Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Matt Taylor]

The fishbowl on SWT Desiros is great, people can find me at any time but it also gives me a secure spot for my kit. The only time you'll find me in the cab is when the train is too busy to patrol or in anticipation of a station stop where it might be the best spot to dispatch from. I can't speak for my colleagues as I don't know how they work but I do know that SWT spent quite a bit in modifiying the 455s so there was at least two guard operating panels in each coach, whether or not they are used isn't something I know as I spend almost zero time on 455s.

 

[Chester1]

People don't know the government are behind the dispute, so it's not surprising people feel the government should intervene. That's why it's important that aslef get this out there, if the rmt aren't willing to do so. Ultimately it was the DFT/government who decided to make this political.



I just do not believe a government would spend 50000000 on a dispute if it was only about opening the doors and changing the name of a job title. It just does not make any sense to me. They're is definitely more to it and i'm convinced it's about removing union membership as per peter wilkinson wanting a punch up with the unions.

I don't think it is about removing union membership but about keeping the unions away from policy and politics. The RMT is very left wing and is utterly opposed to nearly everything the Tories try to do, its leadership general political outlook seems to be something similar to Labours 1983 manifesto. Thats great if you want everything nationalised etc, not so great if you don't. The Tories have deliberately picked a fight over a concession not a franchise and over an issue that they think the unions cant get popular support over. Also, they do not want to fund a new line to Brighton therefore any long term transfer of traffic to other modes of transport won't bother the government. I have sympathy over the issue of DOO on Southern (I think it will be fine on Merseyrail though) but I think the RMT has walked straight into a trap. I doubt ASLEF will have the stomach for very large scale industrial action (i.e. weeks or months).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The unions were always doomed to fail with GTR for no other reason than the drivers were already driving DOO and had it in their contracts and agreed.

It will be interesting to see what happens when a TOC with no DOO at all, and whose drivers do not have DOO in their contracts and have no agreements at all in place in respect of DOO, tries to implement it.

On Southern the drivers couldn't really refuse to drive DOO, however much they dislike it, I suspect.

On Northern, say, it will be very different entirely. No DOO already. No existing agreements. Starting completely from scratch will be a different ball game entirely. And in the Northern ITT it said that the franchise holder will bear the cost of any industrial action, and not the DfT like on Southern.

 

[Chester1]

The unions were always doomed to fail with GTR for no other reason than the drivers were already driving DOO and had it in their contracts and agreed.

It will be interesting to see what happens when a TOC with no DOO at all, and whose drivers do not have DOO in their contracts and have no agreements at all in place in respect of DOO, tries to implement it.

On Southern the drivers couldn't really refuse to drive DOO, however much they dislike it, I suspect.

On Northern, say, it will be very different entirely. No DOO already. No existing agreements. Starting completely from scratch will be a different ball game entirely. And in the Northern ITT it said that the franchise holder will bear the cost of any industrial action, and not the DfT like on Southern.

I thought Northern had already agreed a ScotRail style DCO compromise?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I thought Northern had already agreed a ScotRail style DCO compromise?

Nope.

 

[74A]

Well strike or no strike. Southern are pushing ahead:
DOO on these routes from next week.

Mon: Arun Valley. Horsham to Bognor
Wed. Brighton/Haywards Heath - Littlehampton/Bognor

Thats because the strike is not about DOO. ASLEF are striking because they say GTR should not introduce more DOO without their agreement.

They can't strike over DOO because the court said it would not be a valid dispute as they operate trains DOO already. Thats why they lost the court case about 12 car trains on Gatwick Express.

 

[Degsi00]

Posted twice in error

 

[Degsi00]

They can't strike over DOO because the court said it would not be a valid dispute as they operate trains DOO already. Thats why they lost the court case about 12 car trains on Gatwick Express.

No, they lost the court case because the judge found that Gatex had no prior agreement over DOO.
In fact, he said he would expect Industrial Action over the Southern dispute on DOO, to which he'd leave it to Union and Company to settle.

 

[HH]

It will be interesting to see what happens when a TOC with no DOO at all, and whose drivers do not have DOO in their contracts and have no agreements at all in place in respect of DOO, tries to implement it.

South West Metro services would be my guess. Those will particularly exercise DfT and the trains are old enough to be worth replacing. Not sure what the position is with Class 707s, but the bidders do not appear to be tied to using them.

5.8.33 (e) Initiatives to improve train service operations in ways that will generate long-term passenger benefits or operational improvements that will continue to accrue after the end of the Franchise Term. This could include the implementation of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO). Where DCO is proposed, the Department would require the franchisee to undertake appropriate consultation (with passengers and the workforce) including about supporting the continual development of the professional skills of on-train staff, in particular in relation to the onboard customer service passengers attach most value to.

