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Specials Route Knowledge

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ExRes

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I have wondered in the past just how some FOC drivers managed to be passed out on so many routes compared to TOC drivers, whose route knowledge would elapse after 6 months. You couldn’t possibly drive all the routes they’re said to have route knowledge over within a 6 month period.

It all depends on your local mangement, and by that I mean at TCS level not the idiots in suits, if you rotate your drivers with a bit of thought then it means they can keep their competence on the mainline and use refresher days for the odd bits and pieces, FOC or TOC are no different to each other
 
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Most Tocs have a rigid 6 months limit on route knowledge,rostering software wont allocate a route if the Driver hasn't been over it for 6 months, where as most Focs seem to leave this to an individual.
 

godfreycomplex

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I have wondered in the past just how some FOC drivers managed to be passed out on so many routes compared to TOC drivers, whose route knowledge would elapse after 6 months. You couldn’t possibly drive all the routes they’re said to have route knowledge over within a 6 month period.

At ScotRail the tendency has been to reduce depot route cards which has resulted in their knowledge becoming more and more concentrated. For example Glasgow Queen Street & Edinburgh route knowledge was cut back to Dundee having formerly gone all the way to Aberdeen, with Aberdeen crews knowledge being reduced to being as far as Perth.

Glasgow Central link 2 & Corkerhill drivers who used to know the route to Carlisle via Dumfries, were reduced to knowing the line only as far as Kilmarnock, requiring Dumfries or Ayr drivers to take over. This was all done in the name of reducing the risk of operational safety incidents, SPADs basically. There was no problem diagramming drivers to cover the routes within the 6 month requirement, but the prevailing belief was that even within that timeframe an occasional working wasn’t enough.
At two TOCs in my neck of the woods crews actually had markedly fewer incidents, proportionally, on areas of line they didn’t often drive (less complacency), so, as usual, not sure where Scotrail got that one from….
 

irish_rail

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At two TOCs in my neck of the woods crews actually had markedly fewer incidents, proportionally, on areas of line they didn’t often drive (less complacency), so, as usual, not sure where Scotrail got that one from….
Totally agree with you. As a driver myself, my concentration is at its best when I'm on a route that I don't do day after day. On the other hand when I'm doing my 5th trip to Penzance in a row , its easy for the mind to begin to wander.
Lots of route knowledge is a good thing, provided there is sufficient booked work to cover it every few months minimum.
NOT, learning a route after going over it once then not touching it again for a couple of years and then driving it almost blind.
 

bunnahabhain

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As somebody who works charter trains on the national network as a Guard with the exception of one occasion I've gone out and covered the routes and learned them the same as I do for my day to day TOC. I look at the stations along the route for method of dispatch, dispatch staff, any off indicators, banner repeaters, any hazards that are location unique, along the route between the stations I'll look at the direction of the lines especially as in many places it can change repeatedly, line names, controlling signalboxes, junctions and where they lead to, electrification, method of signalling, special and local instructions and anything else I feel I need to know to safely work a train.

One of the most interesting things I suppose is that the majority of charter trains I've worked are self dispatch in the majority of locations however some TOCs seem to have mandatory dispatch so whilst on my paperwork I'm self dispatch everywhere, I always liaise with any platform staff present to determine their level of involvement, be that anything from observation, operating TRTS, giving the tip, assisted dispatch (50/50 checking doors with me) to full dispatch. I dispatched a charter at Stockport earlier this year and had 3 dispatchers do full dispatch for me and even operate the RA indicator!

I have access to route maps and videos to assist with route learning covering the majority of the country, backed up by the electronic sectional appendix, and notices for the network emailed to me.

I tend to find I'm more hyperaware (cautious?) when I'm working a charter service primarily due to the lesser familiarity with the locations than somewhere I've dispatched from 1,000s of times but also because of the slam doors.
 

Saltleyman

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The main reason I remained at Saltley at privatisation was that although Saltley became a Railfreight Distribution Depot the diversity of work was far better than Inter City XC or Central trains.Also Rfd had a far varied route knowledge requirement.
 

Astro_Orbiter

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One thing to consider I should imagine is that TOC drivers will be learning stations and braking points, stop boards etc etc whereas freight drivers won't need to know these things, mainly speeds and junctions and gradients.
 

zwk500

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Do need to know about stop boards etc? If so, why? It seems a bit pointless if they won't be stopping at stations
They need to know where to stop at any point they might get a red signal so as not to stand foul of the AWS or have their tail hanging over the junction but must still be able to see the signal.
 

Efini92

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They need to know where to stop at any point they might get a red signal so as not to stand foul of the AWS or have their tail hanging over the junction but must still be able to see the signal.
What do you mean?
 

