• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

London Trains

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2017
Messages
912
Correct. But is there a pressing need to reorganise the Sunday service at no extra cost? If not, don't waste resources tryihg to plan it.
Surely a Sunday service should just be a slightly reduced version of the Monday to Saturday timetable?

There aren't completely different flows on particular days of the week, so it makes much more sense to have a consistent timetable.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,122
Location
Airedale
Surely a Sunday service should just be a slightly reduced version of the Monday to Saturday timetable?

There aren't completely different flows on particular days of the week, so it makes much more sense to have a consistent timetable.
It often is, but it depends on whether a "slight reduction" actually works. In this case, the Sunday timetable over the whole Brighton main line is broadly 50% of the weekday, for whatever historic reasons, so running alternate trains of the SX service would leave a very messy timetable on the main line.

Whether that is the right provision in 2023 is a matter for another thread - but DfT is not yet ready to agree major changes even if the railway has the planning or staffing resources for them.
 

Sussex Ben

Member
Joined
21 May 2021
Messages
97
Location
Mid Sussex
I largely get the principles for this change, however it’s a shame that there is a potential missed opportunity for trying to increase modal share from reducing journey times on the Brighton to Southampton service.

I’d be keen to understand the rationale for giving places like Lancing 6tph - it may be that without so many calls on BTN-SOU the trains would incur lots of pathing time anyway, but it would be useful to see a timetable (or at least a standard hour) which proves that.
 

David Goddard

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
1,503
Location
Reading
Interesting proposals, the standardisation of the timetable will no doubt help with crew and stock diagramming, and also with all trains along each route going the same place should make understanding the timetable easier, even if it means that more passengers will have to change trains than do at the moment. West Coastway is one of those that you can either make complicated by having trains from "everywhere to everywhere", or a regular set of services on the same flows with decent connections, as proposed here.

Had Barnham been a full twin island station then this could have been ideal for double connections on this route, but with the layout as it is then connections will be longer.

The biggest issue that I see is the two services terminating at Chichester, which could create a new performance risk. Dwell times for arrivals and departures will need to be fairly slick, plus with crossing to the up side siding to reverse, any delays could be passed onto the through trains. Coupled to this, although they are quieter stations, one could expect noise from users of those stations West of Chichester which will see the "skip stop" pattern. It would cost another diagram, but maybe both could be solved by the Class 2 services at this end of the network staying as now, with one of the trains coming out of Littlehampton (now Brighton) going to Portsmouth & Southsea calling all stations, while the other goes to Bognor Regis as one of the branch shuttles, which would also maintain the status quo from Littlehampton westwards.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,910
Coupled to this, although they are quieter stations, one could expect noise from users of those stations West of Chichester which will see the "skip stop" pattern. It would cost another diagram, but maybe both could be solved by the Class 2 services at this end of the network staying as now, with one of the trains coming out of Littlehampton (now Brighton) going to Portsmouth & Southsea calling all stations, while the other goes to Bognor Regis as one of the branch shuttles, which would also maintain the status quo from Littlehampton westwards.
I think the effective point is that using four units to keep services running at the local stations between Chichester and Havant is an ineffective use of resources that can better be used where custom is greater between Brighton and Littlehampton. Unfortunate, but a ride on the Littlehampton to Portsmouth stopper shows that its custom can be absorbed by other trains picking up its stops.
 

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,479
Location
Selhurst
Whoever moved our posts to this thread made a bit of a typo: it’s the West Coastway not East
 

David Dunning

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2009
Messages
208
Location
York
I will miss the Victoria link. I do York-KX-St Pan-East Croydon-Swanwick once a month as a cheaper tube free alternative to via Waterloo. Another change at Havant is one too many. Southampton and Swanwick want Gatwick not Southwick. Changing with luggage will see more people drive from west of Havant.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding the London Vic - Portsmouth, are these going to run via Mitcham Junction, Sutton (Surrey), and Epsom, or via East Croydon and Three bridges?

Noting some comments upthread regarding journey times west of Chichester, running the Portsmouth trains via Epsom would trim the journey time as it is the shortest route between Vic and Horsham.

Apologies if I may have missed something, as the rail network on the former BR Southern Region/south of the Thames is foreign to me.
 

