Southeastern Trains Bylaw Report

[lybe]

Good morning,

I’m Hoping for some advice regarding a bazaar and complicated incident with Southeastern trains in June 2023.

I was travelling into London Charring Cross from Kent. When the train stopped at London Bridge a revenue inspection employee boarded the train. He was checking tickets.

10 minutes prior to this the train guard had been along the train also checking tickets.

When the revenue inspection employee rudely asked to see my "key card" which contained my 6-week season ticket I explained to the employee that my card has already been checked.

He scanned the key card, at which point I expressed in no uncertain terms how I was not happy with

a. his rudeness

b. that my ticket had already been checked. It's worth noting I did not use any bad language, nor did I insult his race, sexuality, or religion. But I wasn't happy.

To cut a long story short, he grabbed my key card from my hand and refused to return it. He then printed a “Southeastern Bylaw Report” and physically grabbed me and shoved it down my back and walked of.

I reported this incident to British Transport Police and reported the card stolen. I had to reorder a replacement key card as there was another 2 weeks left before it expired. In the meantime, I incurred £67 of additional tickets while I waited for a replacement key card.

I emailed customer services at Southeastern with copies of purchased tickets to claim the money back.

They replied that they couldn't refund the purchased tickets as there was an ongoing investigation regarding their prosecutions department.

Since this incident in June right up to today I've never been informed what the alleged crime is.

In November 2023 I made a formal complaint through the Railway Ombudsman who concluded they couldn’t investigate any further as there was an ongoing criminal investigation. I told them that this is not the case as far as I’m aware and that they should reopen my complaint. Last week I received their response saying that they had been in contact with Southeastern and they have withdrawn the prosecution case because they don't have my date of birth.

Any advice as to how I can claim this money back and have a written apology for the disgusting way in which I’ve been treated?

Thanks.

 

[jamiearmley]

It's worth noting that you are required to present your ticket for inspection when asked, and that this may occur several times during the same journey and even several times with the same member of staff on the same journey. Failure to do so is an offence.

No idea why your card was withdrawn however, and you seem to have had a rough time of it. Hope you get sorted out satisfactorily.

 

[lybe]

Thanks for your reply.
I totally agree that a passenger has to produce a valid ticket when asked. This I did.
But the way in which it was asked was aggressive and rude.
There is no other industry in this country where such bad customer service is tolerated.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply.
I totally agree that a passenger has to produce a valid ticket when asked. This I did.
But the way in which it was asked was aggressive and rude.
There is no other industry in this country where such bad customer service is tolerated.

Given you are out of pocket (significantly) as a result of this - and no clear accusation seems to have been brought as I understand it, and you have tried to involve the Ombudsman without success* - is it possibly time to ask your MP to take up the case with SE Trains "at an appropriate senior level" ie with the chief executive.

I seem to recall SE Trains is still under a government operating contract from the Dep for Transport - so an MP asking about this would seem entirely in order to me.

I can't myself think of other courses of action open to you - but others on the forum may have ideas.

*Edit - the Rail Ombudsman does not have a good reputation for being effective on this forum, it may be worth adding...

 

[John R]

We often find in situations like this that there are two sides to the story, of which we only hear one. But clearly you showed some antagonism, which the inspector did not take kindly to.

The other thing that makes me suspicious that we are not hearing the whole story is that you reported the card as stolen, which clearly it wasn’t. The railway has the right to retain a ticket, and it did so. That is clearly not stolen, and I suspect you knew that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What are the possible valid reasons for the OP's "Key card" having being withdrawn? On the face of it, the action seems to have possibly been done for a spurious reason, perhaps simply in order to inconvenience the OP. However, perhaps there's more to all this than would first appear, as @Brissle Girl has just mooted in post #5.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

The railway has the right to retain a ticket, and it did so.

Does it? I thought a recent thread had determined that the "Tickets remain the property of the railway" thing no longer actually applied...

 

[lybe]

Thanks for the recent replies.
My valid ticket was snatched from my hand, a printed ticket shoved down my back behind my rucksack.
This is after spending 30 minutes on the platform at Charring Cross with this character who appeared to be on the phone. At the same time I was on the phone to British Transport Police. Reporting assault and thethft of my ticket which I paid nearly £400 for.
Was I polite to him? No.
Was I rude to him? No.

To quote Sir Peter Henry " Southeastern Rail's s**t with Gestapo staff"
Independent 29th April 2015.

Good advice with regards to contacting my MP.

**Typo** Sir Peter Hendy.
Autocorrect.

 

[John R]

Does it? I thought a recent thread had determined that the "Tickets remain the property of the railway" thing no longer actually applied...

Have a look at section 18 of the National Conditions of Travel. Unless the ticket is on a phone it can be withdrawn under certain circumstances. The question is why did the inspector do so, which doesn’t appear to be have been answered satisfactorily by GTR.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

 

[lybe]

Thanks for the information regarding conditions of travel.
Specifically section 18.

18. Inspection of Tickets INFORMATION: Failure to provide a valid Ticket when asked may lead to prosecution. 18.1 You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company, hand over for inspection your Ticket and any Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification which your Ticket requires. 18.2 If for any reason your Ticket is invalid, Train Company staff may withdraw it unless it is held on an electronic device or payment card. Where your Ticket is withdrawn you will be given a receipt.

