Southeastern, HS1, New Deal Railcards and Tickets

[atomicdanny]

I have a new deal railcard, since I'm currently unemployed (not something that I'm proud of - but I'm not one of those cheating types though)

I bought a ticket (Saturday Morning) from the conductor on the train at Aylesham, (an off peak return) to Arlesey. I asked the conductor for the HS1 ticket to which he replied it was an "any permitted" ticket therefore was valid. I then went to canterbury east walked to the west station to catch the South Eastern Class 395 from there. (since it is a valid route!)

The train got to ashford where the conductor checked my ticket and then told me that the ticket was not valid and that I had to pay for a new one because the new deal card wasn't valid, I tried to explain to him what I was told by the first conductor and he wouldn't have any of it! and I had to pay an extra £45 for another ticket. (basically I feel that I was punished for something for doing something I was told was valid!)

When I originally recieved the new deal card a week ago it doesn't even mention that it isn't valid on HS1, only not valid on advance fares, eurostar, scotrail but doesn't even mention south eastern let alone HS1.

I know that some of you may see me as a fare dodger, but trust me I've always paid for every single ticket and have always checked first the routes but in this case I asked the conductor on the train that I purchased the ticket from!)

but was I right in that since i was given bad advice from the first conductor in that it wasn't fair to be charged for another ticket or am i in the wrong for going on the wrong route (without knowing )

 

[jd]

So write to Southeastern!

Tell them what you've told us. If you ask for a ticket to be valid on HS1, and are told that the ticket you're being sold is valid on HS1, then you're entitled to expect that your ticket *is* valid on HS1 - you're just following the advice of somebody who you assume to know about these things.

 

[notadriver]

According to the south eastern website new deal cards are not valid on HS1 services. Unfortunately conductors on classic lines were not given the same training on ticket validity that the On Board Managers were given.

 

[466.networkers]

I've just had a look on NRES and it does seem the New Deal Photocard isn't valid on HS1.

 

[atomicdanny]

Thank you for all of your help , I've sent an email to south eastern about it hopefully they will reply! I only wrote on here to see if I was correct about the new deal railcard and hs1 because I was given two different views about it! Although its worrying though that this isn't even mentioned on the what you can't use the railcard on which means a few people will be caught out by this!

 

[jd]

I only wrote on here to see if I was correct about the new deal railcard and hs1 because I was given two different views about it! Although its worrying though that this isn't even mentioned on the what you can't use the railcard on which means a few people will be caught out by this!

The thing is, it shouldn't really matter what is right and wrong - if you relied on the information given on the first train, and that turned out to be wrong, you've been wronged. If the information given was right and the guard on HS1 was wrong, you've still been wronged. Either way Southeastern need to give you a refund of some sort.

 

[466.networkers]

I've just found this on the Southeastern website:

"Tickets purchased with a New Deal Card are not valid for travel on high speed services (even if an upgrade ticket is purchased)."

 

[jon0844]

Any idea HOW they can get away with this? Surely the ticket should be marked NOT HS1 if it can't be used - not any permitted. If a discounted ticket can be sold with that railcard, then surely the ticket is valid - and the only thing that is wrong is the person that sold the ticket.

There shouldn't even (in my mind) be any need to prove that you were told this. Any permitted would surely include HS1 for anyone else (hence the need for NOT HS1) and it's totally unfair that you could be 'caught out' as the only real way to know is going by what you're told.

That is unless everyone must ignore what they're told and carry around a load of rule books.

 

[jd]

That is unless everyone must ignore what they're told and carry around a load of rule books.

My thinking exactly - they can't expect everybody to know all the rules, people assume if they're told something by a member of TOC staff that it's correct.

 

[MikeWh]

This is groupsave not on XC all over again, isn't it?

@atomicdanny, if you don't mind me asking, what was the price of the original ticket and what sort of ticket was it? If it's had the usual new-deal discount applied to the full price version then there does seem to be a serious issue with the onboard ticket machines.

 

[yorkie]

Any idea HOW they can get away with this? Surely the ticket should be marked NOT HS1 if it can't be used - not any permitted. If a discounted ticket can be sold with that railcard, then surely the ticket is valid - and the only thing that is wrong is the person that sold the ticket.

There shouldn't even (in my mind) be any need to prove that you were told this. Any permitted would surely include HS1 for anyone else (hence the need for NOT HS1) and it's totally unfair that you could be 'caught out' as the only real way to know is going by what you're told.