5.9.10 Any new-build rolling stock must be fitted with the equipment necessary to enable the trains to be operated in Driver Only Operation (DOO) in Passenger mode.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Wouldn't matter anyway mate. Many people here think the thoughts of people who actually do the job are irrelevant anyway. Apparently you can't comment unless you are a safety expert. Of course that doesn't stop them then commenting mind you.

We have all noticed that. One of the reasons I hardly post anymore. Obviously armchair experts are so much more knowledgable than those who actually work on the Trains day to day.

 

[infobleep]

Once you have a set of circumstances that trains can run without an OBS it becomes a slippery slope. The sickness line I don't buy as it gives GTR a license having the very bare minimum with no spares or covers. Like Dave has mentioned several times to Carlisle now, GTR have gone against local agreements in the past and their reputation for upholding agreements is ruined beyond the point of no return. Look at the reason ASLEF are now out on strike, primarily caused because GTR introduced a different working practice on the Horsham line with no consultation. Instead they ran off to the courts several times to get an injunction instead of negotiation.

GTR are seeking natural wastage in this OBS grade. One of Horton's reports commissioned by the RSSB suggested it as a way forward. Don't replace the staff. If trains can run without an OBS then that's the nail in the coffin.

There are massive concerns from drivers over how DOO is getting out of hand and the safety implications of how crap the equipment actually is. Even Sky News has now picked up on it http://news.sky.com/story/southern-...ke-because-they-fear-killing-someone-10696036

Finally a news report about the issue in hand rather than who controls the doors. Taken quiet sometime to get to this point, unless I've missed something.

Qonsee if any other news outlets will pick up on it, now a rival has.

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[dgl]

Ian Hislop described the situation well on HIGNFY last night:
https://youtu.be/OV7rZchYZao?t=697

 

[northwichcat]

I thought Northern had already agreed a ScotRail style DCO compromise?

Nope.

The Northern franchise agreements specifies the franchise must do everything it can to ensure a member of franchise staff accompanies the driver on all DCO services. Isn't that the same as Scotrail or has Scotrail been amended to say that a service must be cancelled if the second member of staff is unavailable?

And in the Northern ITT it said that the franchise holder will bear the cost of any industrial action, and not the DfT like on Southern.

Which is why the agreement includes DCO not full DOO. The bidders weren't happy to bid on the basis of full DOO and being liable for any industrial action so full DOO was dismissed at the consultation stage.

 

[Goldfish62]

tsr: It's interesting how those expectations have been when compared with European railways, specifically DB, SNCF and SBB, none of which have had any guard accommodation on most trains for years. The guard typically just wanders around the saloon, dispatching from passenger doors, and if he wants a rest just takes a passenger seat. Even where he does get dedicated accommodation e.g. on overnight trains it's normally just one normal compartment at the end of a coach.

When I was on an ICE recently between Berlin and Köln the guard brought my lunch to my seat. Shortly after he despatched the train at Wolfsburg.

 

[northwichcat]

Thats because the strike is not about DOO. ASLEF are striking because they say GTR should not introduce more DOO without their agreement.

They can't strike over DOO because the court said it would not be a valid dispute as they operate trains DOO already. Thats why they lost the court case about 12 car trains on Gatwick Express.

Given DOO dates back to when BR were running the trains I don't see how the unions can object to new DOO for any route operated by any franchise unless different circumstances apply e.g. a different type of rolling stock makes DOO less safe to implement than on the routes it's already been implemented on.

 

[NSEFAN]

On a lighter note, I have just heard an announcement regarding the cancellation of the Southern WCML service at West Brompton, with the cancellation reason due to "road vehicle striking a bridge". I wonder if someone searched for "strike" in the delay attribution list.

 

[Carlisle]

has Scotrail been amended to say that a service must be cancelled if the second member of staff is unavailable?

No it still allows DOO if no ticket examiner is available, but the newly electrified routes will all have to retain traditional guards as the recent agreement only permits drivers to release the doors as they do on Voyagers etc

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The Northern franchise agreements specifies the franchise must do everything it can to ensure a member of franchise staff accompanies the driver on all DCO services. Isn't that the same as Scotrail or has Scotrail been amended to say that a service must be cancelled if the second member of staff is unavailable?



Which is why the agreement includes DCO not full DOO. The bidders weren't happy to bid on the basis of full DOO and being liable for any industrial action so full DOO was dismissed at the consultation stage.

