Speed limiters on new build cars

[bspahh]

On the other hand I find driving on Autobahnen far safer than on UK motorways, therefore perhaps derestriction should come back to the UK.

Might even be a traffic driver to the railways!

The Autobahns don't have many accidents. They do have very very big ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand I find driving on Autobahnen far safer than on UK motorways, therefore perhaps derestriction should come back to the UK.

Might even be a traffic driver to the railways!

It is not about how you feel it is, it is about fact as found in the accident stats. And those are bad because of the massive speed differentials.

 

[DC1989]

It's quite amazing that you can get a fleet of commercial e-scooters that are geofenced to only be allowed within certain areas, geofenced to be allowed to only be parked in certain areas and installed speed limiters. Yet you can't do it on cars. You can get in a 2 ton truck right now and drive on the pavement at 50/75/100mph if you wanted and nothing in the truck would stop you. You can park that truck on a pavement completely blocking the pavement for pedestrians etc and the truck would simply let you.

 

[JamesT]

It's quite amazing that you can get a fleet of commercial e-scooters that are geofenced to only be allowed within certain areas, geofenced to be allowed to only be parked in certain areas and installed speed limiters. Yet you can't do it on cars. You can get in a 2 ton truck right now and drive on the pavement at 50/75/100mph if you wanted and nothing in the truck would stop you. You can park that truck on a pavement completely blocking the pavement for pedestrians etc and the truck would simply let you.

e-scooter geofencing doesn't prevent people riding them on the pavements. It's also frequently inaccurate so that the place you have to park doesn't match the painted box. The speed limiter is also a global limit, not one that adapts to differing situations like motor vehicles have to deal with. There's nothing to stop someone abandoning an e-scooter in the middle of the pavement.

 

[DC1989]

I've only ridden an e-scooter once and as soon I went outside the area it just ground to a halt

My point really is that if you can install some of this (extremley basic) tech in a £300 scooter you can certainly do it on a 50k range rover

 

[tomuk]

I've only ridden an e-scooter once and as soon I went outside the area it just ground to a halt

My point really is that if you can install some of this (extremley basic) tech in a £300 scooter you can certainly do it on a 50k range rover

But why would you want to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's quite amazing that yocou can get a fleet of commercial e-scooters that are geofenced to only be allowed within certain areas, geofenced to be allowed to only be parked in certain areas and installed speed limiters. Yet you can't do it on cars. You can get in a 2 ton truck right now and drive on the pavement at 50/75/100mph if you wanted and nothing in the truck would stop you. You can park that truck on a pavement completely blocking the pavement for pedestrians etc and the truck would simply let you.

If you can't see the clear safety difference between a scooter incorrectly losing power (as they sometimes do, because GPS isn't 100% accurate) while pootling down a cycle path at 13mph and a car losing power at 70mph in lane 4 of the M1, then I can only assume you aren't a driver.

Furthermore if you think consumer quality GPS can differentiate between the road and the adjacent pavement then you don't know much about GPS either!

And if you think trucks weigh 2 tons (or tonnes, they're quite similar in weight) then you don't know about trucks either! That's a typical medium sized car.

 

[DC1989]

If you can't see the clear safety difference between a scooter incorrectly losing power (as they sometimes do, because GPS isn't 100% accurate) while pootling down a cycle path at 13mph and a car losing power at 70mph in lane 4 of the M1, then I can only assume you aren't a driver.

Furthermore if you think consumer quality GPS can differentiate between the road and the adjacent pavement then you don't know much about GPS either!

Who said that a car should go from 70 to 0?

But why would you want to?

Why would I want to prevent a range rover going 120mph in a urban environment? Why wouldn't you?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who said that a car should go from 70 to 0?

Any loss of power in an outside lane of a motorway is really, really dangerous.

If you don't know that, you clearly aren't a driver.

Why would I want to prevent a range rover going 120mph in a urban environment? Why wouldn't you?

It would be desirable but the technology is not good enough to do it without an easy and intuitive override for when (yes, when, not if) it get it wrong yet.

