Speculation: BR Class 442 - Northern Franchise

[lfc2014uk]

Rumours have surfaced that whoever wins the northern franchise in 2016 will be offered BR Class 442's once the Gatwick express route (southern trains) has been given new rolling stock in 2018.

The 442's would need to be changed from 3rd rail to overhead power to be used on such routes as Liverpool - Manchester Victoria & Liverpool - Scotland routes via Wigan as a semi fast service.

As the 442's are from the 90s these would be a better than the proposed BR Class 319s (14 sets) from the 80s being given to northern rail between now and 2015.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Where have these rumours surfaced? I thought the 319's were a done deal.

Now I understand some "Northerners" are complaining of getting second hand stock (i.e. 319's) but what will they think when they hear about getting 442s with traction motors and some electrical bits of 1966/1974 vintage...?

Are they still suffering from fires?

IMO they are/were lovely trains until they had the first class compartments ripped out...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where have these rumours surfaced? I thought the 319's were a done deal.

Now I understand some "Northerners" are complaining of getting second hand stock (i.e. 319's) but what will they think when they hear about getting 442s with traction motors and some electrical bits of 1966/1974 vintage...?

Are they still suffering from fires?

IMO they are/were lovely trains until they had the first class compartments ripped out...

They were indeed lovely trains in their original guise- but of all the proposals for their future use, this is the most unlikely. For a start, the routes mentioned by the OP are not Northern routes anyway- but TPE routes.

 

[455driver]

In other rumours I am about to marry Kylie Minogue!
I reckon there is more chance of that happening than a rather old 5 coach unit (which was designed and built for use on 3rd rail only) being converted to work on 25KV overhead.

First question-
Why?

 

[Domh245]

I was under the impression that a conversion to 25KV AC wouldn't happen on the grounds of cost, which was high because of the age of the units. To convert the fleet to OLE, which would involve the fitting of a pantograph, related bodywork, related electrical bits, related controls, and retractioning (and you might as well do the necessary DDA works - seeing as you're essentially rebuilding one coach, you might as well give it doors wide enough for DDA compliance) would cost as a guess £1,000,000 per set. Thats £24,000,000 for the leasing company to try and regain - most likely through higher leasing costs, which in turn would lead to higher fares &c.

You also say that these are more suitable than the 319s - I beg to differ. The 319s come 'ready to run' just pan up and away you go, but as I've just said these need extensive work before you can start running them - probably a year per set (more if you use Wabtec ) Not to mention that the 442s have the end door layout, and the routes which you suggest they will end up on sound as if they are better suited to the 1/3 2/3 door layout, as per the 319s.

I'm sorry to say this, but wherever this rumour came from, it is more of a fantastical idea, probably dreamt up by someone with very little understanding of what needs to be done.(management?)

ps - congratulations on the engagement 455driver!

 

[NotATrainspott]

What is the source of this rumour? If it's simple hearsay then it could easily just be the various chit-chat about such silly ideas from this forum and others coming around again. There would be so much needing done to these trains for this to work that there really wouldn't be much left of them.

 

[507 001]

"442s newer than 319s"

Erm, I might be missing something here but are the first batch of 319s and 442s not the same age?
And correct me if I'm wrong but was a batch of 319s not built in 1990?

 

[Bishopstone]

Definitely one from the Plastic Porcine Aviation Department

 

[cjmillsnun]

Rumours have surfaced that whoever wins the northern franchise in 2016 will be offered BR Class 442's once the Gatwick express route (southern trains) has been given new rolling stock in 2018.

The 442's would need to be changed from 3rd rail to overhead power to be used on such routes as Liverpool - Manchester Victoria & Liverpool - Scotland routes via Wigan as a semi fast service.

As the 442's are from the 90s these would be a better than the proposed BR Class 319s (14 sets) from the 80s being given to northern rail between now and 2015.

You're 3 months and 4 days late with that rumour...

The 442s are likely headed for one place after they finish with SN. That is a fair bit north of their location now, but sadly it's Booth's

 

[Islineclear3_1]

"442s newer than 319s"

Erm, I might be missing something here but are the first batch of 319s and 442s not the same age?
And correct me if I'm wrong but was a batch of 319s not built in 1990?

Indeed!

From memory, the 442's were built in 1988 to replace the 4Rep/TC's following electrification to Weymouth. They were also tractioned with the (then) powerful 4Rep motors that dated from the late 1960s/early 1970s.

In fact, the 319's date from 1987 through 1988 and a later batch followed in 1990/1

So indeed, they are the same age but not traction motor wise which in itself is getting on for 40 years!

Next, the 442s will have their driving cabs cut off and replaced with those from the former GatEx Darth Vader's... Now, that would be interesting!

 

[455driver]

I ps - congratulations on the engagement 455driver!