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,479
Location
Selhurst
Regarding the London Vic - Portsmouth, are these going to run via Mitcham Junction, Sutton (Surrey), and Epsom, or via East Croydon and Three bridges?

Noting some comments upthread regarding journey times west of Chichester, running the Portsmouth trains via Epsom would trim the journey time as it is the shortest route between Vic and Horsham.

Apologies if I may have missed something, as the rail network on the former BR Southern Region/south of the Thames is foreign to me.
All trains will be routed via Three Bridges and East Croydon. Running via Epsom wouldn’t be faster because of lower line speeds, and the spur linking it to the mainline at Streatham North Jn is only single track
 

WizCastro197

Established Member
Joined
12 May 2022
Messages
1,453
Location
Reigate
Regarding the London Vic - Portsmouth, are these going to run via Mitcham Junction, Sutton (Surrey), and Epsom, or via East Croydon and Three bridges?

Noting some comments upthread regarding journey times west of Chichester, running the Portsmouth trains via Epsom would trim the journey time as it is the shortest route between Vic and Horsham.

Apologies if I may have missed something, as the rail network on the former BR Southern Region/south of the Thames is foreign to me.
Correct if maybe wrong but surely running via Epsom would drive some demand down due to not running via Gatwick?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,474
Regarding the London Vic - Portsmouth, are these going to run via Mitcham Junction, Sutton (Surrey), and Epsom, or via East Croydon and Three bridges?
But surely the additional or second Victoria to Portsmouth will simply replace the Victoria to Southampton in the same timings as now, at least as far as Barnham. West of Barnham calling patterns will be different, but I can’t see any need to change anything at all on the section between Victoria and Barnham. I believe they’ll still split off a Bognor slow portion at Horsham.

Running via Sutton has been suggested many times before, and the answer has always been that other existing services would have to removed to free up track capacity, but avoiding Gatwick and Crawley would rule out the idea anyway.
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,192
people from Portsmouth also want a mix of direct trains to both stations to Horsham / Gatwick / Croydon and stations to Worthing / Shoreham / Brighton. I can understand the rationale in further slowing down the Victoria - Portsmouth service because of the withdrawal of the Littlehampton stopper (even if it does make journeys painfully slower compared to the current nonstop Havant - Chichester), but forcing people to change at Chichester or Barnham and the significant journey times is too much.

Is there a reason both Southampton and Portsmouth can’t maintain their current split of services, but better spread out to provide that all important recovery time at destination?
 

miklcct

On Moderation
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
4,337
Location
Cricklewood
people from Portsmouth also want a mix of direct trains to both stations to Horsham / Gatwick / Croydon and stations to Worthing / Shoreham / Brighton. I can understand the rationale in further slowing down the Victoria - Portsmouth service because of the withdrawal of the Littlehampton stopper (even if it does make journeys painfully slower compared to the current nonstop Havant - Chichester), but forcing people to change at Chichester or Barnham and the significant journey times is too much.

Is there a reason both Southampton and Portsmouth can’t maintain their current split of services, but better spread out to provide that all important recovery time at destination?
I have sent an email supporting the change. Frequency is the king. It represents improvement over the current hourly frequency for some destinations.
 

leytongabriel

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2013
Messages
591
So if the Southampton - Victoria service is going, which service will be the first choice for cancellations?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,474
people from Portsmouth also want a mix of direct trains to both stations to Horsham / Gatwick / Croydon and stations to Worthing / Shoreham / Brighton. I can understand the rationale in further slowing down the Victoria - Portsmouth service because of the withdrawal of the Littlehampton stopper (even if it does make journeys painfully slower compared to the current nonstop Havant - Chichester), but forcing people to change at Chichester or Barnham and the significant journey times is too much.

Is there a reason both Southampton and Portsmouth can’t maintain their current split of services, but better spread out to provide that all important recovery time at destination?
If you want a 30 min interval at both ends of the existing service pattern, with similar calls in each service it’s impossible. That’s precisely why they are proposing the change. 30/30 at both Victoria and Brighton forces the 15/45 at the other ends.

So if the Southampton - Victoria service is going, which service will be the first choice for cancellations?
The main reason the Victoria - Southampton is regularly curtailed at Fareham is because it would miss its return path from Southampton, because it has such a short normal turnround. Changing it to give a 30 min interval is meant to remove this problem, so fewer trains should be terminated short. I assume from the brief the same turnround time increase occurs on the Portsmouth services.
 