 

[DC1989]

Any loss of power in an outside lane of a motorway is really, really dangerous.

If you don't know that, you clearly aren't a driver.

I said who said that? You seem to be debating with a argument you yourself have created

 

[Bletchleyite]

I said who said that? You seem to be debating with a argument you yourself have created

OK, so what exactly are you proposing, and how would you ensure your Rangie being limited to 30mph for instance on the residential street here:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

couldn't cause it to accidentally become limited to 30mph on the adjacent motorway here:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

...given that GPS's accuracy can be somewhat variable at best, particularly if there are trees or it's cloudy or stormy?

Limiters are definitely a good idea, but GPS isn't good enough to do them without an easy override (of flooring the throttle if you lose power) and won't be for a few years yet, though it will get there.

 

[tomuk]

Why would I want to prevent a range rover going 120mph in a urban environment? Why wouldn't you?

Who is regularly driving around urban areas at 120mph? One case of an idiot drink/drug driver is splashed across the media and the answer id to put limiters on everything.

 

[JamesT]

I said who said that? You seem to be debating with a argument you yourself have created

I've only ridden an e-scooter once and as soon I went outside the area it just ground to a halt

My point really is that if you can install some of this (extremley basic) tech in a £300 scooter you can certainly do it on a 50k range rover

That seems to be a suggestion that a car should 'grind to a halt' when outside an allowed area in the same way the e-scooter does. If that's not what you mean, perhaps you could try expressing your suggestion in a clearer way.
The speed limit for e-scooters of 15.5mph is a UK one, whereas many EU nations have chosen a limit of 20kph (12.5mph). Do the limiters on e-scooters work out where you are to apply the correct speed, or are they merely set to the fastest possible where they're sold? The big German car manufacturers electronically limit their cars to 155mph as that's an entirely legitimate speed to be doing on some autobahn sections.

 

[DC1989]

My point is simply that there are technological means available today to prevent many of the 1500 deaths on UK roads and that they should be explored. Motorways are generally already extremely safe so I don't think much needs to be done there

I would propose much sterner sentences for people convicted of car crimes, especially repeat offenders (how many times have Katie Price been banned from driving?!) I think that driving should be a privilege and not a right.

I would support national simplified speed limits, so you are not suddenly going from a 30 to 40 back to a 30 etc

I would propose each car to contain a black box so any serious crashes can be investigated post event (I think this is already planned though) - I would hope this could clear up any crashes where the stock response of 'I didn't see them' could be cleared up (eg you couldn't see them but you were doing 40 in a 20 so of course you couldn't)

I would propose a full inquiry to any death by auto on UK roads that would involve all parties (police, highway engineers, local authority etc) and that there is a public report available to anyone to read what occured and what suggestions are to prevent it from happening again. Hopefully over time this would lead to 'hotspots' being found and junction redesign that is forgiving to genuine human error

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point is simply that there are technological means available today to prevent many of the 1500 deaths on UK roads and that they should be explored. Motorways are generally already extremely safe so I don't think much needs to be done there

I don't think you're quite getting what I was saying about motorways.

Consumer GPS is not very accurate, and it gets a lot less accurate when the weather is bad. Thus, if there's a 30mph road crossing or alongside a motorway, it's very likely a car on the motorway will wrongly see a 30mph limit and lose power. If you don't believe me try driving around with satnav on and see how often you get 30 speed warnings when doing 70 perfectly legally on a motorway.

I do agree there's too much speed-limit yo-yoing on many roads. I would reduce NSL for single carriageways to 50 and non-motorway duals to 60, which would almost eliminate overtaking (bar cyclists and tractors), but if a road needs 40, just stick 40 on a longer stretch and don't yo-yo it.

 

[tomuk]

My point is simply that there are technological means available today to prevent many of the 1500 deaths on UK roads and that they should be explored. Motorways are generally already extremely safe so I don't think much needs to be done there

Would they prevent many deaths? The EU diretive that is driving these new controls is based on a 'zero deaths by 2050' . I just don't believe that's possible driving is dangerous you have human being piloting themselves about in +1000kg metal boxes, stuff will go wrong.