My ticket was withdrawn while at the same time it was valid.
I was not given a receipt after it was taken.

Can anyone help with Southeasterns response to the railway regulator regarding my date of birth?
Is that actually correct that they can't prosecute without knowing someones date of birth?

If that's the case, then it's a great loophole to get anyway with just about anything?

Should I send an email to them with my date of birth?

Thanks for all the advice so far.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Can anyone help with Southeasterns response to the railway regulator regarding my date of birth?
Is that actually correct that they can't prosecute without knowing someones date of birth?

No it is a complete red herring. You returned a form stating you were the person who travelled on that date and confirming your address. If they wanted to prosecute not having your date of birth is not going to stop them.

I think I would be complaining to Southeastern again and saying you will take them to the small claims court unless they make you whole.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for the recent replies.
My valid ticket was snatched from my hand, a printed ticket shoved down my back behind my rucksack.
This is after spending 30 minutes on the platform at Charring Cross with this character who appeared to be on the phone. At the same time I was on the phone to British Transport Police. Reporting assault and thethft of my ticket which I paid nearly £400 for.
Was I polite to him? No.
Was I rude to him? No.

To quote Sir Peter Henry " Southeastern Rail's s**t with Gestapo staff"
Independent 29th April 2015.

Good advice with regards to contacting my MP.

**Typo** Sir Peter Hendy.
Autocorrect.

I think you’re best off chalking this one down to experience. Sorry about your £67, but as we only have one side of the story it’s hard to say whether the company was right to withdraw your ticket. Reporting it as stolen was however unwise. If you’d come to the forum as soon as it had happened you might have benefited from some more level headed advice.

It’s been six months now, so you do have the option @KirkstallOne mentions with reference to small claims, but if I was in the same position I’d just be minded to let it wash over me. I don’t think I could let this boil my urine for that long, life is too short.

 

[lybe]

It's taken over six months for this debacle to come somewhere near to a close.
The police couldn't fully investigate as there was an ongoing investigation. Southeastern wouldn't help as there was an ongoing investigation. The rail regulator couldn't help as there was an ongoing investigation.
The police officer who has seen body worn footage of our interaction suggested to me that I request to see it. I have done this in September and Southeastern are doing everything possible to not send me the footage which they are obliged to do so In law.

So for those reasons I can't let this go.

 

[Haywain]

Last week I received their response saying that they had been in contact with Southeastern and they have withdrawn the prosecution case because they don't have my date of birth.

It doesn't that say that at all, it says that is one of the reasons that cases can be closed.


Edited to add emphasis.

 

[lybe]

"the prosecution case has been withdrawn".
Letter from the railway ombudsman to me, attached to my first post.

I would also like to know what I am/was being prosecuted for?

 

[Darandio]

It doesn't that say that at all, it says that is one of the reasons that cases can be closed.

Looks like it did to me.

I have recently heard back from Southeastern with regards to your ongoing prosecution case. They have advised that the prosecution case has been withdrawn because your date of birth was not taken at the time of the incident which is necessary to identify an individual.

 

[chawky]

Is it a formal subject access request that you’ve made for the footage? Complain again and report it to the ICO if they do not provide it.

What to do if you don't get a response or you're unhappy with it

ico.org.uk

 

[MotCO]

Have you tried lodging a complaint? https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/help-and-contact/get-in-touch/make-a-complaint

 

[Haywain]

Looks like it did to me.

Fair enough, but from reading the full letter I'm inclined to think that Southeastern haven't given a reason for closing the case and the Ombudsman has misunderstood the comments they have quoted.

 

[lybe]

From what I understand from the letter is that they have withdrawn the prosecution because they don't know the date I born.

Yes, I have reported them to the ICO.

I have no confidence in contacting the Southeastern complaints department as I don't believe they can be trusted.

I did email Steve White back in July but as they were "prosecuting" me they couldn't comment.

Perhaps now might be a good time.

 

[John R]

Re the initial letter you received, I note you haven’t filled out your personal details as requested - a fairly simple request, and you haven’t provided to us your response which you were asked to provide on the back - presumably you did give your version of events?

 

[lybe]

I didn't need to give them my address as it was written on the letter.
As you can see I refused to give them my d.o.b and NI number.
Why would I?
Attached is the reverse of the letter.

 

[John R]

Well if that response is typical of your interactions, both in the train and subsequently then I am not surprised that you have found yourself at the sharp end of the revenue protection process.

 

[lybe]

Thank you,
You've proved my point.

 

[island]

Well if that response is typical of your interactions, both in the train and subsequently then I am not surprised that you have found yourself at the sharp end of the revenue protection process.

Indeed.

As you can see I refused to give them my d.o.b and NI number.

It’s a further offence in England not to give your DOB if an inspector proposes to issue you a penalty fare.

However, the matter is now out of time to be taken to court.

 

[AlterEgo]

How did the police case with you being a victim of a theft and assault go? Did you give statements, was a case opened, what was the conclusion?