ABB125

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They need to know where to stop at any point they might get a red signal so as not to stand foul of the AWS or have their tail hanging over the junction but must still be able to see the signal.
Of course, but surely that doesn't require knowledge of where platform atop boards are (unless a particular stop board also happens to be the correct location to stop before a red signal)?
 

SynthD

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What do you mean?
For a given junction they need to know when the end of their train has passed it. I've learned on this forum that passenger train length-based signs are put up on some routes. Do freight drivers note the length that board applies to, and how much further they need to go? Or are the lengths too variable so they rely on technology?
 

Dieseldriver

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They need to know where to stop at any point they might get a red signal so as not to stand foul of the AWS or have their tail hanging over the junction but must still be able to see the signal.
Or just, stop at the signal if it’s red. Whether the train is hanging over a junction or not is really not the Drivers concern. As for standing foul of the AWS, I assume you mean don’t stop on top of an AWS magnet? If so that really has nothing to do with route knowledge the magnets are yellow and they sit in the four foot, you can see them.
A FOC Drivers route knowledge is the same basics as a TOC Driver. The only thing that you clearly don’t need is knowledge of station braking points. You still need to know the stations themselves though as does every Driver. The only other thing that may make it easier is in terms of routings at a station (eg, if you’re driving through on a freight train you can go anywhere even if there’s no platform, only routing that would cause problems is if it’s into a dead end platform).
 

Efini92

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Or just, stop at the signal if it’s red. Whether the train is hanging over a junction or not is really not the Drivers concern. As for standing foul of the AWS, I assume you mean don’t stop on top of an AWS magnet? If so that really has nothing to do with route knowledge the magnets are yellow and they sit in the four foot, you can see them.
A FOC Drivers route knowledge is the same basics as a TOC Driver. The only thing that you clearly don’t need is knowledge of station braking points. You still need to know the stations themselves though as does every Driver. The only other thing that may make it easier is in terms of routings at a station (eg, if you’re driving through on a freight train you can go anywhere even if there’s no platform, only routing that would cause problems is if it’s into a dead end platform).
You summed up what I was thinking.


For a given junction they need to know when the end of their train has passed it. I've learned on this forum that passenger train length-based signs are put up on some routes. Do freight drivers note the length that board applies to, and how much further they need to go? Or are the lengths too variable so they rely on technology?
There’s rear clear marker boards which have started appearing in places. They tell the driver when the train is in clear of a signal they are shunting behind.
Im not aware of any such signage to indicate when you’re off a lower permissible speed.
 

4F89

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Or just, stop at the signal if it’s red. Whether the train is hanging over a junction or not is really not the Drivers concern. As for standing foul of the AWS, I assume you mean don’t stop on top of an AWS magnet? If so that really has nothing to do with route knowledge the magnets are yellow and they sit in the four foot, you can see them.
A FOC Drivers route knowledge is the same basics as a TOC Driver. The only thing that you clearly don’t need is knowledge of station braking points. You still need to know the stations themselves though as does every Driver. The only other thing that may make it easier is in terms of routings at a station (eg, if you’re driving through on a freight train you can go anywhere even if there’s no platform, only routing that would cause problems is if it’s into a dead end platform).
You know a lot of trains are relieved in stations on greens? Still need to know where to get the brake in.....

Plus gotta know ALL the dolly's for every station we go thru, all the variations and daft little moves for engineering and run rounds.... a lot more to it than get on at the start and off at the end.
 

XAM2175

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Do freight drivers note the length that board applies to, and how much further they need to go? Or are the lengths too variable so they rely on technology?

Some newer train management systems have a facility for the driver to input the length of the train, after which they can press a button in the cab whenever the head of the train has passed a certain point and the TMS will give a beep or other form of notification when the tail passes the same the point.
 

Dieseldriver

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You know a lot of trains are relieved in stations on greens? Still need to know where to get the brake in.....

Plus gotta know ALL the dolly's for every station we go thru, all the variations and daft little moves for engineering and run rounds.... a lot more to it than get on at the start and off at the end.
I’ll correct what I originally said, you don’t need to know the braking points for the majority of stations you sign through. What I’m trying to say is that the knowledge a FOC Driver needs is not less than what a TOC Driver needs other than station braking points for most stations (which as a TOC Driver become ‘second nature’ over time for the vast majority of them other than maybe the odd station you generally aren’t usually booked to stop at anyway).
There seems to be a strange thought from some Passenger Drivers that Freight Drivers somehow don’t need to know the route to the same standard, if anything you could argue that a FOC Driver will need to know certain aspects of routes better than a TOC Driver.
 