Last edited:

Bishopstone

Established Member
Joined
24 Jun 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Seaford
It’s good news. Restores a stopping service to the Brighton conurbation, and the speeded-up Southamptons will no longer call at any halt beginning with ‘Fish’. I would have trimmed the Southwick and Ford calls, as well.

The Chichester starters and finishers should do a good trade with the many students who commute daily.
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,192
Well I’m glad there’s so many people that are happy that other people west of Chichester are getting a raw deal and losing direct services to key locations. The only people that gain from the Solent conurbation (and further west) are people that live in the Woolston area. If you live Fareham and want to go to Gatwick, or live Portsmouth and want to go to Brighton then you’ll have to lump it and put up with the significantly longer journey times and have the inconvenience of a change. It’s only going to push more people onto the (seriously congested) A27
 

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,479
Location
Selhurst
Would the plans be any less popular if the Victoria services went to Southampton and the Brighton services went to Portsmouth?
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,192
Would the plans be any less popular if the Victoria services went to Southampton and the Brighton services went to Portsmouth?

From pure anecdotal evidence I would suggest Portsmouth - Victoria and Southampton - Brighton is the least worst option, but I don’t have anything to back that up.
 

OneOfThe48

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2023
Messages
73
Location
London
From pure anecdotal evidence I would suggest Portsmouth - Victoria and Southampton - Brighton is the least worst option, but I don’t have anything to back that up.
So its that set up (which is what these proposals suggest) or no change at all, which would keep the current unreliable set up in place.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,122
Location
Airedale
Well I’m glad there’s so many people that are happy that other people west of Chichester are getting a raw deal and losing direct services to key locations. The only people that gain from the Solent conurbation (and further west) are people that live in the Woolston area. If you live Fareham and want to go to Gatwick, or live Portsmouth and want to go to Brighton then you’ll have to lump it and put up with the significantly longer journey times and have the inconvenience of a change. It’s only going to push more people onto the (seriously congested) A27
What about the people who will switch to train because they have a half-hourly service instead of hourly? Surely there are swings as well as roundabouts?
 

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,479
Location
Selhurst
What about the people who will switch to train because they have a half-hourly service instead of hourly? Surely there are swings as well as roundabouts?
Fair point, now that the frequency has doubled and the Harbour is now served it’s finally practical to take the cheaper option into London
 

Islineclear3_1

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2014
Messages
5,840
Location
PTSO or platform depending on the weather
Just catching up on this thread....

So the Littlehampton - Portsmouth & Southseas will be no more. Replaced by 2 x Brighton - Chichester via Littlehampton. Barnham - Bognor Regis shuttles all day? So pax from Littlehampton wanting Bognor will have to change at Barnham for the shuttle or the Victoria - Bognor directs.

Have I got this correct?

Certainly from the Saturday turns, surely 7 or 8-cars minimum should be rostered for the Brighton - Chichester's (?)
 

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,479
Location
Selhurst
Littlehampton to Bognor shuttles will still be running, interworking with the Barnham to Bognor shuttles. Brighton - Chichester services will be allocated 3 or 4 cars. It could be different for a Saturday, but it's unlikely
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,910
Littlehampton to Bognor shuttles will still be running, interworking with the Barnham to Bognor shuttles. Brighton - Chichester services will be allocated 3 or 4 cars. It could be different for a Saturday, but it's unlikely
I read it as the Littlehampton to Bognor services are replaced by the Brighton to Chichester services. Passengers for Bognor change at Barnham.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,474
Have they scored an own goal in the way they’ve described the intended future service from Chichester. Westbound is what we‘d expect to see, but eastbound they only list Victoria (half hourly) and Brighton via Littlehampton (half hourly).

But nobody would use that stopper for the end to end journey, wouldn’t they use the faster service from Southampton that runs straight to Brighton (half hourly) :?:
 

Tomp94

Member
Joined
9 May 2019
Messages
179
A bit of a petty point from me...

I always like a forwards facing seat....
so If these changes come into fruition, it means a change of seat at Littlehampton on my Brighton to Chichester service ...unless I use the Brighton to Southamptons!!

I also think it's quite poor that there will no longer be a direct train to Poersmouth!
 

Top