Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Legzr1]

You made an idiot of yourself the other day when you said people forget there are alternatives into London (and other major cities) for commuters. We can discuss that if you like as well.

Don't do it again assuming the knowledge of other people or try and distort what they are arguing.

The job is not the same 50 or 100 years ago, yes there are some lines with semaphore signalling (I'll tell you exactly where they are if you like) but stuff like AWS is universal bar a few defined circumstances. For example around areas with low line speeds and restricted overlaps like Birmingham New Street.

There are also requirements of DOO, so wouldn't be applied over some lines.

Perhaps your selective 'mind' missed the part where I said there are alternatives to rail travel - no stipulation on 'into, out of or within' but I can't help you if you assume everything.
And there are alternatives as you well know.

I'll go on record and say you have zero experience of driving professionally and if you think a simulator qualifies you for anything other than shallow quips on a train spotter forum then you're deluded my friend.


Of course the job is different but your list was absolutely stupid - I'd go further and say you posted it thinking you wouldn't be picked up on it. Shame for you there are people on here who know what they're talking about.

Now, off to google for more of your 'insight' - perhaps whilst there you could look for the SA detailing all those areas without AWS including the long, long stretches of bi-directional working without it.

You're coming across as a bitter and envious ex-employee.
Shame really.

 

[Legzr1]

ASLEF are just holding out for a deal at the moment. They'll walk back when they get offered a decent pay or terms deal.

As long as the terms detail some acceptable way of keeping a guard aboard or massive improvement to the crappy CCTV you're probably right.

Money?

Doubt it.

 

[Robertj21a]

ASLEF are just holding out for a deal at the moment. They'll walk back when they get offered a decent pay or terms deal.

Presumably they can't - the issue at stake is about safety. Not sure they've ever suggested it's all about money.........

:roll:

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Ah, good old RMT. The joke that just keeps on giving.

So once their President topples the 'working-class hating'* Tory government, will he set his sights on the rest of the capitalist economies of the world in his quest to be Supreme Leader? Good luck with that one then, comrades.

*: I consider myself to be working-class. I voted Tory.

if any party hates the 'working class' it;s Labour ... the patronising chattering lcasses of the islington set and the pathologically work avoiding Facility time abusers and their love for the skivers and the ' poor down trodded miners who maggie threw on the scrap heap ' ...

 

[highdyke]

Perhaps your selective 'mind' missed the part where I said there are alternatives to rail travel - no stipulation on 'into, out of or within' but I can't help you if you assume everything.
And there are alternatives as you well know.

I'll go on record and say you have zero experience of driving professionally and if you think a simulator qualifies you for anything other than shallow quips on a train spotter forum then you're deluded my friend.


Of course the job is different but your list was absolutely stupid - I'd go further and say you posted it thinking you wouldn't be picked up on it. Shame for you there are people on here who know what they're talking about.

Now, off to google for more of your 'insight' - perhaps whilst there you could look for the SA detailing all those areas without AWS including the long, long stretches of bi-directional working without it.

You're coming across as a bitter and envious ex-employee.
Shame really.

I know the rail industry has a long tradition of treating everyone like an idiot and some people love to make assumptions (highly dangerous in your role) but this isn't moving anything forward.

*puts on ignore list*

 

[Legzr1]

As I thought

 

[highdyke]

Presumably they can't - the issue at stake is about safety. Not sure they've ever suggested it's all about money.........

:roll:

They were quick to cash in when second men went progressively too and when DOO came in..

 

[Dave1987]

The job is not the same 50 or 100 years ago, yes there are some lines with semaphore signalling (I'll tell you exactly where they are if you like) but stuff like AWS is universal bar a few defined circumstances. For example around areas with low line speeds and restricted overlaps like Birmingham New Street.

So what about SimBids eh? Surely you know all about that and the risks associated.

 

[highdyke]

Yep, Simplified Bi-Direction signalling Dave, worked several places that had that, know all about and associated AWS. Keep grasping at straws. Care to name the lines in the country with it? I'll start you off, parts of the ECML north of Northallerton parts GWML west of Didcot.. WTF has this got to do with DOO?

