Split ticket - Connecting train delayed - Court action (Sowerby Bridge - Birmingham journey)

[farleigh]

Great news

 

[Wolfie]

well done, and thanks for coming back to update. They really should apologise and compensate you for the hassle you have had here. I guess worth pressing the train company customer services for that, tho I could understand why you might want no more to do with them!
Just indicates to me that they would rather frighten people with court and hope they will pay up / be found guilty / than pay presecurors to get their evidence correct.

Festive wishes to you Mickyb.

Might be worth engaging with your MP to put pressure on DfT over the issue.

 

[Realfish]

Sorry for the delay. I attended court and this was just to hear my plea. However thr magistrate wanted to hear some of the outlining evidence. Something strange occured, the prosecution used section 9.4 as THEIR evidence. I was baffled, I explained that 9.4 forms the bases of why I was able to be on the next train.....
I was then contacted by email by the prosecutor, who asked if I should now plead guilty as he couldnt find any evidence my train was delayed. Then he got my delay repay compensation docs from Northern Rail. After 3 weeks they have closed the case! I win! I BLOODY WIN!

Brilliant!

Someone else will be able to advise better than me, but this sounds rather incomplete.

If the court proceedings are underway and a date set for a further hearing, can TIL /XC simply throw in the towel in this way, or should it not be done formally through the courts? Surely they cannot simply walk away?

Then, as others have said, there is the issue of costs; to the court and to the OP whose expenses in defending this case and travelling to court cannot have been cheap. Then there is the cost of the anxiety of being accused of and facing a criminal record for something that he was not guilty of. And finally, laughably, a prosecutor seemingly demands that the defendant proves he is not guilty by providing the evidence that (s)he - the prosecutor - should have made certain about before bringing the case. In doing so they turned the fundamental principles of English law on hits head.

This whole saga is so unsatisfactory in so many ways. At the very least, given the prosecutors track record and incompetence, I would want advice from the court; to confirm that the case has actually been withdrawn and what remedies are available to the OP regarding his costs.

 

[Haywain]

If the court proceedings are underway and a date set for a further hearing, can TIL /XC simply throw in the towel in this way, or should it not be done formally through the courts? Surely they cannot simply walk away?

They can just walk away - they simply offer no evidence on the day of the hearing and the case will be dismissed.

 

[Realfish]

They can just walk away - they simply offer no evidence on the day of the hearing and the case will be dismissed.

OK. Which means that the court will bring this to a conclusion. This is not what the OP has seemingly been told:

... After 3 weeks they have closed the case! I win! I BLOODY WIN!

 

[Haywain]

OK. Which means that the court will bring this to a conclusion. This is not what the OP has seemingly been told:

There are various ways this can be done but I answered your question, "Surely they cannot simply walk away?".

 

[WesternLancer]

OK. Which means that the court will bring this to a conclusion. This is not what the OP has seemingly been told:

Yes. I guess 'closed the case' could mean a range of things - from deciding to close the case on the advice of the prosecutor following that court session, and notifying the court that the matter was no longer being pursued etc.

As per advice upthread I think I would ideally want some confirmation from the Court that this was indeed the case, but I assume @Mickyb has something in writing from TIL / TOC that states this, hence his update.

It's on the basis of that, that I'd now be thinking of claiming costs on the basis of the £19 per hour suggested above
eg
- a few hours preparing for the court case, gathering evidence on train running facts, seeking advice re ticket eligibility and conditions etc
- time taken travelling to / from court
- Costs of getting to / from court (I mean you wouldn't risk buying an Advance ticket would you - you'd have to use Anytime to be sure you did not get on the wrong train...)
- Time spent at the court

Must be at least 10 hours worth of time I would think.

I'm guessing there is useful info on web about how to do that, tho I don't know the best source.

 

[Turtle]

Yes. I guess 'closed the case' could mean a range of things - from deciding to close the case on the advice of the prosecutor following that court session, and notifying the court that the matter was no longer being pursued etc.

As per advice upthread I think I would ideally want some confirmation from the Court that this was indeed the case, but I assume @Mickyb has something in writing from TIL / TOC that states this, hence his update.

It's on the basis of that, that I'd now be thinking of claiming costs on the basis of the £19 per hour suggested above
eg
- a few hours preparing for the court case, gathering evidence on train running facts, seeking advice re ticket eligibility and conditions etc
- time taken travelling to / from court
- Costs of getting to / from court (I mean you wouldn't risk buying an Advance ticket would you - you'd have to use Anytime to be sure you did not get on the wrong train...)
- Time spent at the court

Must be at least 10 hours worth of time I would think.