I am sorry if you feel some posters here are not giving you the advice you'd like, but allowing yourself to be consumed by such a minor dispute over an apology and £67 you may or may not see again isn't good for the soul.

That isn't a defence of Southeastern or their staff - I used to live on their network and do understand some of them can be less than pleasant, to put it mildly. But I could not ever see myself being so cross about something so long after the fact to want a written apology. Equally, I cannot ever foresee myself acting in any way to a member of staff that would make them want to withdraw my season ticket, either.

Please do not let it bother you so much; you are, I hope, bigger and better than this.

 

[lybe]

The employee didn't not ask for my date of Birth.

The police contacted me some weeks after the even and asked what happened. Btw, the police had my date of birth.

He then went and spoke to the employee and requested the body worn footage.
Because Southeastern told him they were prosecuting me, he seemed to be reluctant to get involved.
After seeing the video footage, he described it as two blokes having a bad morning.
He basically and persuasively said I should drop it and have my day in court when it comes.
Which never happened.

I'm astounded that an individual can face court action but never find out on what grounds.

Thanks AlterEgo for your kind words but unfortunately I always have to fight for what is right. If these thugs are left unchallenged what will they get away with next?

 

[WesternLancer]

The employee didn't not ask for my date of Birth.

The police contacted me some weeks after the even and asked what happened. Btw, the police had my date of birth.

He then went and spoke to the employee and requested the body worn footage.
Because Southeastern told him they were prosecuting me, he seemed to be reluctant to get involved.
After seeing the video footage, he described it as two blokes having a bad morning.
He basically and persuasively said I should drop it and have my day in court when it comes.
Which never happened.

I'm astounded that an individual can face court action but never find out on what grounds.

Thanks AlterEgo for your kind words but unfortunately I always have to fight for what is right. If these thugs are left unchallenged what will they get away with next?

Like I say, go to your MP - write in polite terms, ask them to raise the issue with SE Trains at a senior level, ask for the the MP to help your be re-imbursed for the £67 you had to pay when their staff took away a valid ticket from you, point out how much you pay SE Trains for travel on a regular basis. SE trains will then hopefully give their side of the story to the MP - who would then probably convey it to you.

Surely - and this is more a point for other forum members - at the end of the day, if the passenger held a valid ticket (key go card valid for the journey) then that should be accepted. We often talk about the 'attitude test' on here and maybe the OP was at the edge of it or failing it - but it's surely not an offence to not want to hand over a smart ticket with credit on it, or to use an 'abrupt' form of words with RPIs (as opposed to offensive or rude), or to answer documents with minimal information (the mitigation given claims the ticket was valid - which strikes me as being reasonable mitigation - and presumably the ticket was accepted as valid by the SE Trains guard who checked it earlier in the journey).

 

[AlterEgo]

The employee didn't not ask for my date of Birth.

The police contacted me some weeks after the even and asked what happened. Btw, the police had my date of birth.

He then went and spoke to the employee and requested the body worn footage.
Because Southeastern told him they were prosecuting me, he seemed to be reluctant to get involved.
After seeing the video footage, he described it as two blokes having a bad morning.
He basically and persuasively said I should drop it and have my day in court when it comes.
Which never happened.

I'm astounded that an individual can face court action but never find out on what grounds.

Thanks AlterEgo for your kind words but unfortunately I always have to fight for what is right. If these thugs are left unchallenged what will they get away with next?

So if we just shave things down to the facts:

- You reported an allegation of theft of your ticket to the police, which was not taken forward despite the police having viewed the bodycam. (An RPI cannot "steal" your ticket anyway, but this is by the by)
- You reported an allegation of assault to the police, which was not taken forward despite the police having viewed the bodycam.
- The police said you should drop it and that you were two people having a bad morning. This means to me the police officer doesn't see any offences and reading between the lines it sounds to be like a diplomatic way of saying "you're just as bad as each other".

I think given these facts you are unlikely to get any sort of apology for the way the RPI treated you, nor any satisfaction.

Equally unlikely is an apology for your details having been taken or an apology for an investigation being undertaken into whatever you were supposed to have done, whether that was for a ticketing offence or your conduct. This isn't going to happen; you need to be realistic about this and let it go.

What is more realistic, if you really feel the injustice can't lie, is asking for your £67 back, because you still are materially out of pocket. My recommendation is therefore:

1) Complain again to Southeastern. Keep it factual, and only on a single issue - the return of £67 after your valid Key smartcard was withdrawn. Submit your reference for your Key and also the replacement ticket/s bought.
2) Raise it with your MP if you feel so inclined.

 

[MotCO]

We often talk about the 'attitude test' on here and maybe the OP was at the edge of it or failing it - but it's surely not an offence to not want to hand over a smart ticket with credit on it, or to use an 'abrupt' form of words with RPIs (as opposed to offensive or rude), or to answer documents with minimal information (the mitigation given claims the ticket was valid - which strikes me as being reasonable mitigation - and presumably the ticket was accepted as valid by the SE Trains guard who checked it earlier in the journey).

I may be getting confused by the double negative, but I thought it was an offence not to show a ticket when requested.