I cant wait for the wedding night!
Drifts off into a dream
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Definitely one from the Plastic Porcine Aviation Department

I like that saying, consider it pinched!

 

[Monty]

I cant wait for the wedding night!
Drifts off into a dream
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I like that saying, consider it pinched!

Do I get to be best man?

 

[455driver]

Do I get to be best man?

You can be any man you want to be, but I am 'doing the honours'!

 

[yorksrob]

Trust me, I would be ecstatic if a 442 were to turn up on my Northern commute (even more so if they'd still had the compartment carriages, buffet and lounge area). Somehow, I fear such a happy turn of events will remain unlikely.

 

[ExRes]

Once upon a time, I was involved in a séance in which we all had contact with a poodle named Ethelbert, he was the faithful hound of the Beeching household

Ethelbert told us that the 442s are having all traction motors and associated equipment removed, their cabs cut off, a 5* restaurant car makeover in one coach and will then be strengthened by the addition of a diesel generator car so that they can be hauled by pairs of Super20s, solely in the North West, thus avoiding the wasteful expense of overhead wiring

Next story please ..........


ps - Ideal for celebrity wedding receptions of course

 

[northwichcat]

The 442s are likely headed for one place after they finish with SN. That is a fair bit north of their location now, but sadly it's Booth's

Well the 442s have had an assessment for compliance with post-2019 accessibility standards: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/heavy-rail-fleet-angel-trains-class-442 which is more than the 142s have had. Both 442s and 142s are leased from Angel Trains so Angel must think the 442s have more chance of surviving beyond 2019.

 

[asylumxl]

Utter bollocks. The 442s are going to be scrapped in the near future, without a doubt.

They won't even need to be melted down, as they're more than capable of doing it by themselves .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the general consensus is that elderly units from "the Southern provinces" ( I've been waiting to use that phrase for ages) are thought to be heading up north, I would rather it would be to Booths in Rotherham than on was is currently the Northern Rail network.

 

[Lrd]

You can be any man you want to be, but I am 'doing the honours'!

Did your parents never teach you to share?

 

[Matt Taylor]

The first 319 was completed in summer 1987 I believe, the first 442 was completed in November 1987 so the two classes are almost exactly the same age.

 

[David Goddard]

Time for a rescue plan for these then (clearly theoretical fantasy so don't start all the reasons why it couldn't be done - the only real reason lets face it is value for money):

1. Find some under-used diesel locos and pair with 442s to make push-pulls which can go anywhere.

2. Get on and electrify Crowthorne - Ash and Guildford - Reigate and use them for new regional services across the South such as
Reading - Guildford - Redhill - Ashford International - Ramsgate
Reading - Guildford - Redhill - Gatwick Airport - Brighton
Reading - Guildford - Portsmouth
Then link in further services from Watford to the destinations above to connect across the south and also with major routes to the West and North

3. Modify half to AC and run in semi-permanently formed ten car rakes of Powered + Unpowered, ideal for say Norwich (portion for Yarmouth anyone?) or Kings Lynn services

I'm not mad, I just think outside of the box

 

[GatwickDepress]

Can I have one for my own personal Ore - Hastings shuttle please?

 

[David Goddard]

Can I have one for my own personal Ore - Hastings shuttle please?

Only if you do a peak hour extension to Ashford International

 

[SF-02]

And what about some for the Medway valley line to free up some 3/4 coach 375's? It's already third rail and the doors wont present a problem. Any other routes they could do for SE?

Even as a small fleet if the choice is scrap them or get a few years' life out of them and free up units to lengthen other routes it might be worth a go?

 

[Domh245]

Only if you do a peak hour extension to Ashford International

Accelerate up to 108mph through ore and then coast all the way to Ashford. Fill the guards compartments with batteries to help with keeping speed up, and install some third rail from Ashford to Appledore to charge up the batteries.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

For those of you who like the 442s so much that you come up with all these schemes to keep them going, here's a simpler one:

Scratch off part of the leading 4 in the numbers so it looks like a 1. Then they'll go on forever.:roll::roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For those of you who like the 442s so much that you come up with all these schemes to keep them going, here's a simpler one:

Scratch off part of the leading 4 in the numbers so it looks like a 1. Then they'll go on forever.:roll::roll:

Harking back to a certain pantomime, does the "Genie of the Lamp" still hold a consultancy role with Angel Trains....."New trains for old"

 

[Class172]

We still appear to be awaiting the origin of the rumour... :roll:

 

[455driver]

Did your parents never teach you to share?

Yes but some things are not for sharing!

 

[O L Leigh]

If the general consensus is that elderly units from "the Southern provinces" ( I've been waiting to use that phrase for ages) are thought to be heading up north.

You mean like all that rolling stock that was previously being used in the Midlands and North that has found it's way onto the GEML...?

O L Leigh