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Southeastern - Timetable change

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Bayum

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Lots of people unhappy with the timetable changes Southeastern have brought in. Apologies for the no hyperlink or quotation formatting - they’re not working on my phone.


A train firm has come under fire from MPs for axing hundreds of daily services to and from central London since the start of the pandemic.

They said changes being introduced by Southeastern on Sunday [December 11] “beggar belief” as they ignored the recent increase in passengers and the wish to interchange with the Elizabeth line.

They warned of rush-hour overcrowding due to fewer trains and “humungous” safety concerns at stations such as Lewisham, where thousands of commuters change onto the DLR to travel to Canary Wharf.

Southeastern will have 302 fewer weekday trains and 426 fewer at the weekend, compared with September 2019 service levels, under timetable changes that aim to save cash and align its services with demand.

It is removing some direct services to Charing Cross that have existed since Victorian times — with passengers instead routed to Cannon Street, a “ghost area” at the weekend.

Latest figures from the Department for Transport show that passenger numbers on the national railways recovered to 84 per cent by Monday this week.

But Southeastern was accused of basing its calculations on figures that were six months old.

Labour MP Clive Efford, who represents Eltham, told a parliamentary debate that a 20 per cent cut in morning rush-hour trains on the Bexleyheath line would force 3,000 passengers onto other trains.

Sir David Evenett, Tory MP for Bexleyheath and Crayford, said the changes would be a “disaster”. He accused Southeastern of implementing an “inconsiderate, unfair and damaging new timetable”.

He said the Bexleyheath line would lose its off-peak and weekend services to Charing Cross, while the Sidcup line would lose off-peak and weekend services to Cannon Street.

A “loop line” that connects with the Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood - and to Charlton Athletic football club - is also being axed.

Sir David said: “The new timetable has met with huge dismay across our borough of Bexley, and indeed throughout other parts of south-east London. My constituents and I are bitterly disappointed by, and rather angry about, the lack of consultation.

“The status given to Cannon Street as a major terminus area is absolute nonsense. Cannon Street is a commuter line. It is a ghost area outside the rush hour.

“Charing Cross is the most popular service for rail users travelling to London from Bexley for both work and leisure. The changes are inconsiderate, totally unfair and lacking in logic.”

Matthew Pennycook, Labour MP for Greenwich and Woolwich, said there was a risk of “severe overcrowding”.

“It beggars belief that levels of demand as they were six months ago are being used to justify the kind of radical and disruptive change that is due to come into force next week,” he said.

Vicky Foxcroft, Labour MP for Lewisham Deptford, said St Johns station would lose 19 services a day while there would be no direct off-peak services from Blackheath to Charing Cross.

She said: “Lewisham station is absolutely rammed at times, and there have been humungous safety concerns around it and the rerouting of passengers.”

Southeastern is under the control of the Department for Transport. The timetable changes include some new services, including peak-hour trains between Crayford and Blackfriars. It says reducing the number of trains “crossing over” at Lewisham will reduce delays.

Steve White, managing director of Southeastern Railway, said only five weekday services were being cut as a result of the Sunday timetable changes - a reduction from 1,691 to 1,686 trains.

Transport minister Huw Merriman said: “The changes in travel habits, alongside the successful introduction of Elizabeth line services, mean that all-day weekday demand on Southeastern services is around 70 per cent of pre-covid levels.

“That figure drops to between 50 per cent and 65 per cent during peak periods. Demand simply does not warrant 2019 levels of service provision.”

Joanna Davidson, chief executive of London TravelWatch, said: “Rather than ‘all change’ as Southeastern insist, this timetable is bad change for many passengers.

“We will be researching the impact of the timetable and if concerns are raised, we will be asking questions of the Minister as to why it was allowed without prior consultation.

“We will also want to see what impact the changes have on train punctuality, and that the promised improvements materialise."

I’m a tad confused - are they losing as many services as the MPs make out? Are they five journeys across the day and multiply that by 7?
 
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MotCO

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I’m a tad confused - are they losing as many services as the MPs make out? Are they five journeys across the day and multiply that by 7?
initially I thought it may be diagrams v trains, but the figure of 1691 must relate to diagrams. Maybe it's number of coaches - 5 trains of 12 coaches for 5 days is 300 for the weekday services. Or is 302 the number of trains cut, whilst 297 have been introduced giving a net reduction of 5? (Particularly strange if it is 302 trains retimed - hardly a cut.)

I can see your confusion.
 

Stephen42

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The confusion is mainly that they are using the 2019 timetable numbers as the comparison, on a weekday there were 1988 services per day. The May 2022 timetable (what was running last week) had 1691 services i.e. 297 fewer, the December 2022 timetable takes that down to 1686 i.e. an additional 5 on top.

