Splitting Northern

[mspljd1990]

An idea that has been discussed on here numerous times but always an interesting discussion. How would you do it, if it came to pass?

One good idea was to merge the Yorkshire and North Eastern half of Northern with LNER, and have the North Western routes under its own franchise (North Western Railway, perhaps).

In terms of routes that would go outside of their areas, the Leeds to Manchester Victoria and York to Blackpool could be LNER, as they are originally RRNE routes. Leeds to Chester and Wigan are a bit trickier, should they go to NWR? Plus, would LNER keep the Leeds to Nottingham/Lincoln services or would they be EMR? I also think it would make sense for the ATW Manchester Airport to Chester service to go to NWR.

What ideas would you have?

 

[Aictos]

What benefits would it present if you broke up Northern?

The only service I think should have been transferred away from Northern is the Blackpool to York service as that is a Trans Pennine service so sits better with TPE.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The RRNW (aligning with Merseyside and Greater Manchester PTEs) and RRNE (aligning with the Yorkshire PTEs) split actually worked fairly well, and that East-West split still very much exists inside Northern, I believe. TPE was part of RRNE, while RRNW had "North West Express", which was used to brand Manchester Airport-Blackpool semifasts, Barrow, Windermere and faster services on the North Wales Coast, with the signature green stripe Class 156 livery.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What benefits would it present if you broke up Northern?

The only service I think should have been transferred away from Northern is the Blackpool to York service as that is a Trans Pennine service so sits better with TPE.

TPE actually only run a minority of the total number of services which cross the Pennines, and only dominate one of the five or six routes that cross the hills (depending on where you draw the boundaries). Why does York to Blackpool belong with TPE but Nottingham to Liverpool doesn't?

There is some merit in the OPs suggestion, at least as a thought experiment. After all several other franchises have been merged to link local services with the intercity services they feed into (GA, GWR, EMR) which on paper should work better than the original privatisation model of separating the money-spinning long distance services from the subsidised "social railway". On that front, I do wonder what's so special about Greater Manchester that it would keep a standalone local franchise, when that's probably the part of Northern that has had the most criticism rightly or wrongly.

The issue as always is where you split the bits up and how you divvy up the various cross-Pennine routes. Under the original franchises, the only cross-Pennine services that were run by NWT/FNW were the Hope Valley stoppers (0.5tph at the time) and the Manchester to Wakefield (1tph) which also served as the Standedge route stopper west of Huddersfield. Everything else was Northern Spirit/ATN apart from the 1tph Liverpool to Norwich which is still an anomaly to this day.
Really I'd be holding off on making any changes until we know the future structure of the industry. If franchises are replaced with concessions (which arguably is what we have now unofficially with the emergency measures) then to the average punter it matters less who gets to put their logo on the side of the train.

 

[Aictos]

Nottingham to Liverpool to me doesn't cross the Pennines at all as they're too far south unlike York to Blackpool hence the name Trans Pennine Express.

Personally as much as I like to see Class 185s on the York to Blackpool services where they will come into their own with their hill climbing abilities etc, being realistic I can't see that happening so I rather Northern just stay as it is and not get broken up but rather develop the existing network more eg Northern Connect (did that actually happen?) further electrification of Northern routes (another thread would discuss this) and either extending or increasing the service level (some services to be either lengthened or increased in frequency).

That should take priority over breaking up the vast network that is Northern.

 

[YorksLad12]

If you're transferring York-Blackpool to TPE as it crosses the Pennines then you probably could/should do Leeds-Bradford-Manchester and Newcastle-Carlisle as well.

The first question for me in any Northern splitteringness should be to determine where the depots are, to reduce dead/ECS mileage, and group services that way.

The trouble with Northern Connect if it had happened was that it was using the same rolling stock as Northern Normal services instead of something with a different interior spec, for example. But the principle is sound and could be developed further if the will is there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Nottingham to Liverpool to me doesn't cross the Pennines at all as they're too far south unlike York to Blackpool hence the name Trans Pennine Express.

Personally as much as I like to see Class 185s on the York to Blackpool services where they will come into their own with their hill climbing abilities etc, being realistic I can't see that happening so I rather Northern just stay as it is and not get broken up but rather develop the existing network more eg Northern Connect (did that actually happen?) further electrification of Northern routes (another thread would discuss this) and either extending or increasing the service level (some services to be either lengthened or increased in frequency).

That should take priority over breaking up the vast network that is Northern.

The "Pennine Way" long-distance footpath starts just South of Edale station so Hope Valley services do cross the Pennines, just.
On a personal level, I'd argue that the only "true" Trans-Pennine services are the ones that were branded as such in the 1980s, i.e. long distance expresses via Huddersfield, preferably with a Peak or Duff on the front!

However if you're trying to make a case that York to Blackpool is Trans-Pennine then as stated above Calder Valley should be included too, along with Leeds to Lancaster; Settle & Carlisle and the Tyne Valley. The Todmorden curve services cross the Pennines twice between Manchester and Burnley so should they be included twice?

 

[ScottGallagher]

In 2004 the whole thing should have been one Northern franchise or leave as was, the creation of a TPE franchise was clearly political to be seen to be doing something in the north. 185's or similar could still have been procured for those longer routes within a Northern franchise if specified.
With hindsight when the franchise map was being drawn up in the 90s the east and west should have been alongside their intercity cousins like GWR, with TPE routes between the two or with cross country.

 

[DB]

It's worth noting that Northern is the only franchise which has neither London services nor the main regional services.