Southern Region newspaper trains 1950s/60s

[4COR]

Does anyone have information about newspaper trains that ran on the Southern Region in late 50s/early 60s - esp those on the Central region? Interested in timetables/routes, and also stock/motive power if anyone knows?

It's late steam and probably about the time when (after '62) the type JAs (73s) would have started to take over?

Cheers

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I can give you details of formations of the Waterloo newspaper trains, some from mid 50's/60's, from CWN's I have purchased, but I have nothing for South Central Division.

 

[Magdalia]

I have a 1969 Central Division Main Lines Passenger Working timetable, which has the following:

Monday-Saturday

0320 DL Victoria-Brighton
0450 DL Brighton-Worthing
0327 EDL Victoria-Bexhill
0435 EDL Three Bridges-Horsham

I can't find anything for West Coastway beyond Worthing or Horsham on Monday-Saturday

Sunday

0420 EDL Victoria-Brighton
0530 EDL Brighton-Angmering
0440 EDL Victoria-Brighton
0544 EDL Haywards Heath-Eastbourne
0445 EDL Victoria-Amberley
0441 DL Havant-Bognor Regis
0650 DL Hastings-Bexhill

 

[30907]

All, or nearly all, the paper trains from London carried limited passenger accommodation and so appeared in the timetable. I am not at home to look, but timetableworld.com is your friend! There was an interesting one from London Br to Brighton about 5.20am via Dorking and Horsham which called almost everywhere and took 3hr.

 

[4COR]

Thanks all - I may drop on and grab a copy of one of the timetables of the time and see what I can dig out.

I can give you details of formations of the Waterloo newspaper trains, some from mid 50's/60's, from CWN's I have purchased, but I have nothing for South Central Division.

I would be interested in the formations certainly around that time - of course, running at night, there aren't many photos around to refer to, and certainly not of that period (more later examples with 73s/33s etc).

I'm guessing the formation may have been a variety of ex SR vans (Bogie B, PMV, etc), but then, would the passenger accommodation have been something like loose formed Maunsell/Bulleids? (a brake or two perhaps?). Presume they wouldn't have used a Mk1 as they were relatively new stock at that point? Thanks!

 

[Gloster]

I did have a quick look at the BR coaching stock group’s files, but there didn’t seen to be much, though I will agree there did seem to be many SR vans. There were, I think, already a few of the dedicated GUV’s, i.e. a specifically numbered vehicle listed for a particular working. But note, I only had a minute or two and it always takes ages to download.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I would be interested in the formations certainly around that time - of course, running at night, there aren't many photos around to refer to, and certainly not of that period (more later examples with 73s/33s etc).

Late 70's/80's was my time on the job at Waterloo, even riding up front (EDL's) on the Down mail, being handy after late turn, as it left Waterloo at 22.52 (IIRC) so in the sort of path of what later became the standard xx 45 to Bournemouth. In those last years of the Down (and Up mail) trains, they became overwhelmed with punters, most of whom had had a skin full before boarding, and thus the 3 Set passenger coaches were a wash of vomit etc. And that was long before the 01.05 Waterloo to Southampton became known (unofficially) as the vomit comet!
A former colleague was well in with the Fleet Street packer guys who were in charge of the (newspaper train) loading at Waterloo back then, and I know he spent many nights taking pics of the newspaper trains back then, but I can't make any promises about acquiring any images there of, in the here and now. It was another time, which still holds fond memories for some of us!

 

[4COR]

I did have a quick look at the BR coaching stock group’s files, but there didn’t seen to be much, though I will agree there did seem to be many SR vans. There were, I think, already a few of the dedicated GUV’s, i.e. a specifically numbered vehicle listed for a particular working. But note, I only had a minute or two and it always takes ages to download.

Ah yes, thanks - the GUVs for the Southern Region were around 1959 if I remember right.

 

[Harvester]

Some of the early morning passenger/mail trains from Waterloo remained steam hauled until the very end of Southern steam. The passenger portion of the 02:45 am Waterloo-Bournemouth was often crowded with enthusiasts during the final weeks of steam, and on Tuesday 4th July 1967 Driver Gordon Porter worked WC Pacific 34001 up to 98mph near Winchester on this train. No idea what stock was used, although the load recorded leaving Waterloo was 3 passenger vehicles and 5 vans.