I would propose much sterner sentences for people convicted of car crimes, especially repeat offenders (how many times have Katie Price been banned from driving?!) I think that driving should be a privilege and not a right.

She should have been sent to a proper rehab years ago. Somehow she appears to be able to get the right lawyers.

I would support national simplified speed limits, so you are not suddenly going from a 30 to 40 back to a 30 etc

Where is this happening? In my experience the country is full of inappropriate lower limits put in by councillors who want the votes.

I would propose each car to contain a black box so any serious crashes can be investigated post event (I think this is already planned though) - I would hope this could clear up any crashes where the stock response of 'I didn't see them' could be cleared up (eg you couldn't see them but you were doing 40 in a 20 so of course you couldn't)

I suppose it will make the polices job easier but is doing 40 in a 20 just an easy excuse for a post accident fine?

I would propose a full inquiry to any death by auto on UK roads that would involve all parties (police, highway engineers, local authority etc) and that there is a public report available to anyone to read what occured and what suggestions are to prevent it from happening again. Hopefully over time this would lead to 'hotspots' being found and junction redesign that is forgiving to genuine human error

That's what the police and coroner are for.

 

[DC1989]

Would they prevent many deaths? The EU diretive that is driving these new controls is based on a 'zero deaths by 2050' . I just don't believe that's possible driving is dangerous you have human being piloting themselves about in +1000kg metal boxes, stuff will go wrong.

I agree that zero is unlikely but then I suppose we may have 99% self driving cars by 2050! Even if zeros unattainable the death rate can surely be much reduced

I suppose it will make the polices job easier but is doing 40 in a 20 just an easy excuse for a post accident fine?

Yes but if combined much harsher sentences for repeat offenders it should act as somewhat more of a deterrent. I would also hope for more than a fine if they've injured someone though!

That's what the police and coroner are for.

I'm not an expert on this but isn't the police report simply for them to find out if a crime was committed and by whom. Do they make recommendations on junction/ road redesign etc

Is the coroner's recommendations legally binding? I think any independent post crash investigation should make legally binding recommendations

 

[JamesT]

I'm not an expert on this but isn't the police report simply for them to find out if a crime was committed and by whom. Do they make recommendations on junction/ road redesign etc

Is the coroner's recommendations legally binding? I think any independent post crash investigation should make legally binding recommendations

https://road.cc/sites/default/files/Prevention of Future Deaths report.pdf is an example of a coroner's report where they make recommendations on improving the design of cycle lanes to improve safety. Though it's relatively generic so doesn't state a specific change to be made.
I would be wary of making coroner's recommendations binding. They're not necessarily experts in every field, so who's to say their recommendation is the correct one? How soon after the report would the highways authority be responsible for implementing this? Where does the budget for making the changes come from? If it's a legal obligation, does it take priority over other schemes, which might make much bigger improvements in safety?

 

[tomuk]

Is the coroner's recommendations legally binding? I think any independent post crash investigation should make legally binding recommendations

Luckily no as coroners are not experts on anythiing. There is the new Road Safety Investigation Branch RSIB that has been setup to investigate accidents and make recommendations. Due to the large number of accidents it won't as such investigate individual accidents but look at existing evidence.

 

[typefish]

It is not about how you feel it is, it is about fact as found in the accident stats. And those are bad because of the massive speed differentials.

The thing that is often ignored when looking at Autobahn accident stats is the position of Germany.

You're either going to Ireland, IOM or staying within the UK if you use the UK motorway network.

There is basically a requirement to go through Germany if you wish to go from one side of Europe to another.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing that is often ignored when looking at Autobahn accident stats is the position of Germany.

You're either going to Ireland, IOM or staying within the UK if you use the UK motorway network.

There is basically a requirement to go through Germany if you wish to go from one side of Europe to another.

