St Pancras Undercroft

[O L Leigh]

I wonder if any of you learned folk might be able to point me in the direction of a good source of information and images of the undercroft in it's heyday prior to rebuilding. Various permutations of search terms are not really yielding what I'm hoping to find. The best I've found so far is this, but it's quite brief.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I believe part of the undercroft was used to store the silverware owned by BR. As you say Google etc is quite lazy when searching such things.

 

[Ken H]

I wonder if any of you learned folk might be able to point me in the direction of a good source of information and images of the undercroft in it's heyday prior to rebuilding. Various permutations of search terms are not really yielding what I'm hoping to find. The best I've found so far is this, but it's quite brief.

Thanks in advance.

bit of a discussion in this book. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Londons-Termini-David-Charles-Jackson/dp/0330027476/

 

[Big Jumby 74]

You may wish to try the 'Londonrailwayrecord.co.uk' . A long running series of A5 booklets that often cover the more quirkier side of railways in and around London. There's a down-loadable index of issues 1-105 on the internet. I can't direct you to any particular issue, St. Pancras not being within my interests as such, but issues 4, 29, 39, 40, 47,49, 54, 59 & 87 are all listed in the index as having something St. Pancras (Terminus) related included.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I wonder if any of you learned folk might be able to point me in the direction of a good source of information and images of the undercroft in it's heyday prior to rebuilding. Various permutations of search terms are not really yielding what I'm hoping to find. The best I've found so far is this, but it's quite brief.

Thanks in advance.

It has always seemed to be a poorly documented aspect of St P. Simon Bradley's recent book (2007) has about a page on it, together with a previously published plan of the column layout and tracks (just a pair, with turn plates). Alan A Jackson's book on Londen's Termini doesn't say much more.

Classic railway textbooks, such as Modern Railway Working and Modern Railway Operation seem to focus on other depots, such as Somers Town, Camden, Haydon Square, Broad Street and so on. I suppose that with St P being unique it wasn't really relevant for learning lessons.

The classic 'beer barrel' picture that you have linked to is by far the best illustration that I have seen. The columns were about 14 feet apart - a multiple of barrel length.

I did have a wander round when I was a fresh new railwayman in the mid-1970s, when it was largely derelict.

Best wishes for your search.

 

[O L Leigh]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

 

[greyman42]

Am i right in thinking that there used to be a garage there for the servicing and repairs to black cabs?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Am i right in thinking that there used to be a garage there for the servicing and repairs to black cabs?

Yes. It was there when I made my visit. (Obviously, after the original goods facilities had gone.)

 

[AndrewP]

Doug Sherry's Taxi Wash rings a bell from the 90s - why I remember that I don't know

 

[32475]

I have a copy of ‘The transformation of St Pancras station’ published in 2008. It’s a beautiful book but it has frustratingly few images of the undercroft and probably won’t reveal anything you haven’t found already.
Having said that it does have a wonderful series of photos of the station, the hotel and surrounding buildings prior to the rebuild and restoration which portray the decay and down at heal state the area was in back then.

 

[Ken H]

I have a copy of ‘The transformation of St Pancras station’ published in 2008. It’s a beautiful book but it has frustratingly few images of the undercroft and probably won’t reveal anything you haven’t found already.
Having said that it does have a wonderful series of photos of the station, the hotel and surrounding buildings prior to the rebuild and restoration which portray the decay and down at heal state the area was in back then.

And to think BR wanted to demolish it and flog off the site.

 

[Snow1964]

Plan of undercroft in 1958

The foundations of the colums are different where the widened lines (now Thameslink) curve under the building

 

[JBuchananGB]

I heard once when on a guided tour that the spacing of the columns was determined by the size of beer barrels, because a sizeable amount of the freight business of Midland Railway was bringing beer from Burton-on-Trent to London. Urban legend I suppose.

 

[John Webb]

I heard once when on a guided tour that the spacing of the columns was determined by the size of beer barrels, because a sizeable amount of the freight business of Midland Railway was bringing beer from Burton-on-Trent to London. Urban legend I suppose.

