ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Actually, no. The magistrates will decide who pays when it reaches them. - It's called a Bail & Funding decision (although bail isn't applicable in these cases).
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Southern Railway prosecutions
- Thread starter flymo
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Actually, no. The magistrates will decide who pays when it reaches them. - It's called a Bail & Funding decision (although bail isn't applicable in these cases).
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R
RailUK Forums
Im not confused, but thanks for the concern.
Southern staff & Gatwick Express staff wear different uniforms & the train livery is unique to each brand. They are treated as separate entities.
The passenger in question had NOT purchased ANY ticket for the journey & travelled on a Southern service, so this Southern only ticket argument is meaningless.
Call me old fashioned but I think people should pay before travelling where facilities are available, if they dont then I call it 'pay when challenged' the most common form of fare evasion & mostly practised by people in suits who should know better.
Southern staff & Gatwick Express staff wear different uniforms & the train livery is unique to each brand. They are treated as separate entities.
The passenger in question had NOT purchased ANY ticket for the journey & travelled on a Southern service, so this Southern only ticket argument is meaningless.
Call me old fashioned but I think people should pay before travelling where facilities are available, if they dont then I call it 'pay when challenged' the most common form of fare evasion & mostly practised by people in suits who should know better.
You can claim they are "separate entities" all you like but it has already been explained to you what the situation with regards Southern/Gatwick Express is. It is unclear if you are disagreeing with that, or not.
As for buying on board, you can think what you want, but the reality is that many TOCs do in fact allow people to buy on board, and you are not justified in making libellous claims against people who do so. There are a small number of TOCs who allow discounted and off peak fares on board, such as the now defunct Gatwick Express and WSMR, plus Grand Central, and a much bigger number of TOCs who will sell non-discounted fares on board such as East Coast, Virgin etc. Southern have, so far, continued the previous practice of the former Gatwick Express TOC, by allowing the full range of fares to be bought on board the former Gatwick Express services, however it is misleading for customers to see posters advertising that discounts are available on board and not be told that this in fact only applies to customers travelling in one direction on certain trains with certain branding, yet in the other direction it doesn't apply even on a train where it did apply on the leg of the journey from Victoria.
Are you making an libellous allegation against the person who won the court case, or is it a baseless rant, as it's unclear to me?
It does seem to me that you and your friend have difficulty accepting the Court's decision, and difficulty accepting that Gatwick Express is no longer a TOC. Are either of these assertions the case or am I under the wrong impression?
If you can clarify, that would be much appreciated.
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I would take the appropriate documentation.
If requested to pay a fare, I would argue my case. If the conductor insisted, I would obtain an Unpaid Fare Notice, and would refuse to pay it, protest to Passenger Focus, the DfT ec, and if necessary let it go to court. (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice)
As for buying on board, you can think what you want, but the reality is that many TOCs do in fact allow people to buy on board, and you are not justified in making libellous claims against people who do so. There are a small number of TOCs who allow discounted and off peak fares on board, such as the now defunct Gatwick Express and WSMR, plus Grand Central, and a much bigger number of TOCs who will sell non-discounted fares on board such as East Coast, Virgin etc. Southern have, so far, continued the previous practice of the former Gatwick Express TOC, by allowing the full range of fares to be bought on board the former Gatwick Express services, however it is misleading for customers to see posters advertising that discounts are available on board and not be told that this in fact only applies to customers travelling in one direction on certain trains with certain branding, yet in the other direction it doesn't apply even on a train where it did apply on the leg of the journey from Victoria.
Are you making an libellous allegation against the person who won the court case, or is it a baseless rant, as it's unclear to me?
It does seem to me that you and your friend have difficulty accepting the Court's decision, and difficulty accepting that Gatwick Express is no longer a TOC. Are either of these assertions the case or am I under the wrong impression?
If you can clarify, that would be much appreciated.
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I personally believe that, yes.
I would take the appropriate documentation.
