Spot the error competition

[VauxhallandI]

Rather than spot the ball let’s have a game of spot the error on GA’s new set of vinyl banners and posters all over my local GA station.

 

[New2rail1]

Oooo GA can fine you now.

 

[Haywain]

Cue the “only a court” comments.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

(1) Some useful weasel words in the small print: 'Intentionally' and 'can'

(2) Assuming that we accept that the railway is allowed to charge people fares and to seek to deter those who don't pay their fares, how would we word a poster so as to give that message in simple English that could be absorbed at a glance?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Get the big bad fear machine grinding....

Still, I suppose it's a simple message

 

[6Gman]

1. GA can't fine passengers.
2. There are many circumstances where it's perfectly legal to travel without a valid ticket. (Do all GA stations have ticket machines and/or permission to travel facilities?)

Have I missed any more?

(1) Some useful weasel words in the small print: 'Intentionally' and 'can'

(2) Assuming that we accept that the railway is allowed to charge people fares and to seek to deter those who don't pay their fares, how would we word a poster so as to give that message in simple English that could be absorbed at a glance?

"You must buy a valid ticket before travel if facilities are available" ?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

"You must buy a valid ticket before travel if facilities are available" ?

Doesn't give much indication of the consequences of failing to do so.

 

[ta-toget]

1. GA can't fine passengers.
2. There are many circumstances where it's perfectly legal to travel without a valid ticket. (Do all GA stations have ticket machines and/or permission to travel facilities?)

Have I missed any more?



"You must buy a valid ticket before travel if facilities are available" ?

Doesn't give much indication of the consequences of failing to do so.

"You must buy a valid ticket before travel, if facilities are available, or you may be prosecuted and fined at court."?

 

[furlong]

I did chuckle when I saw that poster last weekend. Either it's a "mistake" by some well-meaning "junior" employee that will be swiftly withdrawn once the DfT, amongst others, takes a dislike (but not before it's generated the publicity they might well be seeking) or there'll be another FOI request to the DfT to find out under exactly what circumstances they are now authorised to bypass due legal process without it amounting to contempt.

 

[vinnym70]

I'd say it's a publicity stunt. Most people who evade fares aren't reading posters - are they?
The whole thing fails any cost/benefit analysis in my opinion.

 

[TravelDream]

I'd say it's a publicity stunt. Most people who evade fares aren't reading posters - are they?

I disagree. The largest proportion of fare evaders in this country are the will pay when challenged crowd. This poster is obviously targeting this group.

One personal example I can never get over is an older family friend. She's a regular church-goer and a proper do-gooder/ holier than thou type. She commutes three days a week to Pontypridd station, but always with a single ticket. She says her ticket is almost always checked on her commute in both onboard and at the gate, but she finishes work after the evening rush and says the platform gates are always open and the guard never checks at that hour (and this was pre-Covid). I think she saves quite literally 50p each time.

 

[Titfield]

It does beg the question how do you get "the message" across given all the caveats about (a) the circumstances when not being in possession of a ticket is permissible (b) the range of actions the TOC or the Courts may take.

 

[Nova1]

So how do I go about accidentally boarding a train...

 

[swt_passenger]

Cue the “only a court” comments.

I do believe we’ve had this sort of thread a couple of times before about different TOC‘s similar posters.

 

[Deafdoggie]

So how do I go about accidentally boarding a train...

We've all done it, quietly walking along minding our own business and take a short cut along a platform and step to one side and accidentally you're on a train

 

[VauxhallandI]

How about just cutting the lie off the end.

“We will prosecute you”

Is that not simple or hard enough? It implies you will be taken to Court, what more is needed?

It’s unprofessional or it’s deliberately lying, both are possible outcomes from the railway sadly.

 

[py_megapixel]

The thing is, if it said "issue youu a penalty fare notice" rather than "fine you", people would be whinging about how that wording is too technical and not suitable for passengers unacquainted with the system.

 

[swt_passenger]

We've all done it, quietly walking along minding our own business and take a short cut along a platform and step to one side and accidentally you're on a train

Then there was that concrete mixer driver a few years back…

 

[VauxhallandI]

The thing is, if it said "issue youu a penalty fare notice" rather than "fine you", people would be whinging about how that wording is too technical and not suitable for passengers unacquainted with the system.

Is prosecute you, not enough?

 

[py_megapixel]

Is prosecute you, not enough?

No, because penalty fares are not prosecution.

 

[furlong]

Well the irony wasn't lost on me that the poster I saw was at an entrance to a platform where there should have been a standard Penalty Fares poster but wasn't. By displaying that non-standard poster instead, they had taken away the option of lawfully charging a Penalty Fare to any passenger who began their journey at that station. A poster that creates a loophole that helps to undermine its message.

 

[VauxhallandI]

No, because penalty fares are not prosecution.

I'm lost now

 

[adc82140]

I would change the last paragraph from "we will prosecute or fine you" to "you could end up in court". Equal deterrent value, and factually correct.

NSE had some good ones back in the day "get a ticket, not a criminal record"

 

[VauxhallandI]

I would change the last paragraph from "we will prosecute or fine you" to "you could end up in court". Equal deterrent value, and factually correct.

NSE had some good ones back in the day "get a ticket, not a criminal record"

Yep

"we will prosecute you and you could end up in Court" would work for those who don't appreciate the word prosecute

 

[scrapy]

By the legal definition of 'fine', this is something only a court can issue. However several dictionaries define 'fine' as a payment for doing something wrong, or similar, in which case the poster is correct as they have not stated they are using the legal definition and any out of court settlement or penalty fare is just that.

 

[nw1]

1. GA can't fine passengers.
2. There are many circumstances where it's perfectly legal to travel without a valid ticket. (Do all GA stations have ticket machines and/or permission to travel facilities?)

Also I note that the permit to travel machines on some stations (Beaulieu Road) only accept cash.

Given that maybe not everyone always carries cash these days, could you be PFed (I presume prosecution would never happen as that would be too silly) for not buying a permit to travel due to having no cash?

(Beaulieu Road permit machine was broken when I last used the station as an origin point as it happened, but it's an interesting question)

 

[Haywain]

Also I note that the permit to travel machines on some stations (Beaulieu Road) only accept cash.

Given that maybe not everyone always carries cash these days, could you be PFed (I presume prosecution would never happen as that would be too silly) for not buying a permit to travel due to having no cash?

(Beaulieu Road permit machine was broken when I last used the station as an origin point as it happened, but it's an interesting question)

As South Western Railway don't operate a penalty fare scheme, you could not be penalty fared. Wrong, they do!

 

[Watershed]

As South Western Railway don't operate a penalty fare scheme, you could not be penalty fared.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Haywain]

Are you sure about that?

Well, I was.