Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ComUtoR]

Not sure I quite understand that. Why would GTR go through all this stress, and run at a loss, when most of the benefits of the new way of working (particularly if fears are correct and staffing is reduced) will accrue to the next franchisee and not to them?

I would say because they tend do do anything they can to help secure the next franchise. The next potential franchise for TSGN/GTR is huge and may be around for a long time so being the incumbent and being in the DfT's good books is very beneficial.


Another Govia TOC is about to potentially get another franchise extension.

 

[physics34]

Not sure I quite understand that. Why would GTR go through all this stress, and run at a loss, when most of the benefits of the new way of working (particularly if fears are correct and staffing is reduced) will accrue to the next franchisee and not to them?

theyve already been paid the fee to run the franchise/management contract....

they are saving money on wages cos of the strikes and overtime ban

Their shareprice (GoAhead) hasnt been affected

They are "in bed" with the DfT, almost best friends and this will help them towards future franchises.....

Peter Wilkinson used to work for GoVia

The Chief Exec of Southern is on the RSSB.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Remind me, how did that end when the government of the day was run by a woman of strong beliefs.

Remind me how Tory voters there were then and indeed now in the miners heartlands?

How many Tory voters are there in the Southern franchise area?

Lewes has until recently been a LibDem seat now Tory, might explain why Maria Caulfield is less keen to follow party line and is now silent

 

[Deepgreen]

SWT scrapped their DOO plans a few days before any industrial action had begun, so non of the strikes they've actually had in their history can be blamed on DOO

Did SWT abandon DOO of their own volition (if so, why?), or did the threat of strikes precipitate it? I strongly suspect the latter.

 

[GT4E]

Is there not a law of unintended consequences coming into play here? Clearly a lot of the conductors on Southern have decided to leave or take on other opportunities as they do not see much future in this new role. The management clearly do not have nearly enough of these new OBS staff to fulfill what they say they were going to do. Clearly you need someone with some degree of aptitude to fulfill the role but those types of people tend to look for jobs and careers with some type of longevity which these roles don't appear to have. Also if the role of a Conductor is to be consigned to the history books then how are you going to attract the right type of people with the relevant aptitude in the mean time?

 

[FordFocus]

Not sure I quite understand that. Why would GTR go through all this stress, and run at a loss, when most of the benefits of the new way of working (particularly if fears are correct and staffing is reduced) will accrue to the next franchisee and not to them?

Despite all the money lost in the system, Govia are expected to make a profit on the lifetime of the franchise. They were paid a rumoured amount of £2bn over the life time of the contract to run it. They don't lose ticket revenue as it all goes to HM Treasury, they don't have to pay drivers who go on strike that day, the trains that don't move won't be subject to mileage or track charges so they've saved money. The list goes on....

In theory if drivers remained on strike for quite some time it could be one of the most profitable franchises in the country because of the unique way it was funded. God bless the conservative principles towards the railway.

 

[hwl]

I would say because they tend do do anything they can to help secure the next franchise. The next potential franchise for TSGN/GTR is huge and may be around for a long time so being the incumbent and being in the DfT's good books is very beneficial.


Another Govia TOC is about to potentially get another franchise extension.

The DfT franchise timetable was already updated in late December with the extra 6months but nothing has been announced yet as far as I can see...

 

[ComUtoR]

The DfT franchise timetable was already updated in late December with the extra 6months but nothing has been announced yet as far as I can see...

I heard it announced on local radio a few days ago. I think it was in my local paper too so I'll have a butchers and post a link if I can find it.

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/southeastern-to-secure-six-month-franchise-118276/

Southeastern is set to secure a six-month extension to its franchise to run train services across Kent.

The proposed extension - taking the contract to December 2018 - has been put forward by the Department for Transport and is aimed at minimising the potential for disruption.

The current contract is scheduled to end in June 2018 at a time when key timetable changes are due to come in, which also coincides with major upheaval in the train network.

 

[BestWestern]

Not sure I quite understand that. Why would GTR go through all this stress, and run at a loss, when most of the benefits of the new way of working (particularly if fears are correct and staffing is reduced) will accrue to the next franchisee and not to them?

