Southern Approach to (Heathrow) HS2

[The Ham]

Following on from the news that the Southern Approach to Heathrow isn't likely to be taken forwards due to Covid-19 impacting on air travel, how likely do people think that it would come back in a few years to act as Southern Approach to HS2?

For details of the project you can look at the old thread:

Heathrow Southern Link proposals

A report in today's GetWestLondon reports that Heathrow has given it's support to a proposed link up to the Southern Rail network just west of Staines and would include a direct link to the Cargo terminal for fright to be loaded straight onto trains instead of lorries in some cases...

www.railforums.co.uk

I suspect that acting as a Southern Approach to HS2 may well change the services which use it, maybe with direct services from Southampton and Portsmouth and/or being more of a local railway South of Heathrow.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Probably not but Wrath May happen still in my lifetime. Western Rail Access To Heathrow

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with accessing Old Oak Common using the route of the Heathrow Southern Approach is that you only really have the four Heathrow Express paths to use between Heathrow, Old Oak Common at Paddington. Arguably it is only a short stretch of new build railway but for 4tph seems a lot of work. I think there is already access at Richmond for Old Oak Common and it could be better to find a way of improving access to there (and similarly via Clapham Junction) for access.

I suppose the question is how many cars can be taken off the M25 in the South Western quadrant by looking to improve the railway. Possibly not many because of the wide range of origin-destination pairs which differ from the way the railway into London functions.

 

[The Ham]

The problem with accessing Old Oak Common using the route of the Heathrow Southern Approach is that you only really have the four Heathrow Express paths to use between Heathrow, Old Oak Common at Paddington. Arguably it is only a short stretch of new build railway but for 4tph seems a lot of work. I think there is already access at Richmond for Old Oak Common and it could be better to find a way of improving access to there (and similarly via Clapham Junction) for access.

I suppose the question is how many cars can be taken off the M25 in the South Western quadrant by looking to improve the railway. Possibly not many because of the wide range of origin-destination pairs which differ from the way the railway into London functions.

It depends on where you looking to access from Richmond isn't easy to get to from Woking or the lines through there.

 

[bluenoxid]

What makes this project “dead“ compared to three months ago? It wasn’t funded. I was aware that Heathrow would review the project if the third runway was not approved.

 

[edwin_m]

The Southern Rail Link proposals always recognized that linking with paths into Paddington so as to serve OOC was an important part of making the business case. Therefore, if a decline in the importance of Heathrow has killed the business case, access to OOC isn't going to be an extra factor that could come to its rescue.

 

[JonathanH]

It depends on where you looking to access from Richmond isn't easy to get to from Woking or the lines through there.

No, but Clapham Junction is and investing in that interchange or capacity on the West London Line with a station at Old Oak Common may offer quicker journeys than the circuitous route through Chertsey, Egham and Heathrow.

 

[The Ham]

What makes this project “dead“ compared to three months ago? It wasn’t funded. I was aware that Heathrow would review the project if the third runway was not approved.

Not sure the full exact, it was said on the original thread by @Bald Rick citing that Covid-19 had impacted flying to the extent that it was no longer viable.

Heathrow Southern Link proposals

The Heathrow Southern Railway company have assumed that the 4 trains per hour Paddington-Heathrow-Basingstoke/Guildford services would be replacing the HEX services. There is unlikely to be enough paths on the GWML without. They also assume that the grade separated junction at Woking is built...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[PTR 444]

Not sure the full exact, it was said on the original thread by @Bald Rick citing that Covid-19 had impacted flying to the extent that it was no longer viable.

Heathrow Southern Link proposals

The Heathrow Southern Railway company have assumed that the 4 trains per hour Paddington-Heathrow-Basingstoke/Guildford services would be replacing the HEX services. There is unlikely to be enough paths on the GWML without. They also assume that the grade separated junction at Woking is built...

www.railforums.co.uk

It would be nice if the user provided some evidence to back up the claim that “COVID-19 has killed off this project due to reduced flying levels”. Maybe something like a news article with the relevant part quoted on here.

I somehow can’t see COVID killing this project for good. People will still want to fly abroad and air travel will eventually return to pre-pandemic levels, even if it takes a few years. Also with more people switching to their cars, congestion on the M25 south west quadrant is only going to get worse and there is only so much room for widening it. Remember, more road space creates more traffic. We need to focus on getting as many cars off the M25 SW quadrant as possible, and HSR fits the bill perfectly for this.

 

[JonathanH]

People will still want to fly abroad and air travel will eventually return to pre-pandemic levels, even if it takes a few years. Also with more people switching to their cars, congestion on the M25 south west quadrant is only going to get worse and there is only so much room for widening it. Remember, more road space creates more traffic. We need to focus on getting as many cars off the M25 SW quadrant as possible, and HSR fits the bill perfectly for this.