If requested to pay a fare, I would argue my case. If the conductor insisted, I would obtain an Unpaid Fare Notice, and would refuse to pay it, protest to Passenger Focus, the DfT ec, and if necessary let it go to court. (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice)
NR Conditions of Carriage said:
NR Conditions of Carriage said:
gatwickexpress website said:
gatwickexpress website said:
If Southern are extending Gatwick Express branded trains to Brighton, and telling people they can buy onboard - why would you expect to be given a PF for going to Brighton?
Shouldn't they sell tickets onboard? If they don't, do you have to get off and buy one at a station and then go back on the next train?
If nobody had done so by Gatwick and from then on the train switches magically into a Southern service (do they remove all the GatEx livery and signs on the train in motion?!) then the person should be able to buy it at the destination, with any discounts applicable.
I like the idea of asking to see ID if/when staff insist that the service isn't run by Southern!
Shouldn't they sell tickets onboard? If they don't, do you have to get off and buy one at a station and then go back on the next train?
If nobody had done so by Gatwick and from then on the train switches magically into a Southern service (do they remove all the GatEx livery and signs on the train in motion?!) then the person should be able to buy it at the destination, with any discounts applicable.
I like the idea of asking to see ID if/when staff insist that the service isn't run by Southern!
As I understand it - the rather bizzare situation is that the train runs Victoria - Gatwick as Gatwick Express, hence as per the signs you can buy your Victoria to Gatwick ticket on board. However, on arrival at Gatwick it essentially becomes a Southern service from Gatwick to Brighton and penalty fares come into play.
This is made even more complicated by the fact that I believe (but may be wrong) (as suggested above) that normal Victoria - Brighton (both directions) tickets are valid on the trains that run to/from Brighton at peak times, however they would not be valid taking Gatwick Express at non peak times and changing at Gatwick (although this wouldnt be efficient anyway).
This is all especially confusing when Southern are using the "Express" branded 442s to run services completely unrelated to Gatwick Express at times, (just the standard Brighton Express which stops at East Croydon for instance I seem to see relatively frequently as a 442)
I just hope that Gatwick Express is completely got rid of as a brand (I know they tried and there was complaint from the airport owners), and replaced with services with a relatively fast stopping pattern like the current Brighton Express - something like Victoria-Clapham Junction-East Croydon-Redhill-Gatwick-Three Bridges- Haywards Heath-Brighton.
(I'm not sure if the capacity is there south of Gatwick for this though, if there isnt it would be nice if they would run as far as Three Bridges which gives better interchange opportunities).
The fact is if it was an Express branded train heading onwards to Brighton I think he is perfectly entitled to think that purchasing tickets on board was acceptable, given those signs and the branding of the train.
This is made even more complicated by the fact that I believe (but may be wrong) (as suggested above) that normal Victoria - Brighton (both directions) tickets are valid on the trains that run to/from Brighton at peak times, however they would not be valid taking Gatwick Express at non peak times and changing at Gatwick (although this wouldnt be efficient anyway).
This is all especially confusing when Southern are using the "Express" branded 442s to run services completely unrelated to Gatwick Express at times, (just the standard Brighton Express which stops at East Croydon for instance I seem to see relatively frequently as a 442)
I just hope that Gatwick Express is completely got rid of as a brand (I know they tried and there was complaint from the airport owners), and replaced with services with a relatively fast stopping pattern like the current Brighton Express - something like Victoria-Clapham Junction-East Croydon-Redhill-Gatwick-Three Bridges- Haywards Heath-Brighton.
(I'm not sure if the capacity is there south of Gatwick for this though, if there isnt it would be nice if they would run as far as Three Bridges which gives better interchange opportunities).
The fact is if it was an Express branded train heading onwards to Brighton I think he is perfectly entitled to think that purchasing tickets on board was acceptable, given those signs and the branding of the train.
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It is blatantly obvious this is an anti rail forum & no amount of facts will change your prejudiced views.