There are some other differences in the new timetable which reduces the number of additional peak trains on most routes, some additional/extended off peak services and a few additional peak trains into Blackfriars.
 

gmaguire

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My usual morning train to Victoria now will leave 4 minutes earlier, but arrive at Victoria at the same time, with it taking longer to get from Lewisham to Nunhead.
 

Sly Old Fox

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Hopefully if the timetable proves reliable more people still start travelling again, and these trains and more can be reinstated.
 

brad465

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I'd say overall the Maidstone East line is a big winner, with it gaining a direct CHX service between there and MDE, and VIC-AFK is still 2tph in the peak and 1tph at other times, similar to now. The main loss on this route is no longer having direct services to Canterbury W and Ramsgate (apart from one morning service), but these often had a long sit at Ashford anyway, especially in the down direction. The Medway Valley line is a mixed bag, seeing 2tph all day between Paddock Wood and Strood rather than 1tph, but losing direct links to Tonbridge, except for the school-run services, is causing outrage.
 

ScotGG

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There are few reductions compared to the post-covid timetable and they're almost all on the Greenwich line.

A big issue is that the revamped timetable seem to have some whopping gaps in service interval. On some lines the biggest probably in 50 years.

Another big issue is many more will have to change to reach their destinations. This has always been on the cards, but with the proviso they'd be other improvements, rather than reductions.

Put those together and it could well cause some to give up on rail, which is then used to justify further cuts. I for one am probably going to stop using them a lot of the time for leisure trips as the service and and changes are just too much hassle.

I'm not going to bother when in the west end going to Charing cross and then have to change at London Bridge especially when service intervals are now extended so I could face a long wait at LBG. I'll either try the tube/bus or just go out less, which will help the economy.

Hopefully if the timetable proves reliable more people still start travelling again, and these trains and more can be reinstated.
Unlikely. It seems almost tailor made on some lines to drive people away.

The way trains are bunched is crazy.
 

Class 466

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I'd say overall the Maidstone East line is a big winner, with it gaining a direct CHX service between there and MDE, and VIC-AFK is still 2tph in the peak and 1tph at other times, similar to now. The main loss on this route is no longer having direct services to Canterbury W and Ramsgate (apart from one morning service), but these often had a long sit at Ashford anyway, especially in the down direction. The Medway Valley line is a mixed bag, seeing 2tph all day between Paddock Wood and Strood rather than 1tph, but losing direct links to Tonbridge, except for the school-run services, is causing outrage.
Theres also the small thing of the PDW to SOO services all sitting at MDW for a mind numbing 9 minutes Monday to Saturday and 12 min on a Sunday (They would only have to stay at PDW for a few minute more to make another connection).
 
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brad465

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Theres also the small thing of the PDW to SOO services all sitting at MDW for a mind numbing 9 minutes SX & SO and 12 min on a Sunday (They would only have to stay at PDW for a few minute more to make another connection).
Oh yes I've just noticed. In the past I have stayed on until MDB when coming from PDW way as it can be quicker to my house, and in any case has less walking. But putting 9 minutes in there means MDW will be fastest all day long. I don't know how many passengers lose out for passing through Maidstone, but I imagine the overwhelming majority get on/off there so won't be adversely affected.
 

Bikeman78

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A big part of the focus seems to be on removing conflicting moves at Lewisham Junction, hence why some routes lose direct trains to Charing Cross. Is Lewisham Junction really such a problem? Trains have been crossing in all directions for as long as I've been alive, and no doubt long before that. In my experience, down trains from Charing Cross heading for Lewisham are delayed more at Tanners Hill Junction waiting to cross the up fast line.

Could they not cross to the slow line at North Kent East Jn? Where did slow trains from Charing Cross switch to the slow lines before the Thameslink rebuild? My recollection is that it was about halfway between London Bridge and the junction where the Deptford line splits off.
 

PGAT

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Honestly losing directs to either Cannon Street or Charing Cross isn't that deep, its easy just to change at London Bridge
 

Trainlog

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I do feel bad for the areas that have lost the Charing X services, I quite like that the Medway valley is getting more trains as its a useful North-South route and lets be fair we already have a Victoria connection here in Maidstone, and the Medway valley can get you access to 2 more mainlines with the NKML at Strood and SEML at Paddock wood and Tonbridge. As much as it will be nice to save 10mins going into Charing X than a slow crawl to Victoria, its not great that its ruined a lot of peoples routines and services for a town and mainline that wasn't that hard done by railwise in the first place.
 

Bikeman78

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Honestly losing directs to either Cannon Street or Charing Cross isn't that deep, its easy just to change at London Bridge
Heading in to London that is true because there are frequent trains to Charing Cross and Cannon Street from London Bridge. Heading back out, one would likely allow at least 10 minutes to change at London Bridge to avoid missing the intended connection. That will easily outstrip a potential two minute delay at a red signal outside Lewisham. It doesn't help that trains from London Bridge to various destinations are not at even 15 minute intervals.
 