Whilst you are right that some alternative needs to be found to deal with congestion on the M25 south west quadrant, the fact is that every journey on that stretch of road is unique and the Southern approach railway to Heathrow didn't really solve it, just as the North Downs Line and the various radial lines from London don't solve it at the moment. The M25 has made certain journeys possible, not all of them to Heathrow and it is not clear to me that the linking of various routes to Heathrow using the line through Chertsey really offers the perfect alternative to many of these. This alone makes the case for the investment rather dubious.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

That is the problem with roads like the M25 - they are just too damned useful

 

[Bald Rick]

I should perhaps explain my earlier comment.

The Southern Rail link was predicated on someone paying for it. Nobody wanted to when Heathrow was an 80m passengers per year airport with plans to become a 130 passengers per year airport. The ‘private finance’ relied very firmly on ‘public funding’. Notably, it was not a condition of the Heathrow third runway to build it.

Now that 80m passengers per year is a very, very long way away, and the third runway is unlikely to proceed (as per court challenge, let alone COVID), the Southern link is surely dead - or st the very least in a deep hibernation of not less than a decade.

Also notable that as I write at 0830 on a Monday morning, when the M25 SW quadrant is normally solid, it is free flowing and relatively empty.

This is my opinion, as there have been no announcements on it (nor about Heathrow expamxion, which is telling).

 

[camflyer]

Shame to see schemes like this kicked into the long grass. Ideally, an economic downturn would be the perfect time to invest in infrastructure to encourage growth and ensure that there was a fit for purpose network ready for when the demand finally returns.

 

[JonathanH]

Shame to see schemes like this kicked into the long grass. Ideally, an economic downturn would be the perfect time to invest in infrastructure to encourage growth and ensure that there was a fit for purpose network ready for when the demand finally returns.

Also, could be a good time to take stock and consider whether it is the right scheme or just something that links up some underused lines on a map.

 

[Mollman]

Oh ye of little faith:
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...-with-heathrow-southern-rail-link-24-07-2020/
Rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris is “keen to move forward at pace” with a southern rail link to Heathrow.

[Don't have acceess to the rest of the article]

 

[kevin_roche]

[Don't have acceess to the rest of the article]

here it is

Rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris is “keen to move forward at pace” with a southern rail link to Heathrow.
In a stakeholder update last month, the management team at Heathrow Southern Railway Ltd (HSRL) said progress on the proposal had been “obscured” by changes in government and the coronavirus pandemic.


However, during an end of day adjournment debate in the House of Commons earlier this week, Heaton-Harris said the Department for Transport will “continue the southern access to Heathrow scheme”, working with Network Rail and Heathrow to integrate it with the western rail link and ensure efficient design and delivery.


“I am very aware of the strong benefits a southern access to Heathrow scheme will provide not only to the passengers and employees of Heathrow but to the people in living in the surrounding south-west London, Surrey, Hampshire and beyond,” Heaton-Harris said.


“I look forward to working with all who are interested in developing this scheme and I am keen to move forward at pace.”


Heaton-Harris was responding to Guildford MP Angela Richardson, who led the adjournment debate. Richardson said that now is the “right time” to look at the economic benefits, skills and jobs offered by a southern rail link.

She emphasised that while Heathrow can be reached by the Piccadilly line, Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect and, in the future, the Elizabeth line, it is “nigh on impossible” to get there by train from a number of south-west London boroughs and Surrey and Hampshire towns.


She called for “full throttle” to be applied to the scheme - a privately financed proposal that would also connect into HS2 at Old Oak Common and run through to Waterloo via Clapham Junction.


“Most infrastructure schemes envisaged for the North, Midlands and South West require significant amounts of public money but the southern rail link to Heathrow does not," she said.


“Private sector investors backed by design and construction partners are ready to get on and build this railway and I believe we should choose one of them to do just that.”


HSRL said the commitment to “move forward at pace” on a southern rail link is welcome but now needs to be followed through.


HSRL chief executive Chris Stokes said: “We were delighted with the powerful case made by Guildford MP Angela Richardson and several other MPs from the region for resolving the decades-long issue of a southern rail link to Heathrow Airport.


“We’re ready to get started on building this urgently needed railway, which will make a major contribution to reducing carbon dioxide and other harmful emissions by enabling a dramatic modal shift of airport users and commuters from road to rail, as well as reducing congestion on the M25.


“We urge MPs and other stakeholders to take rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris at his word and do everything possible to see this commitment turned into action in the spirit of the times.”

 

[JonathanH]

Being realistic, I wouldn't read too much into the response from Chris Heaton-Harris. Adjournment debates are an opportunity for backbench MPs to raise an issue and for the minister to respond with favourable words - they carry very little weight. It is quite possible to "move forward with pace" to the project hitting a decision not to proceed, especially if there is no funding available.