I havent come on here to debate any issues, but to allow those who form opinions based on facts to be aware that newspapers are not really the best source of facts.
I shall leave you to continue slagging off the railways.Enjoy.
I havent come on here to debate any issues, but to allow those who form opinions based on facts to be aware that newspapers are not really the best source of facts.
I shall leave you to continue slagging off the railways.Enjoy.
I think Southern should keep the Gatwick Express branding, as it serves to allow people (mainly tourists) to be reassured that they're taking the right train to/from London. But the way they're doing things now is completely silly given it's no longer like Heathrow Express, but more like the Stansted Express which I believe allows regular passengers to travel too.
If necessary, make it a requirement that tickets must be purchased before travel and have done with it. Then make it easy to buy tickets to/from London from, perhaps, a dedicated window or TVM. That would mean giving tourists penalty fares though, which probably won't go down very well.
Or sell tickets onboard between Gatwick and London but also sell tickets to those going beyond Gatwick (with full discounts as applicable). For the other way, starting at Brighton you can have the PF system as the train BEGINS with those restrictions. I can't accept you can introduce restrictions half way down the line and then try to switch name. To do that, you'd need to get everyone off the train and restart it, which would be crazy - but might just make the PF restrictions from Gatwick to Brighton work (and give the papers and forums something to laugh about).
And, this forum is NOT anti-rail. It serves to discuss rail issues and if necessary highlight such situations that actually put the rail in a bad light. Discussing the problems is only done so as to try and improve things.
If necessary, make it a requirement that tickets must be purchased before travel and have done with it. Then make it easy to buy tickets to/from London from, perhaps, a dedicated window or TVM. That would mean giving tourists penalty fares though, which probably won't go down very well.
Or sell tickets onboard between Gatwick and London but also sell tickets to those going beyond Gatwick (with full discounts as applicable). For the other way, starting at Brighton you can have the PF system as the train BEGINS with those restrictions. I can't accept you can introduce restrictions half way down the line and then try to switch name. To do that, you'd need to get everyone off the train and restart it, which would be crazy - but might just make the PF restrictions from Gatwick to Brighton work (and give the papers and forums something to laugh about).
And, this forum is NOT anti-rail. It serves to discuss rail issues and if necessary highlight such situations that actually put the rail in a bad light. Discussing the problems is only done so as to try and improve things.
paul1609
Established Member
I was under the impression that the buy on board had been dropped on Gatwick Express.
Certainly the new Southern Franchise required them to provide barriers at gawick Airport and on the Express platforms at Victoria.
Certainly the new Southern Franchise required them to provide barriers at gawick Airport and on the Express platforms at Victoria.
Really? On what evidence do you base that?
What facts are they?
Evidently. Which is a shame as that's what forums are for.
Please enlighten us of the facts then. As I asked earlier, which train did the customer catch exactly?
Can you quote which comments in particular you deem to be "slagging off" please? Thanks.
I know others have commented, but that first line was a real mouthful of tea all over the keyboard moment. It seems that the problem is that you don't like being told that your understanding of the relationship between Gatwick Express and Southern is a little out of date. The funny thing is that it is that same understanding by many ordinary travellers which is actually causing the problems. We both agree that newspapers rarely provide the full story, which is why people like yorkie have asked you to provide any new facts that you can.
If you read just about any other thread on these forums you'd see that we couldn't really be more pro rail even if we wanted to be. And in this sub-forum you'll find that there are many people who are very pro passenger where the passenger has been wrongly treated by the rail industry, plus we are often trying to work with passengers to get the best deal on fares thereby supporting the rail industry as a whole.
RJ
Established Member
You're conveniently ignoring the fact that it is advertised that you can only buy on board if travelling between Victoria and Gatwick only. I've seen for myself at Victoria that it is explained in block capitals on the departure boards, on posters by the entrance to the GX platforms and leaflets elsewhere that this is the case. Obviously if you pretend that these notices aren't there then feign ignorance then you will run into problems on the train if travelling beyond Gatwick with no ticket.