Because GTR are being paid to do what they're told by the government. They have a 'management contract', not a standard franchise. There is no financial risk, they get paid their fee and the government covers the cost of the strikes and general chaos they cause. Having said that, it may well be of concern to Go Ahead (GTR's parent company) that, due to the government having massively misjudged just how big a mess this would make and the resistance being far greater than they were expecting, group profits are being hit. But, having signed the contract to dance with the devil and play DFT henchman, I would imagine they are stuck with it and will just have to accept their end of the deal.

 

[FordFocus]

Because GTR are being paid to do what they're told by the government. They have a 'management contract', not a standard franchise. There is no financial risk, they get paid their fee and the government covers the cost of the strikes and general chaos they cause. Having said that, it may well be of concern to Go Ahead (GTR's parent company) that, due to the government having massively misjudged just how big a mess this would make and the resistance being far greater than they were expecting, group profits are being hit. But, having signed the contract to dance with the devil and play DFT henchman, I would imagine they are stuck with it and will just have to accept their end of the deal.

It's alright though as the DfT will give Southeastern an extension to cover any profit lost for Govia. :roll:

 

[Robertj21a]

It's alright though as the DfT will give Southeastern an extension to cover any profit lost for Govia. :roll:

In due course, they'll probably be able to, somehow, keep Southern as well after all the problems they've had to suffer !

 

[Tetchytyke]

Having said that, it may well be of concern to Go Ahead (GTR's parent company) that, due to the government having massively misjudged just how big a mess this would make and the resistance being far greater than they were expecting, group profits are being hit.

GoVia are lucky, if you can call it that, that they use separate brands for all their businesses. So the problems are at "Southern", so customers with all their other companies don't associate them with the FUBAR in the south east. The people of Brighton don't even associate their bus company with it. There's something to be said for regionalisation.

As for the DOO dispute, I think the DfT expected the RMT to be out in force, but they can be dealt with. They have been dealt with, the OBS role is in place. I don't think they expected ASLEF to keep their promise when they said that they would fight DOO imposition, given that ASLEF have previously agreed to it. I think, as much as anything, they have the CPS to thank for that.

 

[fredk]

GoVia are lucky, if you can call it that, that they use separate brands for all their businesses. So the problems are at "Southern", so customers with all their other companies don't associate them with the FUBAR in the south east. The people of Brighton don't even associate their bus company with it. There's something to be said for regionalisation.

As for the DOO dispute, I think the DfT expected the RMT to be out in force, but they can be dealt with. They have been dealt with, the OBS role is in place. I don't think they expected ASLEF to keep their promise when they said that they would fight DOO imposition, given that ASLEF have previously agreed to it. I think, as much as anything, they have the CPS to thank for that.

I don't think the use of different brands was 'luck', rather a calculated decision made exactly to prevent tarnishing their reputation through actions in one particular place.

In addition to this it creates confusion and passengers don't know where to direct their anger or who really runs their trains.

 

[Deepgreen]

GoVia are lucky, if you can call it that, that they use separate brands for all their businesses. So the problems are at "Southern", so customers with all their other companies don't associate them with the FUBAR in the south east. The people of Brighton don't even associate their bus company with it. There's something to be said for regionalisation.

As for the DOO dispute, I think the DfT expected the RMT to be out in force, but they can be dealt with. They have been dealt with, the OBS role is in place. I don't think they expected ASLEF to keep their promise when they said that they would fight DOO imposition, given that ASLEF have previously agreed to it. I think, as much as anything, they have the CPS to thank for that.

I was also surprised not to see Charles Horton honoured in the NY list. Maybe a knighthood next year for services to transport...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was also surprised not to see Charles Horton honoured in the NY list. Maybe a knighthood next year for services to transport...

Not when Philip Rutnam, the DfT Permanent Secretary, is still waiting for his.
The big transport fiascos (West Coast franchising, GW electrification) have bitten deeply, and on his watch.