 

[Mollman]

here it is

Thanks

 

[James90012]

From a London market perspective, I'd be interested in understanding the value of using two of the Heathrow Express paths to instead route to Reading via Bracknell (retaining 2tph via the current route to Waterloo, and freeing up the other inner path pairs to come from >insert origin here < . End to end journey times from Wokingham, Bracknell, Ascot and Sunningdale to London are really poor compared to other surrounding areas, and routing this way could knock a good 10-20 minutes off the journey time. I don't believe other options would be quite as competitive in terms of journey time reduction albeit the connectivity to Old Oak from Guildford and Basingstoke would be really valuable. That said if 4tph can be delivered all day, indeed as was/is planned, generalised journey time will fall which may be enough.

It seems to me that delivering the existing planned pattern would almost definitely need the long discussed Woking flyover too...

 

[JonathanH]

End to end journey times from Wokingham, Bracknell, Ascot and Sunningdale to London are really poor compared to other surrounding areas, and routing this way could knock a good 10-20 minutes off the journey time.

By the time you get to Paddington and on the underground there probably wouldn't be a lot in it to many destinations. It would obviously be useful for west London.

I'm not sure 2tph would justify the investment.

 

[kevin_roche]

When I was working in West London I used to travel from Basingstoke via Reading. The Journey to work had a convenient connection but on the return journey, the train from Paddington always seemed to arrive just in time to see the Basingstoke train leaving.

A direct train from Basingstoke to Paddington would have been great.

I was also really hoping I would live to see the day when I could catch a train to Heathrow to go on holiday.

 

[cle]

By the time you get to Paddington and on the underground there probably wouldn't be a lot in it to many destinations. It would obviously be useful for west London.

I'm not sure 2tph would justify the investment.

Onto Crossrail at OOC (or sooner) is probably the bigger game changer here than staying on for Paddington’s tube connections. Especially for the City or Docklands, but also West End. That itself would relieve Vauxhall and the Victoria line a tiny bit, anything there helps!

 

[camflyer]

When I was working in West London I used to travel from Basingstoke via Reading. The Journey to work had a convenient connection but on the return journey, the train from Paddington always seemed to arrive just in time to see the Basingstoke train leaving.

A direct train from Basingstoke to Paddington would have been great.

I was also really hoping I would live to see the day when I could catch a train to Heathrow to go on holiday.

For all of the countless times I've used Heathrow, I have never arrived or departed by train. There are many areas under the flightpath for which there is no easy rail route to the airport so you find yourself contributing to the congestion on local roads.. For a such a major airport, it's rail link (apart from to Paddington) have always been lousy.

 

[The Ham]

If anyone's interested the Heathrow Area Transport Forum have some background information including:

Western Rail and Southern Access Lobby - Heathrow Area Transport Forum

The HATF Board have recently been considering how best to continue to lobby for delivery of the Western Rail Link to Heathrow (WRLtH) and Southern Access to Heathrow (SAtH) schemes. Regardless of whether the airport is expanded, the HATF Board consider both schemes vital components for...

www.hatf.org.uk

• A summary of the key benefits that might be provided by Western Rail Access and Southern Access based on publicly available material;
• A list of local MPs together with their contact details;
• A copy of a letter from HATF to Grant Shapps setting out HATF’s support to the schemes;
• A reply from Grant Shapps to HATF confirming his support for both schemes but that also the DCO for Western Rail faces further delay due to the paused expansion programme and the impact of the covid-19 virus.
• A copy of a letter from the Thames Valley Chamber of Commerce to Grant Shapps setting out their arguments for the scheme; and,
• A letter from Network Rail to the HATF chair with further supporting information.

 

[camflyer]

I can understand the Southern link being kicked into the long grass but I thought the Western link was certain to proceed as it is relatively low cost (under a billion) with a lot of clear benefits and local support.

 

[Meerkat]

Personally I would have thought the Western link had fewer benefits.
Passengers from Reading direction are already only one change from Heathrow as opposed to unreliable coaches or multiple changes from the south.
Western link is totally linked to air travel, whilst the Southern link provides a load of local connections plus in station interchange to HS2 for a wide area.

 

[edwin_m]

Personally I would have thought the Western link had fewer benefits.
Passengers from Reading direction are already only one change from Heathrow as opposed to unreliable coaches or multiple changes from the south.
Western link is totally linked to air travel, whilst the Southern link provides a load of local connections plus in station interchange to HS2 for a wide area.

You're probably right, but the Western Link is also much easier/cheaper to build with a few miles of line across mainly open country, the major works being to cross the M25 and join the GWML. The Southern Link is much longer and needs to find a way through the built-up area around Staines. It probably also needs the Woking flyover and other works building before the service benefits can be achieved. With uncertainty about the future of the commuter market, and government spending likely to be aimed further north, that must now be in considerable doubt.

 

[camflyer]

Personally I would have thought the Western link had fewer benefits.
Passengers from Reading direction are already only one change from Heathrow as opposed to unreliable coaches or multiple changes from the south.
Western link is totally linked to air travel, whilst the Southern link provides a load of local connections plus in station interchange to HS2 for a wide area.

The Southern link has huge benefits but it's also much more expensive and complicated. The Western link may have fewer benefits but they are well defined (direct trains from Reading and all points west!) and the scheme is simpler with less opposition.