That is unless everyone must ignore what they're told and carry around a load of rule books.

Absolutely right.

I do wish that people in the OP's position would refuse to hand over any cash, and when issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice, then refuse to pay it (ie, appeal the UPFN, also contact PF etc) on the basis that they bought a ticket they were told was valid, and see if SET take them to court. I suspect they won't. But, if they do, I'd love to see SET lose in court (IANAL and I am not saying you'd be guaranteed to win such a case, but I'd say the chances should be in the customers favour, and I'd lose all faith in our justice system if SET won).

As people keep giving in to them, they will keep getting away with stuff like that. And that goes for various companies, not just SET.

The OP should complain, and if no satisfactory response is received, contact Passenger Focus. If you want some publicity contact the tabloids and/or Watchdog.

SET should not be allowed to get away with acting so disgracefully.

Also, I would like to know if the HS1 ticketing farce will be repeated with HS2. Until there are assurances that passengers will be treated fairly, I am opposed to the building of the line, on the basis that it will be used as an excuse to completely rip passengers off, catch people out, and run-down the existing service on WCML/ECML.

 

[atomicdanny]

It seems to be half the price of the full ticket price (see picture)

edit-

The OP should complain, and if no satisfactory response is received, contact Passenger Focus. If you want some publicity contact the tabloids and/or Watchdog.

I wouldn't go so low as to contact the daily mail, since they would probably twist it!

 

[yorkie]

I'd contact Passenger Focus, and consider contacting the media.

You were treated disgracefully.

Why did you pay up again? I'd have refused to part with any cash.

The HS1 guard didn't even do an excess! I hope you got his name!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When I originally recieved the new deal card a week ago it doesn't even mention that it isn't valid on HS1, only not valid on advance fares, eurostar, scotrail but doesn't even mention south eastern let alone HS1.

If there is nothing in the New Deal T&Cs to prevent the use of it, then there is absolutely no way I'd have been parting with any cash to the HS1 guard if I was you!

 

[AlexS]

From the top of my head it is specifically stated in the New Deal terms and conditions what tickets it can and cannot be used for, it's listed in a memorandum of understanding between the Department for Work and Pensions and ATOC, which was recently updated. However I'm not sure the updated document is available to the public - the New Deal personal adviser should explain the validity of the card - there's recently been a change to the way it's handled.

I think the most recent update has excluded HS1 tickets from the New Deal scheme. I will try and dig it out and have a look if I remember. It doesn't tend to be available for anything other than tickets that may be useful for work at a minimum although you can use it for leisure. I would therefore have expected it to be restricted from HS services.

 

[jon0844]

The HS1 supplement does seem like a good scam, and one that has been discussed on here for some time.

I am certainly of the opinion that we'll get something similar for HS2, so a lot of people will be forced to use the old line. A lot of people like HS1 because it's like the whole train is first class, and it's still not that busy - but who cares when everyone pays so much more?

A paper showed a breakdown of every £1 and how it's distributed on the railway. The TOCs got an average of 'just' 3p in the pound. Does anyone know if SET gets more, or if they get more of a cut on the supplement?

 

[Mojo]

It's surely irrelevant what the Terms and Conditions say, if someone asks a question and they are told that it's okay, and it later transpires that it is not, then the company is still in the wrong. There have been quite famous cases of financial institutions mis-selling products and the customer getting a refund.

 

[scotsman]

That's a joke. Because you're unemployed, you're now a second class citizen apparently!

Shall we rename Standard Class to Third Class now, or later, when the cuts have taken effect

 

[atomicdanny]

That's a joke. Because you're unemployed, you're now a second class citizen apparently!

The media think the worst as well in that regard, since apparently anyone that is unemployed sits around at home drinking cider, smokes about 50 cigarettes a day and scrouging off the government! (In my case I look for work every day and apply for about 10 - 30 jobs a day - even though for every job there are hundreds of people apply for it! - and don't drink any alcohol or smoke!) but that is going a bit off topic

 

[AlexS]

It's surely irrelevant what the Terms and Conditions say, if someone asks a question and they are told that it's okay, and it later transpires that it is not, then the company is still in the wrong. There have been quite famous cases of financial institutions mis-selling products and the customer getting a refund.

