rides, rather than having to dismantle a proper bike and hide it in a bin bag.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Does anyone have any details on experiences with other operators, or is SWTs the worst offender of this?

You might wish you hadn't asked !

I spent about 15 minutes on the phone today enquiring about FCC's bike policy.
Its explained here, with a map splitting their routes into 4 "zones"
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/content/doc/cms/cycle_map.pdf
Its a little confusing because the restrictions applying to Zone B appear under the description of Zone A, but after that, it seems logical.
But then I realised the ambiguity of those Zone A restrictions where they combine with Zone B:
"Cycles not permitted on trains leaving from stations in this zone which arrive at stations in Zone B on Mondays to Fridays between the following times:
Great Northern route: 0700 and 0930 Thameslink Route: 0700 to 1000
AND
Cycles not permitted on trains which depart stations in Zone B on Mondays
to Fridays between 1600 and 1900 and which arrive at any station in this zone"

Its not clear whether these restrictions to the start of the journey apply :-
a) to trains (which is what it says) which leave Zone A stations to reach Zone B between these busy times (so the passenger could board in Zone B just after these times but be excluded from taking bike - even board in a Zone A station after its passed through London and still be excluded), or,
b) to a passenger's journey which begins at a Zone A stations to reach Zone B between these busy times (so wouldn't prevent a passenger boarding it at any Zone B station during the peak for a journey through the City).

Its also not clear whether the restriction to the end of the journey is intended to apply:-
a) to trains which arrive in Zone B between these times (even if the passenger is travelling further), or
b) to a passenger's journey ending in Zone B (and so doesn't restrict a journey through Zone B to a destination in Zone A), and
c) to a journey which begins and ends in Zone B (in peak hour, in the City, these could be amongs the busiest stops but don't appear to be restricted).

The person I spoke to was very willing to unravel this and took advice from one colleague and later from a supervisor.

At first, they interpreted these restrictions as applying to the trains as specified. So a journey starting in Zone B (City of London) at 9:00 and travelling out to Zone A or beyond would be prohibited with a bike.
Eventually, they decided that what the restrictions are trying to do is restrict bikes on the busy morning flows INTO London (and the reverse at night), so travelling From the City, even when busy at 9am, would be okay with bike because the journey is against the commuter flow. (I don't expect that this would be the case on, say, London Bridge to St Albans or St Pancras to Brighton but that was the decision).
Whether the same interpretation is applied on the stations is another matter !

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

The restrictions have been in for quite a while, I think they changed in 2002/3, roughly when the Desiro stock was introduced.

Still I've just been to the SWT website and dug this up.

Cycles cannot be carried on any service bounded by Waterloo and Hook, Alton, Guildford, Reading and Dorking at the following times:

Trains arriving into Waterloo from 0715 to 1000 inclusive

Leaving Waterloo from 1645 to 1900 inclusive

In addition, they cannot be carried on any service bounded by Clapham Junction and Feltham and Strawberry Hill (via Richmond) from 0745 to 0900.

If you are travelling on our Waterloo to Salisbury/Exeter/Bristol services you will need a cycle reservation as space for is very limited. You can reserve a cycle space at any staffed station or through our Customer Service Centre at least 24 hours in advance of travel.

So as long as you go against the flow, disassemble the bike, fold the bike you are OK. In theory you can be blocked from travel if you go with the flow, so that's the risk you take.

I did look at the price of a Brompton & nearly fell off my chair in shock, however there is a cheaper alternative made by Dawes.

http://www.dawescycles.com/c-76-folding-bikes.aspx

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So as long as you go against the flow, disassemble the bike, fold the bike you are OK. In theory you can be blocked from travel if you go with the flow, so that's the risk you take.

Hmm, fair enough for services terminating in London (or any other busy centre), and its simple to understand.
But the point I was trying to get at with FCC is how that simple concept is applied to services which pass right through the city.
In their case, the rule will change as the flow changes from "with" to "against" the busy flow - and the difficulty in applying those rules to journeys that begin within the centre.

BTW I don't fold or disassemble my bike! And have no intention of buying another.