DCO and DOO are exactly the same thing. There is no difference. The Northern franchise says that x% of trains must be capable of being operated by the driver alone, without the need for any other franchise employee. That is DOO. This is not the same as the Scotrail agreement which was to retain Guards, but Drivers open doors and Guards close.

The Strathclyde Manning Agreement is DOO but with a commitment to roster a ticket collector on every train, but the train can (and does) run without anybody on board if there wasn't anybody available. This is essentially what Northern has to do, except that there don't appear to be any financial or other penalties should they not provide the on board staff member, which I believe is different to the SPTE agreement.

 

[Lynford1976]

Ian Hislop described the situation well on HIGNFY last night:
https://youtu.be/OV7rZchYZao?t=697

No he didn't.

Southern have not been 'useless for as long as anyone can remember'. They were actually quite good once, before the current problems. A definite improvement on Connex.

Reading these pages, I think people have forgotten who the original MD was when SouthCentral/Southern took over from Connex. Don't recall too many complaints about 'Charlie Horton' then?

Unfortunately a lot of the facts about the dispute have been lost under a pile of nastiness and vitriol. Mr. Hislop's rant justifies my decision to stop Private Eye because of the misinformation that was being produced in there.

 

[northwichcat]

DCO and DOO are exactly the same thing. There is no difference. The Northern franchise says that x% of trains must be capable of being operated by the driver alone, without the need for any other franchise employee. That is DOO. This is not the same as the Scotrail agreement which was to retain Guards, but Drivers open doors and Guards close.

As far as passengers are concerned DCO and DOO are completely different. DOO can mean no visible member of staff on board while DCO can mean a member of staff on board more visible then when it's operated by a driver+guard. A number of passengers are under the impression many Northern services don't still have guards (source: BBC News report where they asked passengers at Manchester Piccadilly station) so they might even see DCO as an improvement!

If the Scotrail franchise agreement was to retain guards and have drivers opening the doors why did the RMT tell us they planned to remove guards and called industrial action over it: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/doodco-abellio-scotrail180716/ ? If you mean a separate agreement was later drawn up between Scotrail and the unions then you're comparing apples with bananas.

 

[Legzr1]

Ian Hislop described the situation well on HIGNFY last night:
https://youtu.be/OV7rZchYZao?t=697

Agreed.

 

[HowardGWR]

I wouldn't watch that HIGNFY programme if you paid me, so I don't know what Hislop said, but it would undoubtedly be a pompous rant, which is why I stopped watching it at least 8 years ago, IIRC. He ceased to be funny and just made political comments, such as you and I could. That's neither comedy nor satire.

It would not surprise me, when this is concluded, that Charles Horton becomes Sir Charles.

You scoff? Just wait and see.

 

[Dave1987]

Well HIGNFY is the one program I always watch. They actually tell it like it is with no PR spin. No one is out of bounds and no one is free from ridicule from all sides of the political spectrum.

 

[dgl]

He said basically that the only people here making money are GTR themselves, and actually running no trains makes them more money, how the contract was basically done to create a fight whilst they sit back and watch, how the government are the ones paying compensation to GTR and the passengers, and how when Chris Grayling was asked if there is anything he could do he replied, 'not my problem and there is nothing I can do' despite that being his job!

 

[wfrank]

It would not surprise me, when this is concluded, that Charles Horton becomes Sir Charles.

You scoff? Just wait and see.

I am sure Peter Wilkinson will be ennobled after a suitable wait. I have had a long think about he DOO dispute & although I have a close relative who is a driver I am sure DOO is the right thing to do from the taxpayer & public point of view. And once drivers get used to it it will just seem to be the norm & add a bit of interest to a job that I am told can ofter be dead dull & routine. Everyone likes looking at TV & screens! And after all,drivers would only be sitting in their cabs waiting for the bell from someone else otherwise. I know this will make Rmt people angry, but I agree that Horton ought to get recognised by being a Lord. He has had to put up with more than most people have to deal with in their entire lifetime. When Rmt's only ally is Jeremy Corbyn then the battle was lost a long time ago.
Happy Christmas to pro & anti DOO posters alike & the hardworking people who do the gardening on this great forum.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Fenland may be remote, but it isn't anywhere near as remote as Blea Moor, Low Row or Summit Tunnel.

if the concern on 'remoteness' is response times , norfolk is worse that parts of the north , as while you can drive unmade tracks in an 4*4 , they can't jump drainage dykes and the other canal like structures that fill the fens and broadland ( and where road routes can rountinely add 20 miles over the pedestrian or access to a boat route)

 

[Chester1]

As far as passengers are concerned DCO and DOO are completely different. DOO can mean no visible member of staff on board while DCO can mean a member of staff on board more visible then when it's operated by a driver+guard. A number of passengers are under the impression many Northern services don't still have guards (source: BBC News report where they asked passengers at Manchester Piccadilly station) so they might even see DCO as an improvement!