 

[30907]

Not Central Division, but I've just located a Carriage Working Notice for Holborn in 1957 - the 3.0am (2.55 public time) to Ramsgate is a Restriction 4 3-set (so Maunsell or Bulleid) plus "PMVs" which isn't too helpful

EDIT: shown as 3-set "B" which on checking were all Maunsell.

 

[4COR]

Not Central Division, but I've just located a Carriage Working Notice for Holborn in 1957 - the 3.0am (2.55 public time) to Ramsgate is a Restriction 4 3-set (so Maunsell or Bulleid) plus "PMVs" which isn't too helpful

No - still helpful: there is a 3-set attached, so that's more than a single loose brake shoved on the back/front (and how very Southern keeping coaches in sets!)

Some of the early morning passenger/mail trains from Waterloo remained steam hauled until the very end of Southern steam. The passenger portion of the 02:45 am Waterloo-Bournemouth was often crowded with enthusiasts during the final weeks of steam, and on Tuesday 4th July 1967 Driver Gordon Porter worked WC Pacific 34001 up to 98mph near Winchester on this train. No idea what stock was used, although the load recorded leaving Waterloo was 3 passenger vehicles and 5 vans.

Super thanks - again, looks like a 3-set of some sort attached to a variety of vans.

 

[30907]

No - still helpful: there is a 3-set attached, so that's more than a single loose brake shoved on the back/front (and how very Southern keeping coaches in sets!)

The 3-set arrived at Holborn 11.49pm on the 7.25pm from Ramsgate via Dover and Maidstone E (unique!), having previously worked the 4.9pm Tonbridge-Ramsgate.

The stock formed 7.6am Ramsgate-Gillingham and then went onto the Sheerness branch, whence it got to Tonbridge a day or two later having visited (at least) Ashford, Cannon St, Ludgate Hill, Blackheath, Rotherhithe Rd and possibly Charing X in the course of its wanderings - fascinating!

The switch to a single BSK or similar would have been post electrification.

Super thanks - again, looks like a 3-set of some sort attached to a variety of vans.

That one was a a 3-set into the 70s, and even carried passengers on the return for a year or three (around 0800 Totton/Brockenhurst-Eastleigh?).

 

[Magdalia]

I have the 1960 public timetable and the Central Division advertised trains were:

Monday-Saturday

3.20am London Bridge-Brighton
3.27am London Bridge-Eastbourne

Sunday

4.35am London Bridge-Brighton
4.40am London Bridge-Eastbourne with Horsham portion detached at East Croydon

I suspect that there were some unadvertised continuations.

This raises the question of when the trains moved from London Bridge to Victoria.

There was an interesting one from London Br to Brighton about 5.20am via Dorking and Horsham which called almost everywhere and took 3hr.

This is in the public timetable departing London Bridge at 5.8am, arriving Brighton 8.24am. I doubt that it conveyed news, the times are too late for local distribution to newsagents.

This gets a mention in the December 1959 Railway Observer as, during the 1959-60 winter timetable, it was booked for an unrebuilt West Country that returned on 1.55pm Brighton-Victoria via Uckfield.

 

[Taunton]

The report into the 1967 Raynes Park newspaper train accident has quite a lot of detail about procedures, the formation, etc. A shortage of bogie vans, leading to the use of short wheelbase freight wagons, was actually a key aspect of the substantial derailment. Report here:

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_RaynesPark1967.pdf

 

[Gloster]

That one was a a 3-set into the 70s, and even carried passengers on the return for a year or three (around 0800 Totton/Brockenhurst-Eastleigh?).

Even as late as 1980 the 3 set L that went down in the 02.45 Waterloo-Bournemouth continued empty at 05.41 to Poole, before running empty to Brockenhurst to form the 07.56 passenger to Eastleigh. Then it formed part of the 09.55 vans to Clapham Junction.

