speeding up existing services with a bulldozer

[A0wen]

My point stands, that's clearly not a 'simple single change', and also comes with an additional cost over and above your tickets.

Well it is a single change - get off at one station, taken directly to the next, get on next train. And most taxi ranks are far closer to the mainline platforms than the tube lines.

There is an additional cost, but frankly if you're making a long distance journey it won't be cheap regardless - and the likelihood is taxis are being used *somewhere* on the journey in any case.

 

[Bald Rick]

My point, however, was that we need much smaller and practical projects that can be completed at much lower cost and a lot quicker. Projects like Werrington might be an example. How long did that take from conception to opening and at what cost?

grade separation at Werrington was ‘conceived’ a long time ago, however in the incarnation that was built it was the best part of a decade and £200m.

Would a 3 to 4 km straight line avoiding the sharp curve through Wellingborough be worth a look? My Landranger sheet 152, 1999 edition, suggests there is not much built up on the route that a straight line would take. Of course it may have changed radically since then, and a tunnel might be required.

your map is very out of date. A rather large extension of Wellingborough is now in the way (Stanton Cross). the land was allocated for housing in 1999, and much of it is under construction now.
It’s not easy tunnelling country there either; it would have to go under the Nene flood plain.

*** sorry - thought I posted this all last night ***

 

[MattRat]

On a technical point, you can already run a direct train from Dover to Norwich and every radial mainline in between via the West London and North London lines without going into a single London Terminal. If you're after a bit more adventure then you'll also soon have Tonbridge-Redhill-Guildford-Reading-Oxford-Bletchley-Bedford (+Leicester-Peterborough-Ely-Norwich) albeit with a reversal at Redhill.

Where does your proposed line fit in between those two options?

Well I'll admit perhaps I was a bit too general, although the problem is existing lines themselves are a bit of a mess. Each route proposed would end up with it's own challenges to tackle. There just isn't one line that connects everything along the South Coast.

 

[zwk500]

Well I'll admit perhaps I was a bit too general, although the problem is existing lines themselves are a bit of a mess. Each route proposed would end up with it's own challenges to tackle. There just isn't one line that connects everything along the South Coast.

You can't build a single line that serves all things. Which flows do you think need to be served that currently aren't?

 

[MattRat]

You can't build a single line that serves all things. Which flows do you think need to be served that currently aren't?

Well, you can't get to Dover from the North without a change, as far as I'm aware, and that would be the 'simplest'. However, while you can get to Brighton and Southampton from the North via XC, it doesn't go along the 'fastest' route, and if it could access the WCML and ECML to go there somehow, the journey would be quicker, albeit more complicated to implement.

 

[zwk500]

Well, you can't get to Dover from the North without a change, as far as I'm aware, and that would be the 'simplest'. However, while you can get to Brighton and Southampton from the North via XC, it doesn't go along the 'fastest' route, and if it could access the WCML and ECML to go there somehow, the journey would be quicker, albeit more complicated to implement.

We're about 2 steps away from suggesting these services run with Class 47s on Load 7 with Mk2 Aircons....

Who would get your new fast services? Where in 'the North' would they run? Why is building a new direct line any better than the current offering Brighton and Dover both have of fast, frequent services to St Pancras which is within 10 mins of ECML, MML and WCML? Southampton has direct XC services to Birmingham and Manchester already.

 

[MattRat]

We're about 2 steps away from suggesting these services run with Class 47s on Load 7 with Mk2 Aircons....

Who would get your new fast services? Where in 'the North' would they run? Why is building a new direct line any better than the current offering Brighton and Dover both have of fast, frequent services to St Pancras which is within 10 mins of ECML, MML and WCML? Southampton has direct XC services to Birmingham and Manchester already.

You've clearly never been on an XC service, and you've clearly never had a change at London. How do I reason against someone like that?

 

[zwk500]

You've clearly never been on an XC service, and you've clearly never had a change at London. How do I reason against someone like that?

Wrong on both Fronts, as it happens! I've got XC services between Birmingham and Sheffield/Leeds/York, with all the fun that involves. But XC's problem is clearly not the route or journey length but train capacity, given how crowded they regularly are. The solution to that is to lengthen the trains (and rejig the interiors of the Voyagers).
I also used to regularly travel between Lewes/Brighton and York, and now regularly travel between Lewes/Brighton and Milton Keynes. I've done BML to ECML/WCML plenty of times via both Thameslink and the Victoria line. The sense I've got is that there are, on average, less than 10 people making the transfer with me between East Croydon and Euston Road. I can tell you, the Victoria line on a Saturday afternoon when you're carrying a bag on each shoulder and a case in each hand is not fun to use. It was worth the same-platform change at Haywards Heath to be able to use Thameslink up to St Pancras for the train from KGX. I used to get a good laugh in the KGX sandwich shop trying to pick up lunch without a spare hand...

You reason with me by answering my questions - which flows would you serve between each side of London?

