Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[PGAT]

Just had a thought: what will happen to the limited services via Eastleigh and Botley?

 

[blelic]

Just had a thought: what will happen to the limited services via Eastleigh and Botley?

I’d imagine they will no longer run, as the paths for the services are different anyway now.

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably the recast will remove any paths for GWR to ever return to Brighton as well. I think that at one point, one of the reasons for the Botley diversion was to allow for other off-pattern services.

 

[blelic]

What length trains does everyone think will feature on these services? Three or four (or maybe more?) coaches?

 

[JonathanH]

What length trains does everyone think will feature on these services? Three or four (or maybe more?) coaches?

I imagine three car trains on the Brighton to Chichester services, and four car trains on everything else going west of Barnham.

 

[PGAT]

Presumably 3 coaches on the Barnham - Bognor shuttles as well

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably 3 coaches on the Barnham - Bognor shuttles as well

Unless they can interwork them with trains from London at Bognor.

Southern have 28 377/3s so if they need 14 for Tulse Hill services, 2 for Redhill to Tonbridge, 3 for Seaford and 6 for Brighton to Chichester, that makes 25, which is probably as many as they can roster.

 

[blelic]

Unless they can interwork them with trains from London at Bognor.

Southern have 28 377/3s so if they need 14 for Tulse Hill services, 2 for Redhill to Tonbridge, 3 for Seaford and 6 for Brighton to Chichester, that makes 25, which is probably as many as they can roster.

Do you think there’s any chance of longer formations? This is definitely a reach but what about 377/6s on the Southampton route?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I imagine three car trains on the Brighton to Chichester services

Given the loading levels I would expect 4 predominantly

 

[JonathanH]

Given the loading levels I would expect 4 predominantly

Where are the 377/3s going to used then, given they are the units freed up by removing the Littlehampton to Portsmouth / Bognor service?

 

[PGAT]

Do you think there’s any chance of longer formations? This is definitely a reach but what about 377/6s on the Southampton route?

You got 8 377/6s working the Caterham/Tattenham Corner/Epsom routes, 3 for Watford Junction (377/7 specifically), 8 for Dorking/Horsham (iirc) and 2 for the peak West Croydon / London Bridge services so there's definitely scope for running 5 (or potentially 10) coaches on that route.

 

[blelic]

Given the loading levels I would expect 4 predominantly

Hopefully, they’d definitely be justified.

You got 8 377/6s working the Caterham/Tattenham Corner/Epsom routes, 3 for Watford Junction (377/7 specifically), 8 for Dorking/Horsham (iirc) and 2 for the peak West Croydon / London Bridge services so there's definitely scope for running 5 (or potentially 10) coaches on that route.

Ideally then, 5 coaches BTN-SOU, 4 coaches BTN-CCH. I believe longer trains would cause issues with level crossings and platform lengths.

 

[PGAT]

Where are the 377/3s going to used then, given they are the units freed up by removing the Littlehampton to Portsmouth / Bognor service?

They could just be used to strengthen formations on the East Coastway, perhaps on the Brighton - Ore, Seaford or a return of the Lewes shuttle?

I believe longer trains would cause issues with level crossings and platform lengths.

I don't think they're that big of an issue, because 8 coaches have definitely ran before

 

[blelic]

They could just be used to strengthen formations on the East Coastway, perhaps on the Brighton - Ore, Seaford or a return of the Lewes shuttle?


I don't think they're that big of an issue, because 8 coaches have definitely ran before

True, I think probably not desirable though, and unlikely GTR would have the units available for 8/10 coach formations. In theory 5 coaches should be doable though, and would help massively with capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

They could just be used to strengthen formations on the East Coastway, perhaps on the Brighton - Ore, Seaford or a return of the Lewes shuttle?

The idea of strengthening formations is a bit optimistic given where Southern are with its fleet size, and its apparent aim to reallocate what it has to the most appropriate services.

In theory 5 coaches should be doable though, and would help massively with capacity.

In theory that is only possible by cutting formations in the metro area.

Given the 5-car units are allocated to Stewarts Lane for maintenance, and, no doubt, the legacy of a 4/8/12 car railway on the South Coast I'd say that expecting 5-car operation is somewhat optimistic.

 

[blelic]

They could just be used to strengthen formations on the East Coastway, perhaps on the Brighton - Ore, Seaford or a return of the Lewes shuttle?

Maybe instead to strengthen some South London services to 9 coaches rather than 8, allowing them to use the 4 coach 377s on the CCH services.

In theory that is only possible by cutting formations in the metro area.

True, although it’s arguable that the capacity would be used throughout the day far more so than in the metro area.