A 3 set L was supposed to be formed BSK+CK+BSK, but could be any combination with roughly the right number of seats and amount of van space.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I would be interested in the formations certainly around that time

A couple of pages from the high summer (June to Sept) CWN for 1963.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Does anyone have information about newspaper trains that ran on the Southern Region in late 50s/early 60s - esp those on the Central region?

Cheers

Steve Banks' excellent site - although Eastern / LNER biased - includes a section on parcels serivces in British Railways era.
Partway down the "steam" section, is a 1959 photo of an H16 at Clapham with a service. Train's formation is noted, too.

Parcels traffic in BR days - Steve Banks

Railway historical research (all companies) especially workings on the LNER and BR. Railway modelling of coaches and carriages on a professional basis.

www.steve-banks.org

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I did have a quick look at the BR coaching stock group’s files, but there didn’t seen to be much, though I will agree there did seem to be many SR vans. There were, I think, already a few of the dedicated GUV’s, i.e. a specifically numbered vehicle listed for a particular working.

Can't comment on dedicated GUV workings, certainly none on SW in my day, although there were dedicated BG workings, as has been the subject of a previous discussion some while back. These being allocated to the 01.45 Waterloo to Yeovil. As late as 1980 the leading vehicle (BG) and rear most one (also a BG) of the front (Yeovil) portion were the allocated domain of 80875 & 80949. The 1976 Appendix to the CWN lists these as modified (internal electric heating) and for use between Waterloo and Yeovil only, with 81039 similarly modified and held in reserve. The internal heating was for the benefit of the fleet street packers/sorters who rode in those vans.
The standard BR GUV's (86xxx) first appeared in 1956.

Can't comment on dedicated GUV workings

I correct myself . It would seem that until 1973 (at least - Appendix to CWN) GUV's 86724 & 86729 were the modified (EH) vans allocated to the Yeovil Newspaper train. But by 1975 these had been replaced by the BG's listed above, which is how I remember that train, at which point these two GUV's were transferred to Central Division, being joined by similarly modified 86705, for sole use on the Victoria to Brighton Newspaper trains.

Further edited: a couple of pages from 'Waterloo Platform & Carriage Working Programme' for 1970/71.

 

[4COR]

Really useful information - thanks everyone. The SW region news trains were certainly a real mix up of all kinds of stock!

Can I ask what the differences are in the CWN between eg PMV (4) and PMV (News)? I see there are also things like BY (News) - again, something specific about a BY converted for news train use?

 

[75A]

The 03:23 Victoria to Brighton had the heated GUV's during my time on the footplate (80 - 83) to give the blokes sorting all the papers out some comfort, because in the middle of the winter it could be a bit nippy.

The 03:27 Victoria to Eastbourne / Hastings didn't have 'sorters', but did have passengers in a heated brake second next to the 73.The train stopped @ Lewes for unloading and a crew change, and at Eastbourne, where the loco ran round the train and took the back van to Hastings for unloading and then on to Ore to run round.
Then back to Eastbourne to collect the rest of the train and then ECS to Brighton.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Can I ask what the differences are in the CWN between eg PMV (4) and PMV (News)?

Can't say for certain, but I can make an educated guess based on very limited documents I have. The (4) I believe referred to the standard 4 wheel (ex SR) PMV's that were pretty common place. The PMV/News variant may have been similar such van(s) specifically allocated for Newspaper train diagrams perhaps, but I think it more likely, given the previous specific reference to (4) against most PMV's, that these 'PMV/News' vans were former B (bogie brake) vans. Most of these lost their brake status in later years I believe, and are classified in the CWN Appendix (1973 in this case) under the heading 'Parcels and Miscellaneous Vans (Former Brake Vans) Bogie' (without gangways)(B)'. Although B vans in their own right are still referred to in the CWN during the same period(s), presumably from the minority of those still in their original configuration perhaps?

The BY vans had a brake van and a stove, so might have made an alternative, if harder riding location for the guard, if the other heated vans were given over to Newspaper packers etc., and a small number of BY's plus a small number of 4 wheel PMV's also had chains fitted for the transport of BRUTE trolleys, but these (chain fitted) vans seem to have been concentrated latterly on the SED.