I'm guessing there is useful info on web about how to do that, tho I don't know the best source.

Agreed, particularly with paragraph 2 in view of the Mickey Mouse goings on by the prosecution.

 

[Realfish]

Yes. I guess 'closed the case' could mean a range of things - from deciding to close the case on the advice of the prosecutor following that court session, and notifying the court that the matter was no longer being pursued etc.

As per advice upthread I think I would ideally want some confirmation from the Court that this was indeed the case, but I assume @Mickyb has something in writing from TIL / TOC that states this, hence his update.

It's on the basis of that, that I'd now be thinking of claiming costs on the basis of the £19 per hour suggested above
eg
- a few hours preparing for the court case, gathering evidence on train running facts, seeking advice re ticket eligibility and conditions etc
- time taken travelling to / from court
- Costs of getting to / from court (I mean you wouldn't risk buying an Advance ticket would you - you'd have to use Anytime to be sure you did not get on the wrong train...)
- Time spent at the court

Must be at least 10 hours worth of time I would think.

I'm guessing there is useful info on web about how to do that, tho I don't know the best source.

Thanks for the considered response WL. Hopefully the OP will find your thoughts helpful.

 

[SteveM70]

It's on the basis of that, that I'd now be thinking of claiming costs on the basis of the £19 per hour suggested above
eg
- a few hours preparing for the court case, gathering evidence on train running facts, seeking advice re ticket eligibility and conditions etc
- time taken travelling to / from court
- Costs of getting to / from court (I mean you wouldn't risk buying an Advance ticket would you - you'd have to use Anytime to be sure you did not get on the wrong train...)
- Time spent at the court

You forgot to mention the time of a number of subject matter experts he needed to consult for invaluable advice, via a reputable online forum

 

[Western Sunset]

I would certainly be writing to the CEO (or whoever the chief honcho is) of Cross Country.

Outline your experience
What are they going to do to prevent this happening to others in the future (training issues)
How will they recompense you - not least for your mental anguish

Has anyone actually apologised yet?

 

[WesternLancer]

You forgot to mention the time of a number of subject matter experts he needed to consult for invaluable advice, via a reputable online forum

wrapped up in 'seeking advice' bit - if someone can read the thread from the start and report back on how long that takes and x £19 per hour - hey presto a figure is ready....I bet the Prosecutor charges more than £19 per hour. Maybe someone should pay them to read various threads on here?

 

[packermac]

I do not know enough of Magistrates Court Operations, but I would certainly want something from them in writing that it had been withdrawn rather than relying on anything from the Prosecution side.
If the court appearance has been scheduled and even if they withdraw on the day, could there not be some comeback on the OP from the court for not appearing when scheduled?

 

[Western Sunset]

Some names and an address for XC trains. I'd go for XC in the first instance, rather than TIL.

Tom Joyner (MD)

cc to John Robson (Regional Director W Mids & NW)
Lee Paxton (Network Services Director) - includes customer service training in his remit
Karen Doores (Human Resouce Director) - includes staff development and training

Cross Country Trains Ltd
FREEPOST RRXU-HUEC-GLLY
Cannon House
18 The Priory Queensway
Birmingham
B4 6BS


On their website there's also a "Customer Insight Panel" where you can fill in an online form.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Some names and an address for XC trains. I'd go for XC in the first instance, rather than TIL.

Tom Joyner (MD)

cc to John Robson (Regional Director W Mids & NW)
Lee Paxton (Network Services Director) - includes customer service training in his remit
Karen Doores (Human Resouce Director) - includes staff development and training

Cross Country Trains Ltd
FREEPOST RRXU-HUEC-GLLY
Cannon House
18 The Priory Queensway
Birmingham
B4 6BS


On their website there's also a "Customer Insight Panel" where you can fill in an online form.

To follow on from this CEOmail.com is amazing

 

[Western Sunset]

Excellent.

It does work. We once emailed the CEO of BT about something and they actually replied They cc our email to the relevant Director to sort it out. She rang us up to check everything had been sorted to our satisfaction.

Always go to the top.

 

[Wolfie]

Excellent.

It does work. We once emailed the CEO of BT about something and they actually replied They cc our email to the relevant Director to sort it out. She rang us up to check everything had been sorted to our satisfaction.

Always go to the top.

In which case in parallel tell them the good news that you are going, via your MP, to Grant Shapps. Onto the head of every uncaring MD of an arrogant useless TOC a regular bucket of toilet waste should fall....

