Southeastern Bylaws report

[Elecman]

In the real world, adults do not habitually leave home to travel somewhere without a bank card.

I mange to quite regularly and then only have the £10 note stashed in my phone case

 

[AlbertBeale]

In the real world, adults do not habitually leave home to travel somewhere without a bank card.

Demonstrably untrue, given the number of people in this country who don't have any plastic payment methods at all. And some of us who do have a credit card don't always carry it around.

 

[Dai Corner]

Demonstrably untrue, given the number of people in this country who don't have any plastic payment methods at all. And some of us who do have a credit card don't always carry it around.

How many of them are there? It must be quite difficult to get an income without a bank account or a bank account without a card. Even my window cleaner prefers direct debits now.

 

[2192]

If the machine had run out of change, that would be a valid reason for refusing the £20 note. It might have accepted exact money.

 

[WesternLancer]

How many of them are there? It must be quite difficult to get an income without a bank account or a bank account without a card. Even my window cleaner prefers direct debits now.

1.3 million in 2019 according to this parliamentary report

Consumers’ access to financial services - Treasury Committee - House of Commons

publications.parliament.uk

and on top of that you have to add the number who might have access to plastic or non cash payment but just don't have it on them on the day.

so hardly any really....

 

[ComUtoR]

so hardly any really....

How many of those 1.3m get the train ?

The report you quoted also goes on to say that we should be doing everything we can to help these 1.3m people get bank accounts and to do what we can to move people into digital banking.

 

[WesternLancer]

How many of those 1.3m get the train ?

Any of them that need to get to a town with a bank branch to open an account because the banks have closed all the branches in their immediate neighbourhood, and where bus services have been withdrawn (or as in where I live, no longer give change for cash bus ticket purchases)

But who knows the exact number? But hey, lets assume none do and make it difficult for them - whilst taking their taxes to help fund the railway services others can use.

The report you quoted also goes on to say that we should be doing everything we can to help these 1.3m people get bank accounts and to do what we can to move people into digital banking.

Indeed it does, which would be a good thing, and the number will probably have reduced since 2019 too. Does the report suggest that in any circumstances where someone gets on a train without a non cash way of paying for a ticket they should be referred for prosecution as an incentive to achieve that objective?

 

[jumble]

In the real world, adults do not habitually leave home to travel somewhere without a bank card.

I guess you have not got teenagers who say
" Dad I have run out of money till payday Could you lend me £20.00 so I can go and see my boyfriend/girlfriend. I will pay it back next week"
In the "real world" this has happened to me with my offspring

 

[1955LR]

Surely if paying cash is a valid method of payment according to National Conditions of travel, it is my choice not the TOC as to which I chose. If the TOC for any reason will/ cannot accept cash it is their problem not mine and I should not be penalised.

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely if paying cash is a valid method of payment according to National Conditions of travel, it is my choice not the TOC as to which I chose. If the TOC for any reason will/ cannot accept cash it is their problem not mine and I should not be penalised.

Okay, but if you pass a working machine, your note or cash is not accepted, and you have an alternative method of payment, the question is whether you have a good defence against Bylaw 18.

 

[WesternLancer]

Okay, but if you pass a working machine, your note or cash is not accepted, and you have an alternative method of payment, the question is whether you have a good defence against Bylaw 18.

Yes. I suspect you would not - but that is a hunch. Would be interesting to see a court case that could be considered a test case on this matter.

 

[island]

Okay, but if you pass a working machine, your note or cash is not accepted, and you have an alternative method of payment, the question is whether you have a good defence against Bylaw 18.

I am of the view that you do not. But only a court can decide this conclusively.

 

[pedr]

I doubt there’s any precedent on the meaning of “facilities in working order”, since that would take at the least an appeal to the High Court to get a generally available/published judgment on that point. So it’ll be down to the magistrates (and legal advisor). It’s entirely plausible within English law for it to be an offence even if there was no practical way to get a ticket in the circumstances - the fact that the TOC might be in breach of its obligation under contract or consumer law, or its obligations to its regulator, doesn’t automatically mean the bylaws must be interpreted to include “using the desired payment method” (or, in fact, “ticket of the type and detail that the passenger wanted”). On the other hand it might be unwise for TOCs to bring prosecutions in these circumstances, without introducing methods, like promise to pay or permit to travel, to cover situations where their machines are operating but not able/designed to offer all payment methods and all tickets.

It would be unfortunate but there would be nothing inherently wrong with the criminal law leading to the situation where someone doesn’t have a lawful/non-criminal way to travel (they would therefore have cause to complain to the TOC but no automatic defence should they travel and the TOC prosecuted them.) But it shows that the bylaws are not actually appropriate for the current ticketing and payment circumstances.

 

[furlong]

the fact that the TOC might be in breach of its obligation under contract or consumer law, or its obligations to its regulator, doesn’t automatically mean the bylaws must be interpreted to include “using the desired payment method” (or, in fact, “ticket of the type and detail that the passenger wanted”).

But this is where 'abuse of process' or a discharge may come into play e.g. had the prosecuting company adhered to its own obligations there would have been no offence - it is attempting to criminalise another party due to its own failings.

 

[FenMan]

Okay, but if you pass a working machine, your note or cash is not accepted, and you have an alternative method of payment, the question is whether you have a good defence against Bylaw 18.

A barrister acquaintance of mine always waltzed onto the trains at Blackwater, which has card-only TVMs, without buying a ticket.

He knew very well that his choice of how to pay for his ticket- cash - is an approved means of payment for a train journey and, being an awkward sort (as I suppose most barristers are), he enjoyed the notion of pushing back on the railway's t&cs.

But he was never challenged as far as I know.
Which I do know would have disappointed him. He'd have taken on any fight with great enthusiasm.

 

[island]

A barrister acquaintance of mine always waltzed onto the trains at Blackwater, which has card-only TVMs, without buying a ticket.

He knew very well that his choice of how to pay for his ticket- cash - is an approved means of payment for a train journey and, being an awkward sort (as I suppose most barristers are), he enjoyed the notion of pushing back on the railway's t&cs.

But he was never challenged as far as I know.
Which I do know would have disappointed him. He'd have taken on any fight with great enthusiasm.

That sounds very like travelling on a train without having previously paid his fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof.

 

[FenMan]

That sounds very like travelling on a train without having previously paid his fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof.

He had every intention of paying his fare, using his chosen method of payment. His journeys were to gated stations and he was, ahem, having dfficulties in his personal life and didn't want to leave traces.

 

[island]

I stand by what I said.

 

[WesternLancer]

He had every intention of paying his fare, using his chosen method of payment. His journeys were to gated stations and he was, ahem, having dfficulties in his personal life and didn't want to leave traces.

out of interest how did he exit the gated stations? Pay at excess fare window with cash?

If he wanted to test the railway on this maybe he should have tried a trip to Leeds and used the excess window...

 

[FenMan]

out of interest how did he exit the gated stations? Pay at excess fare window with cash?

If he wanted to test the railway on this maybe he should have tried a trip to Leeds and used the excess window...

Very likely paid the guard en route.

 

[Tallguy]

In the real world, adults do not habitually leave home to travel somewhere without a bank card.

I frequently leave home with just cash in my pocket and no cards. I often leave my mobile phone at home as well. The settlement offered by the TOC is outrageous. And wouldn’t have happened had the ticket office been manned which it should have been.