Single carriageway roads have bad accident rates because overtaking is a dangerous maneuver on them.
Overtaking is not dangerous.
Driving your vehicle in a manner where you cannot be sure that you can avoid a collision is dangerous.
Single carriageway roads have bad accident rates because overtaking is a dangerous maneuver on them.
That's a lot of generalisation in one sentence.
Your second sentence says that all driving is dangerous; and contradicts your first.Overtaking is not dangerous.
Driving your vehicle in a manner where you cannot be sure that you can avoid a collision is dangerous.
Drivers who choose to be ‘bad’ drivers are far less scary than those who can’t help it.This is born out by the fact that taxi drivers - people who drive long hours - are observably the worst drivers on the road
Of course you can - you know how long the move will make and ensure that you can see far enough to be sure that distance will be clear! (You are actually arguing that speed limiters would be dangerous there btw!).Overtaking on a single carriageway is inherently dangerous because you cannot be sure that the road ahead will remain clear whilst you are on the "wrong" side of the road.
But that's got nothing to do with age.Drivers who choose to be ‘bad’ drivers are far less scary than those who can’t help it. ...
If vehicles had a perfect knowledge of their environment and what the correct speed is it might be plausible, but as it stands, no.
My current car has a forward-facing camera to pick up speed limits and display them on the dashboard (and then warn when current speed is above the limit). Naturally you’d say that could be turned into the automated limiter system proposed. But the number of times it gets that wrong, such as not realising the end of restrictions on the matrix sign applies or picking up the 5mph limit on the building site next to the road I’m on, don’t give confidence.
There have been innumerable accidents caused by vehicles pulling out of concealed side roads and entries into the path of an overtaking vehicle whose driver has not bothered to look left before pulling out.Drivers who choose to be ‘bad’ drivers are far less scary than those who can’t help it.
Of course you can - you know how long the move will make and ensure that you can see far enough to be sure that distance will be clear! (You are actually arguing that speed limiters would be dangerous there btw!).
You mention "dodgy roads and/or dodgy driving standards" in the context of there being autonomous cars already in use in the US. Whilst there are areas in the US where driving is generally quite tame and respectful, no doubt made easier by the roads there having a considerable amount of land take, but there is plenty of very poor driving - especially away from busy metropolitan areas where driving is more employment functional that optional/leisure based. Not only can driving standards be poor in their opwn right, but also there are many areas where there is scant regard for any legal obligatons on road users including the safety condition of vehicles and the effects of alcohol when driving. Even an autonomous car doesn't always ensure that brakes, suspension, tyres and lights are in a safe condition.... Now early on he makes the concession that the technology is not going to work, at least yet, in countries where there are dodgy roads and/or dodgy driving standards but equally the technology is functional. Autonomous cars are driving around as we speak in a city in Arizona! ...
You mention "dodgy roads and/or dodgy driving standards" in the context of there being autonomous cars already in use in the US. Whilst there are areas in the US where driving is generally quite tame and respectful, no doubt made easier by the roads there having a considerable amount of land take, but there is plenty of very poor driving - especially away from busy metropolitan areas where driving is more employment functional that optional/leisure based. Not only can driving standards be poor in their opwn right, but also there are many areas where there is scant regard for any legal obligatons on road users including the safety condition of vehicles and the effects of alcohol when driving. Even an autonomous car doesn't always ensure that brakes, suspension, tyres and lights are in a safe condition.
Then there's pedestrians, - generally, the US regards roads for vehicles only and injured pedestrians have virtually no defence if they aren't crossing at a place specifically sanctioned for that, indeed, daring to walk on the carriageway can result in prosecution for jaywalking. Such is the US's devotion to motor vehicles, so hardly comparable to the UK or much of Western Europe.
Overtaking on a single carriageway is inherently dangerous because you cannot be sure that the road ahead will remain clear whilst you are on the "wrong" side of the road.
There have been innumerable accidents caused by vehicles pulling out of concealed side roads and entries into the path of an overtaking vehicle whose driver has not bothered to look left before pulling out.