Not at all an urban legend! The Midland Railway was faced with either importing many tons of soil on which to build St Pancras or find a way of using the space under the station for profitable traffic. The link provided in post #1 (https://stpancras.com/history/built-on-beer) by the OP makes what they did quite clear.

 

[Ken H]

I heard once when on a guided tour that the spacing of the columns was determined by the size of beer barrels, because a sizeable amount of the freight business of Midland Railway was bringing beer from Burton-on-Trent to London. Urban legend I suppose.

Not just the spacing of the columns. The size of beer barrels determined the size of the trainshed. The floor between the beer cellar and the tracks also is a tie reducing the thrust of the trainshed arch outwards meaning less butressing. How the have managed to make big holes in it I dont know. Hope they did their sums right.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not just the spacing of the columns. The size of beer barrels determined the size of the trainshed. The floor between the beer cellar and the tracks also is a tie reducing the thrust of the trainshed arch outwards meaning less butressing. How the have managed to make big holes in it I dont know. Hope they did their sums right.

Ah, that’s mentioned in an Arup pdf I attached in a thread a few years ago. I’ll try and find it…

The original intention at the lower level was to retain the Barlow column/girder/plate structure almost in its entirety. As is well known, the ceiling level of this undercroft provides the tie for the roof-arch, and so its integrity has to be preserved. Barlow was far-sighted enough to realize that platform layouts would change over the lifetime of his station, and so he designed the ceiling level of the undercroft as a horizontal deck structure to carry the track beds, with platforms built up off it. The platforms, originally in timber (Fig 10), are therefore not part of the primary structure.

Investigations showed that although the cast-iron columns and their foundations are in excellent shape and perfectly fit to be reused, the strength of the horizontal beams was questionable, in terms of maximum load-bearing capacity and expected lifespan. Additionally, improved vibration isolation was necessary between the platforms and the undercroft space below.

The chosen solution was to cast a new concrete deck across the full width of the station on top of the existing deck, so that its load is transmitted directly onto the columns (Figs 12 & 13). Such a concrete structure has large in-plane stiffness, unlike the existing beam grillage. This allows large holes to be designed into it, allowing the levels to be opened up.

The above is an extract from an Arup staff magazine from 2004, originally attached to post #73 in this thread:

St Pancras High Level Concourse - How Did it Ever Get Past Planning?

My only real complaint is that the listed status on the main trainshed meant the new portion had to look totally different, in other words, ugly. Pity we couldn't have an arched train shed in the traditional style, maybe painted a different colour or whatnot to differentiate it.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Class45]

In the 1950s my mother used to work there as a stock controller for the Ind Coope brewery.

 

[Mikey C]

In the 80s, raves were held in the undercroft. I remember seeing a documentary about Jazzie B (Soul 11 Soul) talking about such events.

Jazzie B: Soul II Soul Club Classics Vol 1

The man himself on an era-defining album

www.musicradar.com

"It's a message. I've always been a big fan of [Funky poet] Gil Scott- Heron, and the message has always been in the music. That's what that is all about. One time I remember doing a gig in King's Cross, in the arches, which is now the famous St. Pancras Station. We must have had 5,000 people turn up to this hand-built rave, as it were. A couple of these militant black guys stepped up to me as I was working the crowd outside. Believe me it was orderly.

"Every time I said something the crowd would just adhere to it. And these guys came up behind me and pulled me to one side and started saying how I had all this respect and a position of power, and how I should use it to do this, that and the other.

 

[billio]

Am i right in thinking that there used to be a garage there for the servicing and repairs to black cabs?

The route to/from the taxi servicing area formed a useful short-cut between the the staff entrance of the British Library and Kings Cross. I used it frequently to save a few minutes when traveling back home to Yorkshire. However, it was quite scary being pitch black in places.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Is the undercroft on the same level as the surrounding roads, or is beneath the local ground level?

Who remembers the stuffed cow in one of the arches along Pancras Road under the station? This would have been in the late 1970s or early 1980s. My dad didn't believe me when I told him about it, and he only accepted it when we happened to to be in the area and I showed him it.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Is the undercroft on the same level as the surrounding roads, or is beneath the local ground level?