Point still stand you are not working Stirling Singles or Light Pacfics, there are requirements of DOO as well you know. Once those requirements are met it's safe.

 

[Legzr1]

Dear oh dear. So what about SimBids eh? Surely you know all about that and the risks associated.

Seems the more he posts the less we have to assume.

 

[74A]

They were quick to cash in when second men went progressively too and when DOO came in..

Thats not quite true. There was a big dispute back in the 1980's and eventually the unions had to give in. It seems that ASLEF now want to fight this battle over again.

 

[Legzr1]

Yep, Simplified Bi-Direction signalling Dave, worked several places that had that, know all about and associated AWS. Keep grasping at straws. Care to name the lines in the country with it? I'll start you off, parts of the ECML north of Newcastle, parts GWML west of Didcot.. WTF has this got to do with DOO?

Point still stand you are not working Stirling Singles or Light Pacfics, there are requirements of DOO as well you know. Once those requirements are met it's safe.

You made a post with some questionable assumptions/ outright b/s and got called out on it.

This is your retort?



How far is Benton to Marshall Meadows?
It's quite a few miles of something that doesn't exist isn't it?

 

[highdyke]

Yep it ends at Marshall Meadows, where there is a feeder station, and Edinburgh SC takes over, commissioned in the late 1970s. South of there is Tweedmouth, Alnmouth and Morpeth boxes (late 80s/early 90s) all SSI with NX panels and three aspect signalling as appose to mainly 4 north of the border as far as just the other side of Haymarket. It was cost effective then and thought desirable to fit SIMBIDS, the boxes survived because at the time CCTV tech wasn't so advanced for the crossings. The western region was first to use it I believe on the GWML, Swindon and Bristol panels mainly.

Do you know why there's is bi-di and a sharp curve near grantshouse. Signals EG area?

 

[ComUtoR]

there are requirements of DOO as well you know. Once those requirements are met it's safe.

This has always concerned me with DOO and numerous other railway standards etc.

What happens when those requirements aren't being met ? I understand that standards evolve over time and that you cannot retrospectively apply the standards but we have units running about that do not meet the current requirements for DOO.

 

[seve73]

Nice to see this discussion has descended in to bitching and back stabbing.

 

[highdyke]

Thats not quite true. There was a big dispute back in the 1980's and eventually the unions had to give in. It seems that ASLEF now want to fight this battle over again.

Yep I remember the dispute in the early 80s, on TV one Union official said "That loco over there has 3000 odd hp and 120 tons, one man can't be in charge of all that'. Next minute he was. Think NRN came in shortly after (now obsolete). Double manning was still a requirement over 100mph, which got relaxed to 110mph (WCML speed raising in early 80s) then 125 after privatisation after members were paid off.

I am surprised it wasn't more of an issue after Southall, when Driver Harrison was picking up his stuff on the floor on an HST. The missing double yellow at Hayes, then the yellow around the bend and finally realising when staring at the red at the signal gantry country side of Southall. No AWS working, fault was reported to Swindon control the previous evening.

 

[DriverXYD]

Can I just say that theres a massive difference between driving a train in real life to driving a train in a simulator, theres just no real way to compare the two as you hardly have real noise or vibration sensations or changable weather conditions to deal with, then theres the addition distraction if theres noisy passengers, drunk passengers, passengers fighting & even passengers fornicating right out side your driving cab to put up especially if your running under restrictive aspects.

I'm saying this with over 10 years experience driving DOO in the Glasgow area & had all of the above happen while I've been driving. I've also had numerous go's on the scotrail 334 simulator, so can compare the two in real life.

As for the Conductors at SouthernRail, I feel for them as I think as the RMT has let them down badly (imho) by allowing the media to hoodwink the travelling public by saying this strike is all about who opens & closes the train doors, its got a hell of a lot more to do than who controls the doors or who doesn't & I cant understand why the RMT doesn't realize this ?

 

[PHILIPE]

Thats not quite true. There was a big dispute back in the 1980's and eventually the unions had to give in. It seems that ASLEF now want to fight this battle over again.