 

[AlterEgo]

BBC reporting on their live news ticker that the RMT have taken up an offer of meeting Chris Grayling for talks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38520776

The RMT rail union has said it will "take up an offer of direct talks with Transport Secretary Chris Grayling" to solve the Southern guards dispute.

In a letter, RMT general secretary Mick Cash said he was "happy to meet you... to discuss these pressing matters".

The Department for Transport is still to respond to the RMT's announcement.

 

[BestWestern]

BBC reporting on their live news ticker that the RMT have taken up an offer of meeting Chris Grayling for talks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38520776

Sadly, Failing Grayling the Bike Basher will offer nothing of any value. Merely lining up the next cheap "we tried but the unions won't negotiate" soundbite.

 

[KTHV]

GoVia are lucky, if you can call it that, that they use separate brands for all their businesses. So the problems are at "Southern", so customers with all their other companies don't associate them with the FUBAR in the south east. The people of Brighton don't even associate their bus company with it. There's something to be said for regionalisation.

Indeed - I'd wager 95% of the regular commuters in the West Midlands area are also unaware that Govia also own London Midland

 

[Class377/5]

ORR report into DOO extensions

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...driver-only-operation-report-january-2017.pdf

 

[infobleep]

BBC reporting on their live news ticker that the RMT have taken up an offer of meeting Chris Grayling for talks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38520776

How is such a thing possible when it's not Chris Grayling's place to get involved in such a dispute.

I wonder if Chatham House rules will be respected.

May be I suggest the RMT record the full exchange and if Mr Grayling doesn't respect Chatham House rules, if agreed to, then they release the full audio recording of the meeting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ORR report into DOO extensions

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...driver-only-operation-report-january-2017.pdf

What is the reason class 377 units were chosen?

 

[Domh245]

ORR report into DOO extensions

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...driver-only-operation-report-january-2017.pdf

In summary of the report:

Visibility of the PTI is generally OK.
Some stations aren't bright enough which gave the following interesting snippet: "GTR-Southern has given us a categorical assurance that no trains will operate under DOO conditions until all stations meet the necessary lighting standards"
ORR are quite content with the driver watching the screens up to 4mph before they turn off.
The in-cab CCTV images are adequate but they have recommended improvement.
"ORR has also identified that it would clearly expect GTR-Southern to better plan for and notify staff and ensure their competency ahead of introducing DOO dispatch on routes. We will be following up on progress of this with ASLEF and GTR-Southern on an ongoing basis."

As a bit of an afterthought, how long does it take to accelerate to 4mph, and how many times would the CCTV images refresh in that time?

 

[hwl]

What is the reason class 377 units were chosen?

That is what Southern are using for new DOO...

 

[jopsuk]

ASLEF have responded to the ORR report

Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, today responded to the ORR report on DOO. Mick said: ‘Despite what Southern Railways is disingenuously claiming, the report from the Office of Rail and Road does not give driver only operation a clean bill of health. It doesn’t say it is safe, merely that it can be safe.
‘You will notice that Ian Prosser, HM Chief Inspector of Railways, is careful to qualify his remarks and say “with suitable equipment, proper procedures, and competent staff in place” it can be a method of working. And, indeed, Ian goes on to say that the ORR has made a long list of recommendations for further improvements because they fear it is not safe. Those recommendations, the company concedes, are not yet in place.
‘The ORR says, on visibility [point 8] that “not all stations meet this requirement”. It also says [point 11] that it has identified stations that suffer from dangerous overcrowding and “the viewing corridor will be difficult for the driver to observe and carry out the train safety check”.
‘The company seems to expect drivers to operate trains which it knows are unsafe –because it concedes the work the ORR wants done has not yet been completed –which proves, yet again, that this is all about putting profit before passenger safety.
‘The truth is that passengers, every time they are asked, want a second safety-critical person on their trains. On board to help the elderly, the young, and the disabled. The company, which doesn’t seem to care what passengers to think, want to take us one step closer to losing that second role.’
Mick added: ‘Comparisons with Thameslink – always being made by the company – are meaningless because Thameslink trains have station staff dispatch on every platform while Southern does not. In the Southern area, many stations are unmanned, or undermanned.
‘The industry’s approach is also spectacularly inconsistent. New rolling stock on four more franchises – Great Western, East Coast, Greater Anglia and TransPennine Express – has been procured with no provision for DOO. Because they know it’s not safe.’