 

[PGAT]

Wouldn't maintenance be less of an issue for 377/6s considering they're much newer?

 

[blelic]

Wouldn't maintenance be less of an issue for 377/6s considering they're much newer?

Good point, not sure though if you look at the track record of some other new trains! The 700s recently for example.

 

[PGAT]

In theory that is only possible by cutting formations in the metro area.

Not really, there are definitely enough 377/6s and /7s to spare, even in the peak

 

[blelic]

Not really, there are definitely enough 377/6s and /7s to spare, even in the peak

Five coach services on the West Coastway really would be great.

 

[PedroHav]

I disagree.

It's not too much of an issue since very few people from Victoria will be travelling past Chichester, so only people travelling between Portsmouth and Horsham, Gatwick or Croydon would be slightly inconvenienced.

The route to Victoria from Havant is far cheaper than using SWT to Waterloo. There are a lot of passengers using this route for economic reasons. Please don't think that Southern services west of Chichester are not used on the service to Victoria. The extra few minutes is worth it .... but and extra 23 minutes is ridiculous.

Then consider the route to Gatwick. People from Southampton/Fareham, and west of Southampton, now would have to change trains, with suitcases, and add 23 minutes to the journey time. Not really customer facing ....

 

[weeklycommuter]

I disagree.

The route to Victoria from Havant is far cheaper than using SWT to Waterloo. There are a lot of passengers using this route for economic reasons. Please don't think that Southern services west of Chichester are not used on the service to Victoria. The extra few minutes is worth it .... but and extra 23 minutes is ridiculous.

Then consider the route to Gatwick. People from Southampton/Fareham, and west of Southampton, now would have to change trains, with suitcases, and add 23 minutes to the journey time. Not really customer facing ....

Unfortunately the London Victoria and Gatwick Airport to Southampton Central service is not very reliable, trains often get cancelled and turned around at Fareham due to running late. There is no point in having a direct service in the timetable if it does not run reliably. Better to have a reliable service with an easy change waiting on the same platform at Havant, Chichester or Barnham. The change to 2tph Brighton to Southampton Central and 2tph London Victoria and Gatwick Airport to Portsmouth Harbour gives longer turnaround times at Southampton Central and Portsmouth Harbour to ensure that the services run reliably all the way to the intended terminus stations of Southampton Central and Portsmouth Harbour.

 

[PGAT]

I disagree.

The route to Victoria from Havant is far cheaper than using SWT to Waterloo. There are a lot of passengers using this route for economic reasons. Please don't think that Southern services west of Chichester are not used on the service to Victoria. The extra few minutes is worth it .... but and extra 23 minutes is ridiculous.

Then consider the route to Gatwick. People from Southampton/Fareham, and west of Southampton, now would have to change trains, with suitcases, and add 23 minutes to the journey time. Not really customer facing ....

If passengers west of Chichester are willing to sacrifice half an hour for cheaper ticket prices, then a same platform interchange should not be a big issue. Re the suitcase interchange “issue”: an individual living in Southampton/Fareham will only be going on holiday a couple times a year (and that’s assuming they don’t use their own local airport), while they commute most days of the year, so the interests of the commuters should be prioritised for improvement over the interests of the seldom airport travellers.

 

[blelic]

Just wondering, has the consultation been advertised at all by GTR?

 

[islandmonkey]

If passengers west of Chichester are willing to sacrifice half an hour for cheaper ticket prices, then a same platform interchange should not be a big issue. Re the suitcase interchange “issue”: an individual living in Southampton/Fareham will only be going on holiday a couple times a year (and that’s assuming they don’t use their own local airport), while they commute most days of the year, so the interests of the commuters should be prioritised for improvement over the interests of the seldom airport travellers.

For me currently, a direct train to Gatwick is more of a nice thing to have rather than a necessity.

 

[PGAT]

Just wondering, has the consultation been advertised at all by GTR?

I was unable to find it without the link, so probably not

 

[blelic]

I asked GTR about carriage formations in response to the consultation, ans they replied with the following:

 

[387star]

So no fast Chichester to Havant trains?

 

[JonathanH]

So no fast Chichester to Havant trains?

Only one of the current services each hour runs non-stop from Chichester to Havant at the moment.

In the new structure, all four trains each hour stop at Emsworth and Southbourne, with the 2tph Victoria to Portsmouth services picking up the other four stations 1tph between them.

 

[evergreenadam]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this but I couldn’t see one and the proposed changes are creating quite a bit of media interest.

https://www.southernrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-and-documents/timetable-consultation-2023/west-coastway-timetables-changes-engagement.pdf