 

[MattRat]

Wrong on both Fronts, as it happens! I've got XC services between Birmingham and Sheffield/Leeds/York, with all the fun that involves. But XC's problem is clearly not the route or journey length but train capacity, given how crowded they regularly are. The solution to that is to lengthen the trains (and rejig the interiors of the Voyagers).
I also used to regularly travel between Lewes/Brighton and York, and now regularly travel between Lewes/Brighton and Milton Keynes. I've done BML to ECML/WCML plenty of times via both Thameslink and the Victoria line. The sense I've got is that there are, on average, less than 10 people making the transfer with me between East Croydon and Euston Road. I can tell you, the Victoria line on a Saturday afternoon when you're carrying a bag on each shoulder and a case in each hand is not fun to use. It was worth the same-platform change at Haywards Heath to be able to use Thameslink up to St Pancras for the train from KGX. I used to get a good laugh in the KGX sandwich shop trying to pick up lunch without a spare hand...

You reason with me by answering my questions - which flows would you serve between each side of London?

I still think XC would be better served by going on either the ECML, or WCML, dependent on journey, and going through or around London to then use either Southern or South Western tracks. Then you have places served by Southeastern that could be connected to the WCML and ECML with a through service, so people on those lines don't have to change in London. I suppose this is a lot of 'new' services, but I don't see why London has to be this thing we can't go around or through to get somewhere. The world simp,y doesn't revolve around London, whether the politicians want to here that or not.

 

[A0wen]

I still think XC would be better served by going on either the ECML, or WCML, dependent on journey, and going through or around London to then use either Southern or South Western tracks. Then you have places served by Southeastern that could be connected to the WCML and ECML with a through service, so people on those lines don't have to change in London. I suppose this is a lot of 'new' services, but I don't see why London has to be this thing we can't go around or through to get somewhere. The world simp,y doesn't revolve around London, whether the politicians want to here that or not.

Well given most of South Eastern's main stations have services to HS1 which gives them services to Stratford and St Pancras which means an easy change onto the Midland Mainline and ECML and a 10 minute walk to the WCML and in due course HS2, I think you've got a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Bald Rick]

The world simp,y doesn't revolve around London, whether the politicians want to here that or not.

It doesn’t, but a very significant majority of passengers using routes to London are trying to get there, and not somewhere the other side. You are then in the territory of having to decide whether to use scarce capacity on lines to London for services that serve that very significant majority, or services that don’t.

There’s a reason the through Cross Country services don’t run to Dover and Brighton any more, and that’s because there were very few passengers.

If you want new build across (under) London, so that London can be served en route, then that is very significant expense (for not much custom), and as @zwk500 says, you can only serve one or perhaps two cross London corridors like that. But which one is best?

 

[Meerkat]

Well, you can't get to Dover from the North without a change, as far as I'm aware, and that would be the 'simplest'. However, while you can get to Brighton and Southampton from the North via XC, it doesn't go along the 'fastest' route, and if it could access the WCML and ECML to go there somehow, the journey would be quicker, albeit more complicated to implement.

Who wants to go to Dover? The castle and cliffs are brilliant but the town is a dump.
I am not buying that there is really a market for cross London services that St Pancras doesnt cover. The huge amount of money you would be spending would be better spent adding capacity and speed to the XC route to Southampton.

 

[24Grange]

London Taxi's are crazy expensive compared to a tube or bus fare for the connection

 

[Bigman]

Bulldoze Normanton and rebuild it to full PRM spec with a full track realignment to vastly increase speed, particularly on the Up line.

 

[Falcon1200]

I still think XC would be better served by going on either the ECML, or WCML, dependent on journey, and going through or around London to then use either Southern or South Western tracks. Then you have places served by Southeastern that could be connected to the WCML and ECML with a through service, so people on those lines don't have to change in London.

The issues would surely be, how many people would actually use such services and where would they run, given the number of different possible route and destination combinations north and south of London ? In other words, should trains run between the GEML (Norwich) line, or West Anglia (Cambridge line), ECML, Midland Main line, WCML or Chiltern lines, and the southern routes to Ramsgate, Dover, Hastings, Brighton, Portsmouth or Southampton ? I doubt there is sufficient demand to justify regular services, which would also eat up capacity on the routes mentioned without serving the overwhelmingly major destination, London !

 

[Killingworth]

The issues would surely be, how many people would actually use such services and where would they run, given the number of different possible route and destination combinations north and south of London ? In other words, should trains run between the GEML (Norwich) line, or West Anglia (Cambridge line), ECML, Midland Main line, WCML or Chiltern lines, and the southern routes to Ramsgate, Dover, Hastings, Brighton, Portsmouth or Southampton ? I doubt there is sufficient demand to justify regular services, which would also eat up capacity on the routes mentioned without serving the overwhelmingly major destination, London !

Sounds rather like similar reasoning for routes around Manchester. If only there was one central mainline station in both.

Probably a century or two too late for that now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds rather like similar reasoning for routes around Manchester. If only there was one central mainline station in both.

The Windsor Link and other 1990s changes made Piccadilly basically the Hauptbahnhof, with only a very few local routes only served from Victoria, particularly post Metrolink (all you'd see there would be 2-car 150s, 142s and trams). However, due to increasing frequencies causing unreliability at Piccadilly, it is once again more split.