ComUtoR

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Heading in to London that is true because there are frequent trains to Charing Cross and Cannon Street from London Bridge. Heading back out, one would likely allow at least 10 minutes to change at London Bridge to avoid missing the intended connection. That will easily outstrip a potential two minute delay at a red signal outside Lewisham.

I don't know the official connection times at London Bridge but 10 minutes is an age. Changing platforms there is very efficient. The problem with the '2 minutes' at Lewisham is because it isn't '2 minutes' Its the total knock on delays that causes.
 

30907

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A big part of the focus seems to be on removing conflicting moves at Lewisham Junction, hence why some routes lose direct trains to Charing Cross. Is Lewisham Junction really such a problem? Trains have been crossing in all directions for as long as I've been alive, and no doubt long before that. In my experience, down trains from Charing Cross heading for Lewisham are delayed more at Tanners Hill Junction waiting to cross the up fast line.

Could they not cross to the slow line at North Kent East Jn? Where did slow trains from Charing Cross switch to the slow lines before the Thameslink rebuild? My recollection is that it was about halfway between London Bridge and the junction where the Deptford line splits off.
My memory (I haven't checked) is that after the 70s rebuild very few trains ex CHX other than Greenwich line crossed to/from the Slows before Hither Green.

The issue is IMO the high-maintenance double scissors junction at Lewisham (ISTR a long wait for a specialist part to be made last time there was a track failure there), and the original timetable proposal involved eliminating its use. I would go for junctions permitting P1/2 (Bexleyheath/North Kent) to Tanners Hill but not P3/4 to St John's.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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My usual morning train to Victoria now will leave 4 minutes earlier, but arrive at Victoria at the same time, with it taking longer to get from Lewisham to Nunhead.
They've put time in the schedule to cover for Brockley High Level station being rebuilt!
The Medway Valley line is a mixed bag, seeing 2tph all day between Paddock Wood and Strood rather than 1tph, but losing direct links to Tonbridge, except for the school-run services, is causing outrage.
That service is well used from Tonbridge all day long in my experience of using is frequently to get to east Farleigh over last few years
My memory (I haven't checked) is that after the 70s rebuild very few trains ex CHX other than Greenwich line crossed to/from the Slows before Hither Green.

The issue is IMO the high-maintenance double scissors junction at Lewisham (ISTR a long wait for a specialist part to be made last time there was a track failure there), and the original timetable proposal involved eliminating its use. I would go for junctions permitting P1/2 (Bexleyheath/North Kent) to Tanners Hill but not P3/4 to St John's.
Oh that will be why NT have Lewisham shut for 10 days this Xmas to rebuild that jcn as its critical to running SE services reliably. Seems nobody told them that basically its to be left in straight line running from now on
 

Bikeman78

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My memory (I haven't checked) is that after the 70s rebuild very few trains ex CHX other than Greenwich line crossed to/from the Slows before Hither Green.

The issue is IMO the high-maintenance double scissors junction at Lewisham (ISTR a long wait for a specialist part to be made last time there was a track failure there), and the original timetable proposal involved eliminating its use. I would go for junctions permitting P1/2 (Bexleyheath/North Kent) to Tanners Hill but not P3/4 to St John's.
So it's a cost cutting exercise, but better performance will sell it to the public better? As regards long waits for replacement parts, why not have spares for the most critical or most likely to fail parts, and then replace the spares when they are used rather than wait for a part to fail?

When was Tanners Hill up to the flyover doubled? About 10 years ago, I think. Prior to that I don't think many down trains went over the flyover. In 2004 the following trains had to cross to the slow lines because they stopped at Deptford or Lewisham.
XX:02/XX:32 to Gravesend via Lewisham and Sidcup
XX:16/XX:46 to Dartford via Lewisham and Bexleyheath
XX:22/XX:52 to Higham (normally Gillingham) via Greenwich
Hayes trains were fast to Ladywell and Sevenoaks trains fast to Hither Green.

If you go back to EPB days, all off peak trains ran from Charing Cross. Assuming half hourly to Dartford via all four routes, that's eight trains per hour that had to cross before St Johns. Plus, the Hayes trains were only half hourly and I'm sure they ran via Lewisham back then. I assume the Sevenoaks were fast to Hither Green, but I cannot remember for sure.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Slow handclap for the BBC News who stated on the local news after the main bulletin at 17.55 today that SouthEastern would no longer be serving Charing Cross... no mention of the important qualifying remark "from some stations".
 

bicbasher

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Another frustrating issue is passengers on the Sidcup line losing their Cannon Street circular service via Greenwich as they were using it to get to Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth line rather than crawling up to London Bridge/Cannon St/Charing Cross. There have been complaints in that area.
 

yorksrob

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Slow handclap for the BBC News who stated on the local news after the main bulletin at 17.55 today that SouthEastern would no longer be serving Charing Cross... no mention of the important qualifying remark "from some stations".