Yes, hence why I didn't say: "We should roll this technology out everywhere immediately". It clearly has some way to go in development terms before such a thing is possible, if it ever is possible. But equally let's not pretend that the technology doesn't exist or isn't mature enough yet to be used. Because it quite clearly is even if it isn't yet suitable for use everywhere.
as opposed to:nice big wide roads on a lovely grid layout with spacious car parking, etc etc.
Apart from the word 'nice' in the first quote, I agree with you, however the position of pedestrians is far more significant that some assume. Here in the UK, pedestrians have the right to use the whole of the public highway (i.e. both pavements and carriageway)* - clearly it is in the pedestrian's own interest to take all reasonable precautions when near moving traffic!Here in the UK few if any of our cities benefit from such car friendly designs (and that's no bad thing!).
Personally, I only overtake motor vehicles on 2 lane single carriageways if I am very familiar with the road, and so know that this is not going to be an issue, so yes, it is possible to be pretty much sure that the road is going to be clear for the duration of the manoeuvre.There have been innumerable accidents caused by vehicles pulling out of concealed side roads and entries into the path of an overtaking vehicle whose driver has not bothered to look left before pulling out.
Yup. If a concerted campaign was to be launched by other road users, it could deter most drivers letting the autonomous car make decisions.I can just imagine joggers’ behaviour once they realise the cars can’t be aggressive - big long queue as they all trundle along behind the jogger insisting on staying in the road!
Presumably the computers will be programmed to be really cautious so they won’t ever overtake cyclists on the back roads either.
As for once kids and youth realise they can pretend to walk out and cause emergency braking that will scare the hell out of the dozing/reading ‘driver’.
Have you never driven along a road looking for a side road which you have only found when fairly close to it, certainly far closed than would be safe if you were doing a decent overtaking speed, overtaking is far more dangerous than not.Yes you can. If you can see the road is clear for sufficient distance to complete the overtaking manoeuvre, and you know that there are no side roads joining
In which case the overtaking driver could not be sure, as there was a side road joining.
A bigger danger is people coming from abroad to live here with a licence issued by their originating country. Some driving tests are far easier than UK tests, so some immigrants driving skills are woeful. DVLA should be more picky about which foreign licences are allowed to be exchanged for UK licences.Personally my vote is for a much higher standard of driving test, with compulsory retakes every 5 years. That would sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Wait are you saying I can do 79 on a motorway with out getting find?I've often wondered why cars aren't limited to 80 mph, (given enforcement of a 70 road doesn't start until 79mph).
Depends on the circumstances.Wait are you saying I can do 79 on a motorway with out getting find?
I was on the M25 yesterday, speed cameras every few miles, can see the lines on the road and the yellow smart cameras on the gantries at the side, people shooting through well over 70.Depends on the circumstances.
It used to be the case that most county Police forces wouldn't bother you for less than 80mph on a clear motorway as long as there were no other aggravating factors. These days, it depends on what the speed cameras are set to.
I think that speedometers on private vehicles have to be accurate to within 10% of the actual speed, so if you are actually doing 70mph your speedo could show anything between 63-77mph. As most overestimate, if your's shows 79mph then it's likely that you are doing a bit less than that.
Wait are you saying I can do 79 on a motorway with out getting find?
Speedometers must never under-read. Comparing to a GPS can be informative. If you can find a straight road where you can do a steady speed.I think that speedometers on private vehicles have to be accurate to within 10% of the actual speed, so if you are actually doing 70mph your speedo could show anything between 63-77mph. As most overestimate, if your's shows 79mph then it's likely that you are doing a bit less than that.
Speedometers must never under-read. Comparing to a GPS can be informative. If you can find a straight road where you can do a steady speed.
Overtaking is not dangerous.
I was on the M25 yesterday, speed cameras every few miles, can see the lines on the road and the yellow smart cameras on the gantries at the side, people shooting through well over 70.