I'm not sure why that would have any bearing on the accident statistics. If you mean "there are more accidents because it's busier", because it's distributed I doubt it is busier than say the M25, but if it is you could use a "KSI* per vehicle journey" statistic or similar, and it would still be far, far worse than the UK.

In the UK if you're a bit inattentive and go into the back of a lorry at 70mph it's going to hurt (speed differential 24mph). If you do it in Germany at 120mph (a typical Autobahn speed in the premium German cars), a 64mph differential, pretty much no such accident will be survivable, and you're more likely to because long stretches of the Autobahnen are 2 lanes each way, and those that aren't are often windier and less well developed than UK motorways.

I really think the case for them not applying the near standard 130km/h (about 80mph) limit most of Europe uses is very weak indeed. It is indeed like guns in the US (and in a way has a similar effect).

You could then mandate the installation of a non-overrideable 130km/h top speed limiter on all new road-legal cars sold in Europe.

* Killed/Seriously Injured.

 

[bspahh]

In the UK if you're a bit inattentive and go into the back of a lorry at 70mph it's going to hurt (speed differential 24mph). If you do it in Germany at 120mph (a typical Autobahn speed in the premium German cars), a 64mph differential, pretty much no such accident will be survivable, and you're more likely to because long stretches of the Autobahnen are 2 lanes each way, and those that aren't are often windier and less well developed than UK motorways.

The speed differential is 14 mph between 70 and 56mph.

I worked in Germany in 1989. On the A2 near Hannover there is a long hill with a gradient of about 1 in 15. It had 2 lanes and no hard shoulder. Halfway up it there is a parking area.

I used to cruise at 90mph, but on the hill my speed dropped to about 80mph.

Once when I was overtaken on this hill by a Porsche doing over 120mph. Exactly one week later, I overtook a Mercedes 200D (54bhp) with a caravan, and 4 bicycles, and as it "accelerated" out of the parking area. It was going 15-20mph.

I was used to leaving a 2 second gap when you overtake before pulling in. In Germany, the culture was to count 2 seconds after the back of your car had past the front of the one you were overtaking before pulling in. If you didn't, you would have an angry BMW 6 inches from the bumper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The speed differential is 14 mph between 70 and 56mph.

Sorry, a mathematically challenged morning! That actually makes my point stronger, though - a 14mph crash, provided it doesn't fling you into a spin or roll, is eminently survivable. You'd likely, if you hit the lorry square on, just badly dent your bonnet and dump your coolant all over the road but still be able to get over to the hard shoulder safely. The lorry driver might not even notice.

I worked in Germany in 1989. On the A2 near Hannover there is a long hill with a gradient of about 1 in 15. It had 2 lanes and no hard shoulder. Halfway up it there is a parking area.

I used to cruise at 90mph, but on the hill my speed dropped to about 80mph.

Once when I was overtaken on this hill by a Porsche doing over 120mph. Exactly one week later, I overtook a Mercedes 200D (54bhp) with a caravan, and 4 bicycles, and as it "accelerated" out of the parking area. It was going 15-20mph.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind. Of course the UK does have 70mph roads like that - such as most of Milton Keynes, and plenty of other rural dual carriageway A-roads - but those roads have a very poor safety record compared to the UK's motorway system so aren't really relevant to the discussion - and Germany has that sort of road too, typically with a 110km/h limit which is about 70.

I was used to leaving a 2 second gap when you overtake before pulling in. In Germany, the culture was to count 2 seconds after the back of your car had past the front of the one you were overtaking before pulling in. If you didn't, you would have an angry BMW 6 inches from the bumper.

2 seconds is actually pretty generous when you consider the behaviour of BMW and Audi drivers in the UK - mostly I find they're starting to pass before I've even fully left the lane, which removes my ability to abort if someone in Lane 1 tries to move to Lane 2 at the same time, which is a terribly selfish and dangerous practice.