That was the flexible rostering issue, when the 8 hour guaranteed day was dispensed with. (it was OK to diagram up to 9hrs on some diagrams). When that was introduced diagrams were for issued reflecting the actual working time on duty. If I remember correctly, turns of duty could be diagrammed anything between 5 and 10 and half hours. Depot rosters were then drawn up to meet the changing requirement.

 

[AlterEgo]

Presumably they can't - the issue at stake is about safety. Not sure they've ever suggested it's all about money.........

:roll:

I look forward to reading about the deal they eventually cut. Same old same old. There's a good reason the ASLEF never merged with the RMT.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nice to see this discussion has descended in to bitching and back stabbing.

It's been like that from the outset. Meanwhile, DOO is expanding.

 

[74A]

That was the flexible rostering issue, when the 8 hour guaranteed day was dispensed with. (it was OK to diagram up to 9hrs on some diagrams). When that was introduced diagrams were for issued reflecting the actual working time on duty. If I remember correctly, turns of duty could be diagrammed anything between 5 and 10 and half hours. Depot rosters were then drawn up to meet the changing requirement.

There were a number of strikes in the 1980's. There was one about DOO and a different one about flexible rostering.

 

[plymothian]

I look forward to reading about the deal they eventually cut. Same old same old. There's a good reason the ASLEF never merged with the RMT.

Too right.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Sorry to ask again, but I'm a bit confused:

When is control of the doors actually being given to the drivers on Southern and on which routes? Or are these strikes still about the 387s being DOO?

I would like to add this information to Wikipedia, so if anyone could provide a link then that would be very helpful.

 

[Llanigraham]

I have actually driven a train, driven simulators (commercial and non commercial) and know the rule book and probably more about how the UK's network is laid out that you will ever know..

Leaving that aside, even in the 1990s some lines didn't have AWS, in the 1970s it was commonplace, there was no radio on most trains in the 1970s either, semaphores have been replaced bright colour lights that can shine through fog, continuous air brakes, power operated doors, better suspension and axles boxes, decent ergonomic cabs with air conditioning and decent view, no risk of being scolded by steam, power as required, DRA, TPWS, clear speed signage, ATP on some lines, ERMTS on others, and so on and so forth..

The railway is not anything like it was even in the 50s, let alone the Edwardian or Victorian period. You would be insane to suggest otherwise. It has changed and it will change.

And it has changed since you left, so your comments are not really helpful.

 

[Legzr1]

Yep it ends at Marshall Meadows, where there is a feeder station, and Edinburgh SC takes over, commissioned in the late 1970s. South of there is Tweedmouth, Alnmouth and Morpeth boxes (late 80s/early 90s) all SSI with NX panels and three aspect signalling as appose to mainly 4 north of the border as far as just the other side of Haymarket. It was cost effective then and thought desirable to fit SIMBIDS, the boxes survived because at the time CCTV tech wasn't so advanced for the crossings. The western region was first to use it I believe on the GWML, Swindon and Bristol panels mainly.

Do you know why there's is bi-di and a sharp curve near grantshouse. Signals EG area?

So, a route you're aware of around 60 miles with simbids meaning no AWS but you say everywhere barring some obscure place is fitted with AWS and TPWS?

I rest my case.

Grantshouse - been a few years since I signed there but guess you're talking about the collapsed tunnel at Penmanshiel. You can clearly see the entrance on the south side when you pass.



And back to DOO...

 

[Domh245]

Sorry to ask again, but I'm a bit confused:

When is control of the doors actually being given to the drivers on Southern and on which routes? Or are these strikes still about the 387s being DOO?

I would like to add this information to Wikipedia, so if anyone could provide a link then that would be very helpful.

The Gatwick Express 387 dispute was "solved" after the court case - this current dispute is unrelated. As for when and what is going DOO, it's a staggered approach over several months and is for every line that isn't operated by either class 171 or 313 units - which can't be converted to DOO. SarahJ posted the routes would be going over to DOO this week, and I think that either she or someone else in the know has posted when other services have gone over, but they've rather been lost in amongst the rest of this discussion.

 

[TBirdFrank]

So last night we went to No 30 James St, Liverpool and caught the 23.09 to Lime St and then the 23.38 to Piccadilly.