4F89

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I’ll correct what I originally said, you don’t need to know the braking points for the majority of stations you sign through. What I’m trying to say is that the knowledge a FOC Driver needs is not less than what a TOC Driver needs other than station braking points for most stations (which as a TOC Driver become ‘second nature’ over time for the vast majority of them other than maybe the odd station you generally aren’t usually booked to stop at anyway).
There seems to be a strange thought from some Passenger Drivers that Freight Drivers somehow don’t need to know the route to the same standard, if anything you could argue that a FOC Driver will need to know certain aspects of routes better than a TOC Driver.
My point, especially if you get unit testing etc, I would 100% say FOC drivers need to know much more than TOC drivers
 

Annetts key

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I would think that drivers of engineering trains would have some interesting things to say about route knowledge, as of course inside a T3 occupation they may travel in any direction on any line if directed, and the locations they must stop at often are not places they would have stopped at before.
 

Efini92

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I would think that drivers of engineering trains would have some interesting things to say about route knowledge, as of course inside a T3 occupation they may travel in any direction on any line if directed, and the locations they must stop at often are not places they would have stopped at before.
They would also be going a lot slower than linespeed.
 

A Challenge

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I would think that drivers of engineering trains would have some interesting things to say about route knowledge, as of course inside a T3 occupation they may travel in any direction on any line if directed, and the locations they must stop at often are not places they would have stopped at before.
Is there any need for route knowledge in a possession, because of the low speed and different conditions to open lines? I take it trains in possessions don't have to obey lineside signals either?
 

Townsend Hook

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Is there any need for route knowledge in a possession, because of the low speed and different conditions to open lines? I take it trains in possessions don't have to obey lineside signals either?
Unsure about route knowledge, but drivers within a possession do not have to obey signals as they would on a line open to traffic. All movements are under the instruction of the PICOP (Person In Charge Of Possesion) or the ES (Engineering Supervisor) outside and inside of worksites, respectively.
 

43066

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Is there any need for route knowledge in a possession, because of the low speed and different conditions to open lines? I take it trains in possessions don't have to obey lineside signals either?

Some freight companies move drivers around the country to operate locos in possessions. Route knowledge is very limited because, as you say, movements are only within the possession.
 

GB

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If drivers don't sign the route in a possession they should have had a site brief from their employer giving basic details such as running lines, gradients and hazards like level crossings. As above, most signals are disregarded within a possession except for entry and exit and any signal protecting a level crossing.
 

jamieP

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I have to admit I did find it odd that GBRF could find a driver with less than 12 hours notice that signed both 91s and the WCML from Mossend to Carlisle, when LNER can’t even find someone to sign them North of Newcastle in normal circumstances, but this thread explains how!

I can’t help thinking that allowing drivers to work a higher variety of routes rather than keeping them on the same ones all the time would help reduce SPADs. I’d have thought a SPAD at an approach control signal would be more likely with a driver that does that route every day, and was therefore expecting the signal to clear so didn’t act accordingly, than it would be with a driver who didn’t work that route often and therefore would be more likely to treat an approach signal on red as a red.

Im sure its was a ROG driver who drove the 91 on the tour not a GBRf driver.
 

Annetts key

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Is there any need for route knowledge in a possession, because of the low speed and different conditions to open lines? I take it trains in possessions don't have to obey lineside signals either?

Unsure about route knowledge, but drivers within a possession do not have to obey signals as they would on a line open to traffic. All movements are under the instruction of the PICOP (Person In Charge Of Possesion) or the ES (Engineering Supervisor) outside and inside of worksites, respectively.
Yes, the speeds are limited in a T3 possession. And even lower in a T3 worksite.

Inside most T3 possessions signals are ignored as the line is under the control of the PIOCP unless in a worksite, in which case the area of the worksite is under control of the Engineering Supervisor (ES).

Drivers are required to have route knowledge so that they can take their train from it’s origin point to the relevant signal that protects the T3 possession. Or to stop at the relevant (pre-arranged) signal and then wait for the T3 possession to be taken around them.

They must obviously obey the first signal and the subsequent signals when exiting a T3 possession.

However, drivers still have to have enough local knowledge in order to follow the directions given to them. So if so instructed to move the train to a particular location, they should have some idea of junctions, points, level crossings (including occupation/accommodation private crossings), bridges and other landmarks. And some idea of the mileages.

It is the duty of both the PICOP/ES and the driver to ensure that any points that the train requires to pass over are set correctly for the intended movement. The normal protection provided by the signalling system not being available because the signaller is not calling routes and will only move points when requested by the PICOP/ES.
 
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75A

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However, drivers still have to have enough local knowledge in order to follow the directions given to them. So if so instructed to move the train to a particular location, they should have some idea of junctions, points, level crossings (including occupation/accommodation private crossings), bridges and other landmarks. And some idea of the mileages.
I would add gradients to this list.
 

infobleep

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As someone who has face blindness, I wonder how much of a photographic memory is required?

I can't always recall precise details of things I've done in the past and whilst I can commit stuff to my long term memory, not sure if I could committee route knowledge and the ability to know precisely where I was at any one time.
 
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