Afterthought: looking again at the 1963 entry for the 1.15 a.m. to Ilfracombe, I see B vans specified as 'News' vans also, so may be the PMV (News) vans were just 4 wheel vans allocated to Newspaper duties afterall?

 

[30907]

Were trestle tables for sorting provided in some News vans? Vague memory of reading that detail.

 

[Gloster]

Were trestle tables for sorting provided in some News vans? Vague memory of reading that detail.

I know by the 1980s there were dedicated Newspaper vans and these were fitted with sorting tables, fluorescent lighting and, in some cases, rudimentary toilets. I wonder if the SR ones were just dedicated in the sense that they were not used for other traffic, so that you didn’t get all the odd bits of detritus and gunge that accumulated in vans mucking up the papers: The News of the Screws (and others) already had enough muck in them and didn’t want any more.

 

[75A]

I know by the 1980s there were dedicated Newspaper vans and these were fitted with sorting tables, fluorescent lighting and, in some cases, rudimentary toilets. I wonder if the SR ones were just dedicated in the sense that they were not used for other traffic, so that you didn’t get all the odd bits of detritus and gunge that accumulated in vans mucking up the papers: The News of the Screws (and others) already had enough muck in them and didn’t want any more.

Certainly the ones on the Victoria / London Bridge to Brighton were dedicated to this duty, spending the day in Brighton Top Yard, before forming the 23:18 back to The Smoke via a stop @ Redhill.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I wonder if the SR ones were just dedicated in the sense that they were not used for other traffic, so that you didn’t get all the odd bits of detritus and gunge that accumulated in vans

That was going round in my head, as back in my diagramming days I do have a vague memory of this discussion being had. It would make sense given the state some of those vans were in, in later years. Seem to recall seeing a discussion, either on here or RMweb page, about the liveries of the ex SR vans, and if any lasted to the end in green or maroon, never seeing a coat of blue. Difficult to tell with inches of brake dust and grime covering everything!

 

[Gloster]

That was going round in my head, as back in my diagramming days I do have a vague memory of this discussion being had. It would make sense given the state some of those vans were in, in later years. Seem to recall seeing a discussion, either on here or RMweb page, about the liveries of the ex SR vans, and if any lasted to the end in green or maroon, never seeing a coat of blue. Difficult to tell with inches of brake dust and grime covering everything!

I can remember that in 1979 some of the SR design PMV and CCT still carried lettering in the pre-1964 regional style. What the original colouring under the s**t brown that they carried was I don’t know, but I agree that many had probably never been repainted in blue. The lettering lasted quite well, considering that periodically Numbertakers like me had to rub them clean in order to find out what they were.

 

[StephenHunter]

Were MLVs much involved in this?

 

[30907]

Were MLVs much involved in this?

Not much, as generally newspaper trains required significantly more capacity.
But I recall a MLV-worked service in East Kent, IIRC Ashford-Margate, with a trailing load. Think that was mails or parcels, as the papers went via Chatham.

 

[Controller1701]

The winter 82/83 CWN for the eastern division shows a 02+20 Down Siding no 5 to Ashford Kent formed 1 x MLV, on arrival to attach to 1xNDV detached from the rear of the 23:40 London Bridge to Dover Priory service. The MLV and NDV then formed a 02:33 Ashford to Margate service. On arrival the NDV berthed for the front portion of the 09:55 Dover Town and the MLC then formed a 04+10 Margate to Ramsgate E.M.U.D (Electric Multiple Unit Depot)

Paul

 

[30907]

The winter 82/83 CWN for the eastern division shows a 02+20 Down Siding no 5 to Ashford Kent formed 1 x MLV, on arrival to attach to 1xNDV detached from the rear of the 23:40 London Bridge to Dover Priory service. The MLV and NDV then formed a 02:33 Ashford to Margate service. On arrival the NDV berthed for the front portion of the 09:55 Dover Town and the MLC then formed a 04+10 Margate to Ramsgate E.M.U.D (Electric Multiple Unit Depot)

Paul

Thanks, the one I was after.