James St of course has a special relevance doesn't it. There were half a dozen people including events management agency people carefully sending down one lift at a time to restrict numbers on platforms. We had to queue for quite a while watching the well disciplined denizens of Liverpool "complying" with staff instructions and pushing in left right and centre.

As we were on a Loop platform we didn't see the Wirral platform - but from the number of people pushing in, drunk, refusing to listen to orders, etc, etc, it would have been interesting to see how some of these desk jockeys would have regarded the situation in real life.

Then we got to Lime St! There was an initial queue but it soon descended into an unruly drunk melee around the barrier with those who were sober enough to queue challenging the latecomers, while staff were notable by their absence and the police kept a distant watch but did nothing to keep order.

When a five car set arrived at P 8 a mad rush ensued and it was every man - or woman - for themselves. Eventually, wedged to the doors, we departed. Sure enough team rivalry broke out and fight started between rugby league fans of Warrington and Widnes. Friends tried to keep the two hotheads apart and reduce it to rival singing but at Widnes both parties decamped and a full scale battle started on the dark and unstaffed platform. No police had travelled on the train so anything could have happened, and from the bang on the bodywork as one of them went down next to where I was sitting I am glad I don't have his head today.

One man operation - safe - As if!!!!

It isn't - it never will be, and only desk bound button pushers would ever suggest it is.

I live in the real world, call it out for what it is, and wonder why, last night, I left the car in Manchester and used public transport! No-one who didn't have to would do it by choice!

 

[Chrisgr31]

It's a cash-strapped PTE making a logical decision about operating a new train fleet.

The difference being in most of the last 5 years Southern has actually paid money to the DfT and therefore does nor particularly need to reduce costs.

Fares are going up, staffing is going down, profits to the government are going up. The government have spent £50m on this dispute in the meantime our council tax is going up as government reduce council grants due to no money.

Well in that case why can they afford to waste £50 m on this dispute?

 

[absolutelymilk]

The Gatwick Express 387 dispute was "solved" after the court case - this current dispute is unrelated. As for when and what is going DOO, it's a staggered approach over several months and is for every line that isn't operated by either class 171 or 313 units - which can't be converted to DOO. SarahJ posted the routes would be going over to DOO this week, and I think that either she or someone else in the know has posted when other services have gone over, but they've rather been lost in amongst the rest of this discussion.

Thanks, does anyone know a rough timescale for when all non-171/313 routes will go over?

 

[yorkie]

So last night we went to No 30 James St, Liverpool and caught the 23.09 to Lime St and then the 23.38 to Piccadilly.

James St of course has a special relevance doesn't it. There were half a dozen people including events management agency people carefully sending down one lift at a time to restrict numbers on platforms. We had to queue for quite a while watching the well disciplined denizens of Liverpool "complying" with staff instructions and pushing in left right and centre.

As we were on a Loop platform we didn't see the Wirral platform - but from the number of people pushing in, drunk, refusing to listen to orders, etc, etc, it would have been interesting to see how some of these desk jockeys would have regarded the situation in real life.

Then we got to Lime St! There was an initial queue but it soon descended into an unruly drunk melee around the barrier with those who were sober enough to queue challenging the latecomers, while staff were notable by their absence and the police kept a distant watch but did nothing to keep order.

When a five car set arrived at P 8 a mad rush ensued and it was every man - or woman - for themselves. Eventually, wedged to the doors, we departed. Sure enough team rivalry broke out and fight started between rugby league fans of Warrington and Widnes. Friends tried to keep the two hotheads apart and reduce it to rival singing but at Widnes both parties decamped and a full scale battle started on the dark and unstaffed platform. No police had travelled on the train so anything could have happened, and from the bang on the bodywork as one of them went down next to where I was sitting I am glad I don't have his head today.

One man operation - safe - As if!!!!

It isn't - it never will be, and only desk bound button pushers would ever suggest it is.

I live in the real world, call it out for what it is, and wonder why, last night, I left the car in Manchester and used public transport! No-one who didn't have to would do it by choice!

What do you expect a Guard to do in those circumstances?

You say staff and police were present at James St and Lime St but people still wouldn't comply with instructions.

I am unsure what you expect to happen at Widnes, and what a Guard could do if people alighting from the train decide to have a fight on the platform.