Made me wonder whether the cameras don't work, or they're using a company / hire car and think they get away with it
That's a massive can of worms opened! One can construct a perfectly reasoned argument to say that *any* overtaking move on a single-carriageway road involves more risk than not doing it, that level of added risk varying of course according to how competent the overtaking driver is.
I'd certainly subscribe to the view that overtaking on single-carriageway roads should certainly be something we should endeavour to minimise, one way of doing that is of course for people not to drive unreasonably slowly causing cars behind to want to pass.
It is rather. It is worth considering that doing a lot of miles can make you complacent and arrogant and thus a worse driver than one who does moderate mileage. This is born out by the fact that taxi drivers - people who drive long hours - are observably the worst drivers on the road.
This was actually the whole basis behind two recent changes with regard to single carriageways - the increase (in England) of the national speed limit for lorries from 40 to 50mph, and the reduction in the limit on many such roads (but not on a blanket basis) to 50mph. These two together near enough remove any need to overtake on single carriageways (give or take cyclists, tractors and Sunday drivers*), which if executed properly isn't dangerous, but does pose the greatest risk of an error of judgement causing an accident with a very high (potentially 120mph+) closing speed, and thus a very serious one likely to result in multiple fatalities.
Even without the drop in limit, most people will happily sit at 50 behind a lorry, but not 40.
* Which goes back to your point - it is true that "it is not a target, it is a limit", but equally "failure to make progress" is a driving test fault, and so people should drive at a safe speed for the conditions (accepting that judgement on that will vary a bit), and not say at 30mph in a 60mph limit on a main road, unless there are other reasons for that speed to be sensible e.g. fog or flooding/heavy rain. Because frustration causes accidents - it shouldn't, but it does, and road safety has to take into account what people do, not just what they should do.
The latter point is interesting. Private hire drivers for sure can be horrific, however stuff like London black cabs I'd say most are fairly competent. Some have terrible attitude for sure, but when it comes to safety I'd say they're not the worst by a long I was reading somewhere recently there has been some clamour to reduce motorway speed limits to 60 mph during conditions of heavy rainfall. I tend to disagree with that sort of thing, as these decisions really are left to judgement. If people don't have the right judgement then they shouldn't be on the road in the first place. But of course emotion rules - "my car is my lifeline" stuff means there would never be a sensible debate on that score.
In reality that debate probably won't be necessary, because by the time this has been faffed about with for long enough almost all motorways will be smart motorways, and so the control room can just drop the limit if they see potentially dangerous conditions (e.g. heavy rain) on the CCTV.
In this country, speed limits don't tend to adjust for local road conditions - e.g. it is rare to have a speed limit drop at a sharp bend, instead it is left to drivers to read the road. I think this would fit very much into that - somebody doing 70mph through standing water is probably 'driving without due care and attention' even if they are not breaking the speed limit. I can see the logic of using variable speed limit in these situations on motorways, if it is apparent that drivers aren't taking appropriate action.You're probably right that this what will happen, however for me this is a pretty terrible "solution". What happens when someone encounters standing water which the control room hadn't seen?
I was on the M25 yesterday, speed cameras every few miles, can see the lines on the road and the yellow smart cameras on the gantries at the side, people shooting through well over 70.
Made me wonder whether the cameras don't work, or they're using a company / hire car and think they get away with it
That's a massive can of worms opened! One can construct a perfectly reasoned argument to say that *any* overtaking move on a single-carriageway road involves more risk than not doing it, that level of added risk varying of course according to how competent the overtaking driver is.
The increase from 50 to 60 in motorway roadworks had a similar basis in part
Remember the EU are intent on introducing "intelligent" speed limiters on all new cars in 2022 and I suspect the UK will follow suit to keep life simple.
I assume such a system would be reliant on GPS, basic sat-nav to determine direction of travel, location and therefore which road you are on plus the camera systems many new cars have to 'read' roadsigns as they are passed.
If that happens then it won't take many new cars on the road equipped with this technology to effectively force all other cars to slow down.