They might want to remove that GA reference? The Bombardier units (to replace the 317, 321 and 360 fleets) will certainly be DOO, as will the Stansted Express Stadler EMUs. Which will be identical other than seating arrangements to the Norwich IC Stadler EMUs and both fleets will be able to work both routes if needed, as far as I've worked out. So the Norwich sets will probably have DOO equipment/capability. I guess the rural route Stadler Bi-Modes might not be built DOO capable? But with (probably) the same cab as the Stadler EMUs I wouldn't be so sure.

 

[Carlisle]

ASLEF have responded to the ORR report



They might want to remove that GA reference? The Bombardier units (to replace the 317, 321 and 360 fleets) will certainly be DOO, as will the Stansted Express Stadler EMUs. Which will be identical other than seating arrangements to the Norwich IC Stadler EMUs and both fleets will be able to work both routes if needed, as far as I've worked out. So the Norwich sets will probably have DOO equipment/capability. I guess the rural route Stadler Bi-Modes might not be built DOO capable? But with (probably) the same cab as the Stadler EMUs I wouldn't be so sure.

Plus the new order GWR and VTEC fleets mentioned in the ASLEF statement will also have DOO equipment/capability

 

[Steve Harris]

A 'piece' has just been broadcast on the One Show on BBC1 about DOO and interviewed Mr Cash and had quotes from ORR etc

Also mentioned about DOO possibly going to Merseyside, London Midlands etc.

 

[OliverS]

ASLEF have responded to the ORR report



They might want to remove that GA reference? The Bombardier units (to replace the 317, 321 and 360 fleets) will certainly be DOO, as will the Stansted Express Stadler EMUs. Which will be identical other than seating arrangements to the Norwich IC Stadler EMUs and both fleets will be able to work both routes if needed, as far as I've worked out. So the Norwich sets will probably have DOO equipment/capability. I guess the rural route Stadler Bi-Modes might not be built DOO capable? But with (probably) the same cab as the Stadler EMUs I wouldn't be so sure.

They might also want to go on to say that the ORR have concluded that GTR have implemented it safely and those improvements mentioned are above and beyond the statutory level for it to be considered safe. I.e. the safety argument about what GTR are proposing is now dead. It might be that the Unions will continue to insist that it is just sleeping but that report basically says that any safety argument has shuffled of this mortal coil.

Now as with all safety points care needs to be taken to ensure that standards don't slip below the observed level, but at this point DOO in the Arun Valley is safe. Fortunately the ASLEF H&S reps are there to do that scrutiny.

 

[jopsuk]

Plus the new order GWR and VTEC fleets mentioned in the ASLEF statement will also have DOO equipment/capability

Which means it should be trivial for the TPE Class 802s to have it as well. I'd be surprised at this point if the TPE Class 397 Civity (CAF) units don't have DCO equipment. I would however be surprised if the "Mark 5" coaches do, as that would require equipment in the cabs of the Class 68s.

 

[infobleep]

That is what Southern are using for new DOO...

What about other classes of train. I thought they were being used for DOO? Are the 377 the worst model being used for DOO?

 

[6Gman]

In summary of the report:

ORR are quite content with the driver watching the screens up to 4mph before they turn off.

As a bit of an afterthought, how long does it take to accelerate to 4mph, and how many times would the CCTV images refresh in that time?

So the ORR is content that drivers should be looking at screens showing the view behind them, as they are progressing forward? Not sure I am. Especially, for example, where there's a level crossing a few yards off the platform end ...

 

[infobleep]

If DOO is safe and I'm still not fully convinced, then it at least sat highlights how poor GTRs change management practices are. A report such as this should have been completed in advance.

They clearly need a new change management project manager, assuming they even have one.