 

[MotCO]

Excellent.

It does work. We once emailed the CEO of BT about something and they actually replied They cc our email to the relevant Director to sort it out. She rang us up to check everything had been sorted to our satisfaction.

Always go to the top.

Many years ago I had a problem with Virgin Media, and no amount of emails sorted the problem. I then emailed what I thought would be Richard Branson's email address, and although I did not receive a reply (or a bounce-back), the problem was fixed!

Also a friend had a problem with a Virgin flight, again many years ago. I can't remember the exact issue, but Sir Richard phoned personally to ensure that the problem had been sorted to their satisfaction. That is customer service - maybe some TOCs could take note.

 

[Mickyb]

Have you sought costs?

Oh no, is this possible...

An excellent result. I suggest a claim for expenses should now be issued due to the vexatious litigation. I believe you can claim £19 an hour for labour with a case in the Magistrates Court plus expenses, lost income etc.

Need to look into this.

 

[Tallguy]

Oh no, is this possible...


Need to look into this.

Rob Warher at Crimebodge has extensive experience In this area. You may like to seek his advice but it is quite simple to do yourself.

 

[furlong]

Costs? Yes. If you had a solicitor, they would do this routinely in this situation.
There are different types of cost orders you can invite the court to make. A starting point if you're doing this yourself is discussed here.

There are three requirements before an order may properly be made under section 19:

The applicant must be a party to the proceedings;
There was an unnecessary or improper act or omission;
The costs have been incurred as a result of that act or omission.

It is essential to make sure the court addresses these three requirements.

The court might decide that that threshold has not been met but there are still other (more usual) mechanisms available.

 

[infobleep]

Could an FOI be submitted to XC on prosecutions or is XC classed as a private company still? I wasn't sure if the franchise changes has changed anything.

Glad it got resolved correctly.

 

[PG]

Could an FOI be submitted to XC on prosecutions or is XC classed as a private company still? I wasn't sure if the franchise changes has changed anything.

Glad it got resolved correctly.

I think the ERMA doesn't affect the status of the company so, unfortunately, I don't think a FOI request will yield anything.

 

[pitdiver]

I would like to add a couple of comments as someone who has had recent experience of Magistrate and Crown Courts. I would go along on the prescribed date to ensure the case is closed and to see if costs can be awarded.It may be that the court hasn't been advised that the case has been dropped and if the prosecutor didn't turn up they would be made to look very silly.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would like to add a couple of comments as someone who has had recent experience of Magistrate and Crown Courts. I would go along on the prescribed date to ensure the case is closed and to see if costs can be awarded.It may be that the court hasn't been advised that the case has been dropped and if the prosecutor didn't turn up they would be made to look very silly.

sounds like a v good idea! After all we have not been shown an outline of a Prosecutor who seems fully in command of the situation, or so it might appear from the outline given...

 

[Tallguy]

I would like to add a couple of comments as someone who has had recent experience of Magistrate and Crown Courts. I would go along on the prescribed date to ensure the case is closed and to see if costs can be awarded.It may be that the court hasn't been advised that the case has been dropped and if the prosecutor didn't turn up they would be made to look very silly.

I’ve re-read the comments from the OP and totally agree about turning up on the prescribed date unless some form of official notice of discontinuation has been received from the court. An e mail from the prosecutor won’t suffice in my book.

Suggest the OP takes along a schedule of loss to submit when the other side don’t turn up and requests costs.....

 

[Wolfie]

I’ve re-read the comments from the OP and totally agree about turning up on the prescribed date unless some form of official notice of discontinuation has been received from the court. An e mail from the prosecutor won’t suffice in my book.

Suggest the OP takes along a schedule of loss to submit when the other side don’t turn up and requests costs.....

Sounds eminently sensible to me. Those clowns getting a default judgment would be farcical.

 

[island]

It also won’t be happening, as there isn’t a such thing as a default judgement at Magistrates Court.

 

[Wolfie]

It also won’t be happening, as there isn’t a such thing as a default judgement at Magistrates Court.

Interesting. I must admit my court experience (as a client representative for the defendant!) was at the RCJ, Old Bailey and Supreme Court.

 

[HSP 2]

IIRC the OP could open a case for costs using the small claims court, or county court. I'm not sure witch of the courts is the best one to use if the ToC or the prosecutor doesn't want to sort it out of court. IIRC the prosecutor was talking about £195 + the cost of the fare, that should now be your starting point.

Glad that you got the proper result.