If the Scotrail franchise agreement was to retain guards and have drivers opening the doors why did the RMT tell us they planned to remove guards and called industrial action over it: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/doodco-abellio-scotrail180716/ ? If you mean a separate agreement was later drawn up between Scotrail and the unions then you're comparing apples with bananas.

ScotRail intially tried to introduce DOO but backed down because DOO is the DfTs pet policy not theirs and agreed to compromise and introduce DCO instead.

I very much agree that from a passengers perspective there is a huge difference betwen DOO and DCO. DOO and DCO are only the same thing if the unions back down a second time. I think there would be much more public support for the Unions if / when there are attempts to turn DCO into DOO. I think the Tories strategy is working, MerseyTravel can offer Merseyrail staff a deal securing their pay and employment until 2028 and some sort of DCO compromise for Northern will be enough to make it difficult for strikes to gain allot of public support. While I think Northern would be fine having DCO for 2-4 coaches, I can see services such as Preston-Bolton-Manchester becoming 8 coach services and that does concern me, even with dispatchers at main stations.

 

[infobleep]

Well HIGNFY is the one program I always watch. They actually tell it like it is with no PR spin. No one is out of bounds and no one is free from ridicule from all sides of the political spectrum. I thought Fridays episode was one of the really really good ones.

I quite agree. Once it was mentioned o this thread I just had to watch it. Very funny.

Yes they can be over the top sometimes but that's part of the comedy.

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No, they lost the court case because the judge found that Gatex had no prior agreement over DOO.
In fact, he said he would expect Industrial Action over the Southern dispute on DOO, to which he'd leave it to Union and Company to settle.

Given he said that, even more baffling why GTR waters money on going to court not. once but twice. I'm surprised no one has put a guess o how much it cost them? Someone on here must know.

The union cost guestimates were put up fairly quickly I seem to remember.

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People don't know the government are behind the dispute, so it's not surprising people feel the government should intervene. That's why it's important that aslef get this out there, if the rmt aren't willing to do so. Ultimately it was the DFT/government who decided to make this political.



I just do not believe a government would spend 50000000 on a dispute if it was only about opening the doors and changing the name of a job title. It just does not make any sense to me. They're is definitely more to it and i'm convinced it's about removing union membership as per peter wilkinson wanting a punch up with the unions.

Well if they saw Havw I Got News For You last night they might now know this!

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[Solent&Wessex]

ScotRail intially tried to introduce DOO but backed down because DOO is the DfTs pet policy not theirs and agreed to compromise and introduce DCO instead.

I very much agree that from a passengers perspective there is a huge difference betwen DOO and DCO. DOO and DCO are only the same thing if the unions back down a second time. I think there would be much more public support for the Unions if / when there are attempts to turn DCO into DOO. I think the Tories strategy is working, MerseyTravel can offer Merseyrail staff a deal securing their pay and employment until 2028 and some sort of DCO compromise for Northern will be enough to make it difficult for strikes to gain allot of public support. While I think Northern would be fine having DCO for 2-4 coaches, I can see services such as Preston-Bolton-Manchester becoming 8 coach services and that does concern me, even with dispatchers at main stations.

DO & DCO are only different if the onboard staff are actually provided, which of course there is no guarantee of. And unless there is actually some penalty in the franchise for failing to staff trains with the new OBS (or whatever they get called), then there is little incentive for the TOC to make much effort. And when finances in a TOC get tight, the non-essential fluffy roles like this are the first to go.

And lets not forget that the current Southern method of working for the OBS on the new DCO trains is for them to go to the doors at every station and insert their key into the doors while they do platform duties. So therefore they can't actually spend any more time in the passenger saloon and still have to go to the doors at every station, and one with a suitable key switch, so currently not achieving one of the stated plus points of removing the Guard, which was to stop the onboard person having to go to the doors.

Also, for some routes at some times then the reason that the Guard isn't seen is because they have been told by their employer to keep in the cab where it is safe, rather than risk their own personal safety in the train with the rabble.

Whatever you call it, history has shown that as soon as there is no longer a requirement to have somebody on the train, then they soon disappear. Even Scotrail, if I recall correctly, got in bother in recent years for failing to meet the targets under the Strathclyde Manning Agreement.

 

[infobleep]

Nick Abbot on LBC radio is discussing the Southern dispute. If anyone with more knowledge wants to ring in put the argument for keeping the guards in their current role - or for the changes, if unlikely me you want the changes, then do.

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