St Pancras safety concerns at top of EMR P1-4 escalator (11/02)

[yorkie]

At St Pancras today, at the top of the escalator, I found a large group of people.

A constant stream of people were arriving at the top of the escalator and being deposited at what appeared to be the back of a queue. It wasn't immediately clear to me what was going on; there was no advance warning or hint of this.

Fortunately, just before the situation became dangerous, they shouted 'customers for Corby' and the crowd started to clear, and three lanes formed for three trains, and there was no issue after that (other than the train being full, but that's another story)

It turns out the crowd at the top of the escalator was formed of people either to join the Corby queue, or people just caught up in the confusion.

I got into the lane for Sheffield and found this to be pretty clear, as the train for Sheffield had already started boarding. I don't think people for my train were being held back, however it really wasn't clear what was going on and who was meant to be queuing where.

Incidentally seat reservations are suspended "due to the queue" (the only viable option in the circumstances) and many passengers are unable to board their intended trains. I could have physically boarded but chose not to, as I didn't want to stand on such a long journey.

I mentioned this to someone who was stated as being in charge of safety , who appeared to be a contractor who said "people don't use their faculties; thank you for your observation". I reported it to a member of EMR staff who did take it seriously, so I won't be writing in or anything like that, as I trust they will look into it.

 

[Ken X]

This is a known phenomenon and the British Standards cover physical obstructions such a doors at the exit of machines. The solution is to interlock the doors to the machine so it cannot be run with the doors closed. Similarly if two machines are situated end to end and the centre landing has no exit, both machines must run or stop together.

In your situation it was a non - physical blockage caused by people flow (or not) and should be managed by the staff. In my experience (Airports) the Engineering Duty Manager (EDM) should be informed. They would investigate and, if a reoccurrence could be forseen, ensure measures were put in place to prevent the blockage reoccurring. Do railway stations have a similar hierarchy of engineering staff?

If the problem develops quickly and people are at immediate risk of injury, hit the machine stop button. I have seen a door suddenly close on a busy travellator exit We bashed the stops and photographed the scene as evidence for our actions. An investigation was held by the EDM and whilst the interlock did operate, it is better safe than sorry.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I find the East Midlands concourse at STP to often be extremely busy on Sundays between around 1400 and 1730 as people use faster services to Luton airport for return home flights after weekend away or heading back to work or study but also for people wishing to return home to various destinations on the route at a reasonable time. I can't help wonder if in future the East Midlands concourse will need to be extended or some of the additional bits like retail units knocked out to create more circulation space and possibly another escalator

 

[87electric]

Here’s a novel idea. Let people wait on platforms.

 

[GardenRail]

Here’s a novel idea. Let people wait on platforms.

^this^
St Pancras EMR is not fit for purpose.

 

[DaveN]

Imagine if they tried to have separate queues for different destinations for the Thameslink platforms!

 

[43066]

At St Pancras today, at the top of the escalator, I found a large group of people.

A constant stream of people were arriving at the top of the escalator and being deposited at what appeared to be the back of a queue. It wasn't immediately clear to me what was going on; there was no advance warning or hint of this.

Fortunately, just before the situation became dangerous, they shouted 'customers for Corby' and the crowd started to clear, and three lanes formed for three trains, and there was no issue after that (other than the train being full, but that's another story)

It turns out the crowd at the top of the escalator was formed of people either to join the Corby queue, or people just caught up in the confusion.

I got into the lane for Sheffield and found this to be pretty clear, as the train for Sheffield had already started boarding. I don't think people for my train were being held back, however it really wasn't clear what was going on and who was meant to be queuing where.

Incidentally seat reservations are suspended "due to the queue" (the only viable option in the circumstances) and many passengers are unable to board their intended trains. I could have physically boarded but chose not to, as I didn't want to stand on such a long journey.

I mentioned this to someone who was stated as being in charge of safety , who appeared to be a contractor who said "people don't use their faculties; thank you for your observation". I reported it to a member of EMR staff who did take it seriously, so I won't be writing in or anything like that, as I trust they will look into it.

*Big* numbers travelling on the MML today, probably the busiest I’ve seen it since pre Covid (and I’ve definitely driven my busiest train since pre Covid, which unfortunately was only a 5 car, luckily we didn’t stop much).

It seems to be pretty well organised at St P, and bearing up under the strain, but definitely maxed out. The gateline is also short staffed.