 

[gg1]

2 seconds is actually pretty generous when you consider the behaviour of BMW and Audi drivers in the UK - mostly I find they're starting to pass before I've even fully left the lane, which removes my ability to abort if someone in Lane 1 tries to move to Lane 2 at the same time, which is a terribly selfish and dangerous practice.

I've known them undertake me on a few occasions when I've had the audacity to wait until there's a reasonable stopping distance between me and the car I've just overtaken before pulling in.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely there is, in effect, a need for two limiters? There should be a hard limiter set at perhaps 80mph which cannot be overridden* but then a soft limiter like has been described above where it will limit the vehicle to what has been identified as the speed limit but can be overridden quickly and simply by flooring the accelerator or similar due to possible flaws in the system. The former deals with incidents like that 120mph down an urban street and also deals with the reality that there is no reason, that I can think of, for a random member of the public to be able to go faster than 80mph. Whilst the latter helps deal with the wider issue of not abiding to speed limits more generally but in a way which doesn't have safety implications (the GPS misreading the location and limiting you to 30 when you're on a motorway).

*I'd perhaps make an exception for track days and whatnot. Either by having race tracks geofenced as areas where the limiter doesn't apply or by allowing for a mechanic to disable the limiter whilst on race track grounds. Having the limiter disabled outside of that situation would be a criminal offence and an insurance invalidator of course however!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've known them undertake me on a few occasions when I've had the audacity to wait until there's a reasonable stopping distance between me and the car I've just overtaken before pulling in.

I've had that too. I will not pull in until I am a safe stopping distance ahead of the car I am overtaking on a motorway or dual carriageway, and I will not pull in at all if the gap between two vehicles on the left does not allow for a safe stopping distance both behind and ahead of me, rather I will overtake both then pull in after. It would be unnecessary risk for both me and the driver I'm overtaking in order to placate the impatience of the idiot behind. I also hate it when others do that to me thinking they're doing the right thing - they're not.

 

[typefish]

I'm not sure why that would have any bearing on the accident statistics. If you mean "there are more accidents because it's busier", because it's distributed I doubt it is busier than say the M25, but if it is you could use a "KSI* per vehicle journey" statistic or similar, and it would still be far, far worse than the UK.

In the UK if you're a bit inattentive and go into the back of a lorry at 70mph it's going to hurt (speed differential 24mph). If you do it in Germany at 120mph (a typical Autobahn speed in the premium German cars), a 64mph differential, pretty much no such accident will be survivable, and you're more likely to because long stretches of the Autobahnen are 2 lanes each way, and those that aren't are often windier and less well developed than UK motorways.

It's not because it's busier, but more there being a difference in driving standards and vehicle maintenance standards across Europe.

I'm very well aware of people pulling out when I'm making progress on the Autobahn, but then again my car has brakes that are of satisfactory quality that is able to withstand decelerating from 240kph to 70kph in a relatively short distance, so I don't really mind that all that much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm very well aware of people pulling out when I'm making progress on the Autobahn, but then again my car has brakes that are of satisfactory quality that is able to withstand decelerating from 240kph to 70kph in a relatively short distance, so I don't really mind that all that much.

While your car is clearly designed for and capable of that, it only takes a second's distraction for those speed differentials to become deadly. That's the issue and is why the Autobahnen are so dangerous.

You clearly find it fun. I find it terrifying - in Germany it's rail or rail for me. It is also awful for CO2 emissions.

130km/h is quite fast enough for anyone to be driving unless they've booked a track day or are on the Nuerburgring. If you want to travel at 240km/h, go to the station and take the ICE.

 

[Mawkie]

It's been widely reported today that Liz Truss would consider making speed limits advisory on motorways - which seems to fly in the face of safety and the environment. (Admittedly, at this point La Truss will say literally anything to anyone to get the votes.)

 

[AM9]

.

It's been widely reported today that Liz Truss would consider making speed limits advisory on motorways - which seems to fly in the face of safety and the environment. (Admittedly, at this point La Truss will say literally anything to anyone to get the votes.)

I wonder how many of those that heard that throwaway comment would see that as a point against her. So it could be counterproductive.