Not necessarily - you sign for your New Deal photocard and agree to abide by it's terms and conditions of use. That would probably put the onus on you to abide by the terms and conditions you agree to - much like advance tickets. The ND railcard is designed to help you find employment - nothing more, nothing less. If you use it for leisure journeys then you take your chances with it.

However I would agree that if the train conductor has mis sold a ticket as valid when it's not then you may possibly have a case - I know when Virgin sold me a peak ticket for an off peak journey at double the price or whatever when I wrote to them they refunded me the difference with their apologies.

 

[sonic2009]

So if new deal not valid on hs1 how come new deal fares from cheltenham to ebbsfleet are in existance??

 

[bnm]

And if New Deal is not valid on HS1 then how come booking engines will sell you the discounted fare?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's a joke. Because you're unemployed, you're now a second class citizen apparently!

Shall we rename Standard Class to Third Class now, or later, when the cuts have taken effect

Isn't our current Standard Class the original 3rd class anyway? I'm sure I read once that when the old three class system was abolished what was originally 2nd class was what vanished and what was 3rd class got re-designated as 2nd class...

 

[jon0844]

Because the 'system' is probably supposed to allow travel, and SET has just used some clause in the NrCOC to exclude it. Maybe that's legal, but they'd surely need to get the whole industry to change the ticketing system to make it possible - not just let everyone else sell tickets then pounce on them because it's 'their little secret'.

If SET is so desperate to milk HS1 users, surely they should have to ensure that nobody can get such a ticket in the first place. If they can't, they have to accept the consequences - namely that people will USE the ticket they have that shows no restriction at all. As Yorkie says, these things need to be tested in court - but never will. SET will fold because it's far better to refund a few people than lose a nice little earner. The TM on HS1 shouldn't have done anything except make a note and pass this back to SET who could then seek to ensure tickets issued with a New Deal card are marked NOT HS1.

If I was sold a ticket that is perfectly valid, but the seller somehow managed to price it incorrectly, would it be invalid? Surely not? It would be something to take up with the seller, not the customer.

What about buying a ticket and the TOC somehow fails to process your credit card properly, such that they never actually debit your card. As you never paid at all, is that ticket now invalid or is that another problem for the TOC not you?

 

[jkdd77]

I have a new deal railcard, since I'm currently unemployed (not something that I'm proud of - but I'm not one of those cheating types though)

I bought a ticket (Saturday Morning) from the conductor on the train at Aylesham, (an off peak return) to Arlesey. I asked the conductor for the HS1 ticket to which he replied it was an "any permitted" ticket therefore was valid. I then went to canterbury east walked to the west station to catch the South Eastern Class 395 from there. (since it is a valid route!)

The train got to ashford where the conductor checked my ticket and then told me that the ticket was not valid and that I had to pay for a new one because the new deal card wasn't valid, I tried to explain to him what I was told by the first conductor and he wouldn't have any of it! and I had to pay an extra £45 for another ticket. (basically I feel that I was punished for something for doing something I was told was valid!)

When I originally recieved the new deal card a week ago it doesn't even mention that it isn't valid on HS1, only not valid on advance fares, eurostar, scotrail but doesn't even mention south eastern let alone HS1.

I know that some of you may see me as a fare dodger, but trust me I've always paid for every single ticket and have always checked first the routes but in this case I asked the conductor on the train that I purchased the ticket from!)

but was I right in that since i was given bad advice from the first conductor in that it wasn't fair to be charged for another ticket or am i in the wrong for going on the wrong route (without knowing )

Surely, even if the ticket wasn't valid on HS1, the OP was entitled under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to excess the existing ticket rather than pay for an entirely new ticket?

 

[jon0844]

I got an excess when I travelled on HS1, having bought a ticket from boundary zone 6 to Ebbsfleet and an HS1 upgrade.

In my case, they don't recognise Stratford International as being part of the zonal system (I didn't know that at the time, nor do I accept there being any logic since) so I had to buy another ticket to cover the bit I've already paid for.

I'd have been very upset if I'd been made to pay for an entirely new ticket!

But, once again, SET should be made to ensure that it's made clear to everyone. Take the map at most stations; where does it say that Stratford International is outside of the zones? It's clearly marked to Joe Public as being inside zone 3. In fact, there's a box to explain exceptions for Travelcards and SET isn't on it.

To me, if I get an extension and then pay the HS1 supplement I should be able to travel without any problem.

Once again, SET is afforded the power to just do what it likes.