 

[renegademaster]

ECML is shut Huntingdon to Peterborough too that couldnt had helped. I took EMR connect from Corby today and it was pleasantly quiet. Did see the quite large queue at St Pancreas though. 6 Eurostars where stabled at the platforms, surely theirs somewhere better to put them , and allow a few of the platforms to be handed back to National Rail

 

[43066]

Here’s a novel idea. Let people wait on platforms.

The platforms would then become dangerously overcrowded, so that inbound passengers couldn’t disembark, trains would be unable to safely arrive and be dispatched, and the station would grind to a complete halt.

Bad idea.

^this^
St Pancras EMR is not fit for purpose.

It’s too small, for sure. It has to be managed in the best way it can be as a result. They’re going a decent enough job based on what I’ve seen today.

Albeit getting uncomfortably busy and approaching max capacity.

 

[yorkie]

It seems to be pretty well organised at St P...

The only part that seemed problematic was at the top of the escalator, and that eased as soon as they allowed people for Corby to go through.

and bearing up under the strain, but definitely maxed out. The gateline is also short staffed.

There did seem to be a lot of staff milling around, although a lot of them seemed to be Network Rail and contract staff, not a lot of EMR staff. The issue wasn't lack of staff when I was there (but I certainly will take what you say as true for causing problems at other times) but more the behaviour of the contract staff near the escalators.

I was also given poor advice by a member of EMR staff, I am not sure what his role was, but the quality of staff there seems to be extremely variable!

...I can't help wonder if in future the East Midlands concourse will need to be extended ....

.... surely theirs somewhere better to put them , and allow a few of the platforms to be handed back to National Rail

Feel free to post these, and any other suggestions, in the Speculative Discussion section If the suggestion is not covered by an existing thread, you can create one:

St Pancras International Departure Hall - One potential solution for overcrowding

Hi. A few posters on the International board have talked about the lack of space in the existing international departure hall at St Pancras. I know I've seen it busy myself. Some people mentioned using the arrivals hall to somehow deal with departures aswell. Below is my suggestion of one way...

www.railforums.co.uk

St Pancras platform 5: from Eurostar to EMR?

St Pancras Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 are a significant constraint on East Midlands services. So how feasible is adding platform 5 to the service? Eurostar trains could be held in the unused international platforms at Stratford. Would this allow the platform to be freeded up? There would...

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St Pancras Platform 0

St Pancras is frequently criticised for it's track layout whereby different operators are forced to use only their own limited range of platforms. Although MML is a relatively modest 'intercity' operation, to restrict it to just 4 platforms necessitates doubling up frequently, with the...

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St Pancras - could the layout be improved for Eurostar?

I am disappointed that Eurostar, very gradually, just seems to be losing interest in being a key international travel medium. Happening slowly over time, but in particular the recent merger with Thalys seems to have just left it as an outlying branch from an operation mainly focused on the Paris...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43066]

At St Pancras today, at the top of the escalator, I found a large group of people.

I’m not sure what time you were there, but at least one of the escalators is also down for maintenance, and another seemed to have been cordoned off and was being watched by a security guard, as of around half an hour ago. That won’t help matters.

 

[LowLevel]

As has been well documented on here kettling the ECML passengers on to the under resourced MML on these seemingly regular weekends is an absolute recipe for disaster, neither stations nor trains can cope.

 

[dosxuk]

On other busy weekends they have closed the up escalators off completely, and made people use the stairs / lift at the far end of the concourse. Things are definitely better than they have been - "free for all" would have been a polite description of the chaos I've experienced in the past.

 

[43066]

I was also given poor advice by a member of EMR staff, I am not sure what his role was, but the quality of staff there seems to be extremely variable!

I can’t comment on that of course but, if I had any criticism based on my observations this PM, it would be that perhaps they shouldn’t bother checking inbound tickets quite so rigorously, as it slows down platform clearance.

I was also surprised first class wasn’t declassified on my service (I had time to pop back for a biscuit at Derby , and noticed how crush loaded the train was, as I walked alongside it). There were about five people standing in the bike area behind my cab (who shouldn’t technically have been in there at all, but needs must!), and I think we left at least one cyclist behind at Leicester.

The pathing was all over the place, too, as many EMR services were booked for the slows, but ran on the fasts, leading to some long standing times.