Who remembers the stuffed cow in one of the arches along Pancras Road under the station? This would have been in the late 1970s or early 1980s. My dad didn't believe me when I told him about it, and he only accepted it when we happened to to be in the area and I showed him it.

The undercroft was and is at 'ground level' (above the culverted Fleet River). The station itself had to be elevated in order to get the tracks over the Regents Canal.

One can walk into the former undercroft area from various street entrances in all directions, essentially on the flat.

 

[martin2345uk]

What was it like before the refurbishment? Did you just have steps leading straight up to the raised platform level with the undercroft being out of bounds?

 

[Dr Hoo]

What was it like before the refurbishment? Did you just have steps leading straight up to the raised platform level with the undercroft being out of bounds?

The undercroft was never relevant to passenger/pedestrian access prior to refurbishment in the 'noughties'.

St Pancras was very 'impermeable' in spacial planning terms with access really only up steps or ramp at the Euston Road end.

The whole area has been transformed in my lifetime.

 

[swt_passenger]

The undercroft was never relevant to passenger/pedestrian access prior to refurbishment in the 'noughties'.

St Pancras was very 'impermeable' in spacial planning terms with access really only up steps or ramp at the Euston Road end.

The whole area has been transformed in my lifetime.

I can’t even remember how the route to the underground was signed if you arrived at the old St Pancras platforms. Did they just send you out through the front arch and turn left then down the same steps as currently head towards Kings Cross forecourt? Or was there an indoor route? I probably only used old St Pancras a handful of times in the 70s, so my recollections are hazy at best…

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can’t even remember how the route to the underground was signed if you arrived at the old St Pancras platforms. Did they just send you out through the front arch and turn left then down the same steps as currently head towards Kings Cross forecourt? Or was there an indoor route? I probably only used old St Pancras a handful of times in the 70s, so my recollections are hazy at best…

There were a couple of relatively inconspicuous cranked staircases down, hard up against the back wall of the hotel. No lift or escalators.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

There were a couple of relatively inconspicuous cranked staircases down, hard up against the back wall of the hotel.

The stairwell I and my mates would use after a day up North was the one in the far left corner (as one arrived on the train). Our 'Peaks' usually brought us in to the left hand side of the station (in direction of travel), and that staircase, if one was quick to avoid a crush, was an easy way to the tube, but it was VERY narrow. On the way to St. Pancras though I recall we always exited the tube on the KX side of the road and climbed those stairs outside SP. Just seemed easier! On odd occasions arrived by taxi, which took us either round by the booking hall in the SW corner or dropped us by main cab road entrance when a quick dash for the train was needed

 

[Snow1964]

I can’t even remember how the route to the underground was signed if you arrived at the old St Pancras platforms. Did they just send you out through the front arch and turn left then down the same steps as currently head towards Kings Cross forecourt? Or was there an indoor route? I probably only used old St Pancras a handful of times in the 70s, so my recollections are hazy at best…

There were two main routes, an outdoor one through the vehicle arch arch, turn left and down a wide staircase, then crossing road to Kings Cross forecourt. There was also a relatively narrow walkway under the road which was reached by staircases against the wall by the hotel.

From memory could also go out the front and there were narrow stairway entrances to the Metropolitan & circle lines either side of the Euston Road (now removed)

 

[edwin_m]

Certainly recall two narrow and cramped staircases, one down to the Tube and one down to Euston Road under the forecourt. Most people probably left by the big arch and turned either left down the steps or right down the ramp. I think you could also find your way out to Midland Road through the cab rank.

 

[Mikey C]

The undercroft was never relevant to passenger/pedestrian access prior to refurbishment in the 'noughties'.

St Pancras was very 'impermeable' in spacial planning terms with access really only up steps or ramp at the Euston Road end.

The whole area has been transformed in my lifetime.

I remember it well, walking up the taxi ramp from the Euston Road into this dingy, smoky, fairly empty but really atmospheric station

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking for interior photos I came across this Flickr group, it didn’t really answer my earlier question but others may find it interesting - many photos show how poor the ambience was before the international conversion:

Old St Pancras

Pictures of St Pancras Station before rebuilding as the High Speed 1 terminus

www.flickr.com