 

[stuu]

The 60mph curve at Crofton on the B&H would save a minute or two if it could be straightened.

 

[A0wen]

London Taxi's are crazy expensive compared to a tube or bus fare for the connection

Depends how many of you are travelling.

To give an example - I recently used a cab between Kings Cross and Victoria (there were 4 of us heading to a hotel at Victoria) and it was about £ 20.

Contactless / Oyster would be £ 2.40 per person, so yes roughly double for the cab.

But *cash* fare (from TFL website) and many unfamiliar travellers will use that is £ 5.50.

It was about convenience - 4 of us all with a bag or case at the beginning of rush hour - it was worth it for the convenience and if travelling with luggage (which most people undertaking longer journeys will have) it makes sense.

Who wants to go to Dover? The castle and cliffs are brilliant but the town is a dump.
I am not buying that there is really a market for cross London services that St Pancras doesnt cover. The huge amount of money you would be spending would be better spent adding capacity and speed to the XC route to Southampton.

And especially when you've also got the access to Kent from St P using HS1. So not only do you have the direct service to the south coast (Brighton) there is access to the Kent coast - so anyone arriving in London from either the ECML or MML only has to change in "one" station (yes, I know that Kings Cross and St Pancras are 'separate' stations, but their are next door to each other and the walk from KX mainline platforms is probably shorter than to some of the tube lines).

 

[Senex]

Bulldoze Normanton and rebuild it to full PRM spec with a full track realignment to vastly increase speed, particularly on the Up line.

The Midland had plans for straight fast lines at Normanton before the First World War. The idea was alive again under BR when this was to be the main route for cross-country trains not just Sheffield to Leeds but also Sheffield to York over the new high-speed junction that was actually put in at Altofts. But then came the decision to switch traffic to the S&K/WR&G route and the rest is history ....

 

[Cowley]

But then came the decision to switch traffic to the S&K/WR&G route and the rest is history ....

I’m not sure what the acronyms are here @Senex?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

S&K might just be the 'Swinton and Knottingley' (now part of the Dearne Valley line in South Yorkshire) and WR&G might be the 'West Riding & Grimsby' line (Wakefield->Doncaster?), but the use of uncommon abbreviations should normally always be explained, as per forum rules.

 

[MattRat]

Sounds rather like similar reasoning for routes around Manchester. If only there was one central mainline station in both.

Probably a century or two too late for that now.

Except Manchester has a through station in Victoria. That station has it's own problems with capacity, and something needs to be done to help it, but it at least exists. Where's London's major through station?

 

[Senex]

I’m not sure what the acronyms are here @Senex?

S&K might just be the 'Swinton and Knottingley' (now part of the Dearne Valley line in South Yorkshire) and WR&G might be the 'West Riding & Grimsby' line (Wakefield->Doncaster?), but the use of uncommon abbreviations should normally always be explained, as per forum rules.

Sorry — my apologies! They do indeed indicate the lines you mention, Wath Road Jn to Ferrybridge, and Doncaster to Wakefield. I thought both (especially S&K) were too well known to need comment, but maybe I had my historian hat too firmly on my head ... (And a somewhat off-topic comment on the side: although perhaps names like these have not been in general circulation for a long time, they do still in many cases remain very much in use in legal material relating to the railways.)

 

[Meerkat]

Where's London's major through station?

St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge

 

[gingertom]

You've clearly never been on an XC service, and you've clearly never had a change at London. How do I reason against someone like that?

my recent experiences were from central Scotland to and from Maidenhead. I used ECML to/from Kings Cross, WCML to/from Euston, all requiring to get to Paddington with luggage during the rush hour. I managed once to get a journey on XC with a change at Wolverhampton, (same platform, next train) and Reading. This latter journey was by far the easiest and stress free of the many I undertook. However the XC train was 4+5 until Birmingham New St, where the 4 car portion was taken off to go somewhere else, resulting in a level of overcrowding which I have never experienced.

 

[RH Liner]

Double as much of the troublesome single track section of the Robin Hood Line between Kirkby-in-Ashfield and Bulwell/Highbury Vale as possible. There are a few passing loops, so upgrade these to full line speed. And strengthen the embankment over the quarry between Mansfield Woodhouse and Shirebrook to allow that section up to full line speed too.

 

[Cowley]

Sorry — my apologies! They do indeed indicate the lines you mention, Wath Road Jn to Ferrybridge, and Doncaster to Wakefield. I thought both (especially S&K) were too well known to need comment, but maybe I had my historian hat too firmly on my head ... (And a somewhat off-topic comment on the side: although perhaps names like these have not been in general circulation for a long time, they do still in many cases remain very much in use in legal material relating to the railways.)

Ah ok no worries. That’s why we try and avoid acronyms really, because although I was interested in what you were saying I just don’t know the area that well.
Carry on!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

A nice bridge across from Talacre to the Wirral to save going all the way round and through Chester would be lovely

 

[MattRat]

A nice bridge across from Talacre to the Wirral to save going all the way round and through Chester would be lovely

But who would operate it?