As has been well documented on here kettling the ECML passengers on to the under resourced MML on these seemingly regular weekends is an absolute recipe for disaster, neither stations nor trains can cope.

Today really highlights how badly we need the new fleet.

 

[PupCuff]

I've seen similar towards the end of last year at St Pancras, it was actively dangerous. The concerns get raised to EMR and they just don't take them seriously; it feels as though whoever is responsible for that bit of safety management doesn't appreciate how bad the situation actually is and how significant a risk there is of injury through crowd surging causing falls/crush injuries etc, and it just seems to get dumped onto the staff there on the day to try and cope with, which isn't fair.

People go on about the Euston rush but St P due to the limited space and design is much worse.

 

[John Webb]

The problems at St Pancras were not helped, I suspect, by a Corby train (1Y27) apparently dying at St Albans this afternoon, resulting in all down trains having to use the down slow only from Radlett to Harpenden. (I've set up another thread to ask for details of that problem.)

EDIT: 1Y27 was stopped due to a transformer fault, I've been told.

 

[ModernRailways]

Today really highlights how badly we need the new fleet.

Would the new fleet actually help matters like this though?

The MML is already overstretched, but the bigger problem this weekend is that the ECML is down for engineering works and instead of a bus from Huntingdon to Grantham people chose to take the MML up towards Derby/Sheffield and then onwards back to the ECML via XC/Northern. Neither the MML, nor the WCML have the capacity to handle the extra ECML traffic, especially on a weekend. It's not uncommon to see LNER services fully booked on a weekend, EMR is the same with trains often being very well loaded, there's just very little to no spare capacity in the network, something which HS2 would've helped alleviate (similar in essence to Crossrail) to an extent but now won't.

 

[renegademaster]

MML capacity is a problem but EMR run 5 car trains on busy routes. Youd still need the queues but if they got some new trains(or resurrect the HSTs) and could run the meridians doubled it would make life a lot easier

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Would the new fleet actually help matters like this though?

Yes, because a 5 car 80x has more seats than a 7 car 222 for example.

 

[QSK19]

MML capacity is a problem but EMR run 5 car trains on busy routes. Youd still need the queues but if they got some new trains(or resurrect the HSTs) and could run the meridians doubled it would make life a lot easier

They are indeed getting some - the 810s. 33 of them to enter service next year. There is only so much EMR can do with a fleet of 27 Meridians; so I’m afraid it’s a case of having to bear with it.

The whole pre-boarding situation at the EMR platforms isn’t ideal at all - exacerbated by the fact that EMR has been shoved into a tiny, unloved corner of the station which, as things stand, simply isn’t large enough for EMR’s service requirements. Typical that EMR is an afterthought - the needs of Eurostar, SE and TL have been fully considered; but just give EMR the leftover scraps.

Hopefully, fleet size standardisation and capacity increase (versus the 222s) that the 810s will bring will help in the long run.

 

[ExRes]

^this^
St Pancras EMR is not fit for purpose.

St Pancras wasn't fit for purpose from the day it opened, problem was and is that nobody gives a damn, the station was rebuilt for Eurostar and for retail services while MML/EMR/EMT were nothing but a thorn in the side, platforms 1 & 2 were a prime example, the architects cocked up so badly that every time the rain blew in from the west the brilliantly thought out platform flooring turned into an ice rink, did they care? of course not

 

[Mikw]

Perhaps we'd better keep quiet about it, otherwise a "solution" will be imposes - scrapping of the cheaper off peak tickets.

 

[Failed Unit]

They are indeed getting some - the 810s. 33 of them to enter service next year. There is only so much EMR can do with a fleet of 27 Meridians; so I’m afraid it’s a case of having to bear with it.

The whole pre-boarding situation at the EMR platforms isn’t ideal at all - exacerbated by the fact that EMR has been shoved into a tiny, unloved corner of the station which, as things stand, simply isn’t large enough for EMR’s service requirements. Typical that EMR is an afterthought - the needs of Eurostar, SE and TL have been fully considered; but just give EMR the leftover scraps.

Hopefully, fleet size standardisation and capacity increase (versus the 222s) that the 810s will bring will help in the long run.