That would make it a very quiet terminus indeed !
 

Class 466

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That would make it a very quiet terminus indeed !
Slow handclap for the BBC News who stated on the local news after the main bulletin at 17.55 today that SouthEastern would no longer be serving Charing Cross... no mention of the important qualifying remark "from some stations".

They were predicting the current level of service so far today :D
 

30907

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If you go back to EPB days, all off peak trains ran from Charing Cross. Assuming half hourly to Dartford via all four routes, that's eight trains per hour that had to cross before St Johns. Plus, the Hayes trains were only half hourly and I'm sure they ran via Lewisham back then. I assume the Sevenoaks were fast to Hither Green, but I cannot remember for sure.
Assuming late 70s onward, North Kent was the semifast Gillingham of blessed memory and fast to Lewisham, possibly the Sidcup too. You are right about Hayes and Sevenoaks.
In the evening peak one of the two Sidcups crossed at Parks Bridge and there was a Greenwich which had to cross around Spa Road.

Thanks for other corrections. Lewisham has, of course, become much more important as an interchange point since the DLR opened.
 

Timmyd

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The reintroduction of Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars is welcome but only hourly in the evenings is a poor show and hardly likely to encourage passengers to use it rather than change at Herne Hill. I can see it being popular on the way up as the Thameslink trains heading north are really busy again by HNH now and the Victoria trains often pick up a few minutes delay meaning connections are often missed. However, with 3 stopping trains leaving HNH in 4 minutes over the flat junctions (eg 710 Victoria, 712 Thameslink, 714 Blackfriars) the potential for congestion and delay is pretty significant.

Other than that am I the only one who finds changing at London Bridge these days harder than in the old station? Then you had wide staircases up to the footbridge whereas now there are often crowds waiting to get on the long escalators down, which will only get worse with so many people changing

And amazed they've managed to add an extra 4 minutes into Lewisham to Nunhead. It was slow enough in the first place!
 

43066

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Other than that am I the only one who finds changing at London Bridge these days harder than in the old station? Then you had wide staircases up to the footbridge whereas now there are often crowds waiting to get on the long escalators down, which will only get worse with so many people changing

I also agree with this, albeit an unavoidable side effect of the new station, which is overall far better in terms of both capacity and connectivity. Of course the platforms are more predictable than the old station, too.
 

brad465

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Other than that am I the only one who finds changing at London Bridge these days harder than in the old station? Then you had wide staircases up to the footbridge whereas now there are often crowds waiting to get on the long escalators down, which will only get worse with so many people changing

And amazed they've managed to add an extra 4 minutes into Lewisham to Nunhead. It was slow enough in the first place!
I also agree with this, albeit an unavoidable side effect of the new station, which is overall far better in terms of both capacity and connectivity. Of course the platforms are more predictable than the old station, too.
Apparently an interim level was planned for changing trains at London Bridge, but was dropped before it could be built.
 

FR510

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A big part of the focus seems to be on removing conflicting moves at Lewisham Junction, hence why some routes lose direct trains to Charing Cross. Is Lewisham Junction really such a problem? Trains have been crossing in all directions for as long as I've been alive, and no doubt long before that. In my experience, down trains from Charing Cross heading for Lewisham are delayed more at Tanners Hill Junction waiting to cross the up fast line.

Could they not cross to the slow line at North Kent East Jn? Where did slow trains from Charing Cross switch to the slow lines before the Thameslink rebuild? My recollection is that it was about halfway between London Bridge and the junction where the Deptford line splits off.
They used to cross to the Greenwich/New Cross at Spa Road. This was all swept away as part of the London Bridge rebuild. They would now have to cross at North Kent East using the Southwark Reversible which would involve too many conflicting moves as Thameslink Rainham services already do this.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Theres also the small thing of the PDW to SOO services all sitting at MDW for a mind numbing 9 minutes Monday to Saturday and 12 min on a Sunday (They would only have to stay at PDW for a few minute more to make another connection).
Thats to allow freight to overtake.
 

izvor

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Theres also the small thing of the PDW to SOO services all sitting at MDW for a mind numbing 9 minutes Monday to Saturday and 12 min on a Sunday (They would only have to stay at PDW for a few minute more to make another connection).
Thats to allow freight to overtake.
Very annoying as it causes it to miss the hourly down Javelin at SOO by a couple of minutes.
 
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