Anyone would think that some bad experience has p*ssed you off and you now consider the whole PF system is deliberately set up to scam people. Certainly not the case.
alloneword100
Member
- Joined
- 3 Dec 2010
- Messages
- 41
Does it also get announced on the train? If people were told, as the train left Gatwick heading south, that they should have a ticket, and that if they haven't they must come immediately to the conductor who is in carriage XX or be liable for a PF, then after leaving ten minutes for people to do so it would be possible to apply PFs and defend them in court.
I am very interested in what happens with someone who uses a GEX while holding a Southern Only ticket. It seems like they can't get a PF because Southern doesn't issue any on the GEX. Most that could happen is a UPFN for the full GEX fare, right? If I wasn't afraid of the effects of a prosecution on my career I would try it today.
I am not conveniently ignoring any facts, I simply don't know them. I've not seen what is said at Victoria or on the train as I haven't been on a train from there in ages - so would be happy to stand corrected (and thank you for doing so, as you've clearly been there and given information that wasn't in this thread before now). I asked on here because I don't know the facts, and was told information that didn't state how clear it is.
I would be happy to go to Brighton (as against Gatwick) to see the changes to the 442s, and test out the buy onboard policy if it was advertised as such. If it isn't advertised as such, I wouldn't try it and could come back and say 'actually, everything they're doing is totally correct and above board'.
I don't make things up. I am not out to attack the railway if it isn't deserved, so - hopefully - if I come on here ranting, it's with good cause.
I am wholeheartedly for PFs by the way, but not when they're applied incorrectly - which is far too often. I've been a victim of this, along with many others.
Exposing the flaws and loopholes will hopefully help to get things sorted, and I'd be the first to suggest we seek to increase the PF to something like £50 like on TfL.
RJ
Established Member
I was passing through Victoria today on my way to college and had a ride on 442 from Platform 13 which was on the 13:06 Brighton Express service.
Prior to boarding the train, a large poster situated on the platform states;
It would appear that those attacking the PF scheme on this service are either being selectively dismissive or are not in possession of several key facts, but choosing to launch an attack on the setup anyway. Once on board the train, I had a look at some of the publicity. Some of the posters by the doors state;
Now unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem to me that it states explicitly or implicitly that you may board the train for travel beyond Gatwick Airport without first holding a valid ticket?
Prior to boarding the train, a large poster situated on the platform states;
It would appear that those attacking the PF scheme on this service are either being selectively dismissive or are not in possession of several key facts, but choosing to launch an attack on the setup anyway. Once on board the train, I had a look at some of the publicity. Some of the posters by the doors state;
Now unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem to me that it states explicitly or implicitly that you may board the train for travel beyond Gatwick Airport without first holding a valid ticket?
That would seem completely fair and clearly marked, but why can't you get a discount with a Network Card?
Surely if you can get a discounted ticket on a normal Southern service, a service that is branded Gatwick Express for part of it (for the above mentioned reasons) surely can't exclude them?
Surely if you can get a discounted ticket on a normal Southern service, a service that is branded Gatwick Express for part of it (for the above mentioned reasons) surely can't exclude them?
RJ
Established Member
As a passenger I find it's quite vociferously advertised that you can only buy on board if travelling between London Victoria and Gatwick. It's quite actively adverstised that you need to hold a ticket if travelling beyond Gatwick before you board the train IMO.
I assume that there is similar publicity and posters at Gatwick Airport, so that it is clear to anyone arriving there and wanting to travel to Brighton on a Gatwick Express branded service, that they cannot buy tickets on board?
Can anyone confirm this?
Can anyone confirm this?
Has the signage been changed as a result of the court case then? If it'sperfectly clear at Gatwick that you must buy a ticket before boarding any train except to London Victoria, then I would have no complaints.
It still seems easier and less confusing for everyone to have a consistent policy across all services though.
It still seems easier and less confusing for everyone to have a consistent policy across all services though.
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