Actually I don’t think the station works for anyone - SE is very high frequency and the platforms are no occupied for long but think that area of the station is worse. It isn’t link EMR where Advarced tickets rule so if you are going to Leicester and arrive early you just have to wait, where if you arrive early and are going to Ashford you board the next train that is heading that way (I know SE do sell advances now - but I understand the majority are walk on)

TL is fairly awful, but is fine if the service is running OK. But again it is a high frequency service so people tend to get on the first train that goes to there destination.

Eurostar has numerous posts that the station can’t cope. A broken escalator really bungs up the job

The ticket restrictions and people arriving early for trains isnt helping.I haven’t experienced the issue first hand but if they have every train ready for boarding 20 minutes before departure would that help? (Or even be possible).

 

[Kite159]

The MML is already overstretched, but the bigger problem this weekend is that the ECML is down for engineering works and instead of a bus from Huntingdon to Grantham people chose to take the MML up towards Derby/Sheffield and then onwards back to the ECML via XC/Northern

Passengers prefer to use trains rather than taking the replacement bus lottery. (Of will the bus connect with the trains, will it be suitable for the service, will they be able to get on & will it actually run?)

Happens across the country, where a rail alternative when replacement buses are operating. Ie Basingstoke to London via Reading rather than the bus to Guildford/Woking.

 

[duffield]

Would the new fleet actually help matters like this though?

The MML is already overstretched, but the bigger problem this weekend is that the ECML is down for engineering works and instead of a bus from Huntingdon to Grantham people chose to take the MML up towards Derby/Sheffield and then onwards back to the ECML via XC/Northern. Neither the MML, nor the WCML have the capacity to handle the extra ECML traffic, especially on a weekend. It's not uncommon to see LNER services fully booked on a weekend, EMR is the same with trains often being very well loaded, there's just very little to no spare capacity in the network, something which HS2 would've helped alleviate (similar in essence to Crossrail) to an extent but now won't.

Yes, I actually travelled from Grantham to Leeds on Saturday and the LNER service seemed to have almost no-one on it. I was the only person in my carriage (1st, but even so). Knowing how EMR is on these occasions I think I'd have chanced the bus connection rather than the MML if I'd been travelling from London.

 

[sheff1]

St Pancras wasn't fit for purpose from the day it opened,

Even I am not old enough to know what St Pancras was like when it opened but I found it eminently fit for purpose in the 1970s/80s.

 

[43066]

Would the new fleet actually help matters like this though?

The MML is already overstretched, but the bigger problem this weekend is that the ECML is down for engineering works and instead of a bus from Huntingdon to Grantham people chose to take the MML up towards Derby/Sheffield and then onwards back to the ECML via XC/Northern. Neither the MML, nor the WCML have the capacity to handle the extra ECML traffic, especially on a weekend. It's not uncommon to see LNER services fully booked on a weekend, EMR is the same with trains often being very well loaded, there's just very little to no spare capacity in the network, something which HS2 would've helped alleviate (similar in essence to Crossrail) to an extent but now won't.

There wasn’t actually full ECML ticket acceptance in place this weekend just gone, for the reasons you indicate, but a lot of people with LNER tickets showed up for EMR services anyway!

 

[ExRes]

Even I am not old enough to know what St Pancras was like when it opened

Nor me thankfully, perhaps I should have said the 'Eurostar' version of St Pancras

 

[CapabilityB]

I always wondered how a business case existed for spending millions tweaking the points south of Leicester, and straightening the tracks at Market Harborough, to save a cumulative minute in journey time on the train. Meanwhile no-one seems willing to spend any money to make changes to the EMR platforms / gatelines / concourse / onwards connections at ST Pancras which could surely offer greater benefits for customers.

(Noting that the MH scheme did also have many important benefits in terms of platform lengths and stepping distances)

 

[Dr Hoo]

I always wondered how a business case existed for spending millions tweaking the points south of Leicester, and straightening the tracks at Market Harborough, to save a cumulative minute in journey time on the train. Meanwhile no-one seems willing to spend any money to make changes to the EMR platforms / gatelines / concourse / onwards connections at ST Pancras which could surely offer greater benefits for customers.

(Noting that the MH scheme did also have many important benefits in terms of platform lengths and stepping distances)

Possibly because of the billions (really) already spent on HS1, Thameslink, Southeastern Javelin and LUL Northern Ticket Hall all with full lift access that cut out previous schleps to Victoria, Waterloo and Pentonville Road, etc.?