Stadler Flirt 'IC'

[RichW1]

Does anyone here seriously think the Stadler Flirt Greater Anglia 'Intercity's' are actually Intercity's at all? To me they are just regional trains with centrally located double commuter doors, with people pouring on in the middle of carriages, and a general lack of ambience for an Intercity. Then there's that 'power car' - what on Earth is that and why does no other train need one?

A regional express train at best, this certainly seal's the downgrade of London-Norwich as a regional route akin to Southwest Trains. Maybe this is the correct thing to do. Norwich is more of a large town than a true city, and is not many miles away from being part of London's city region, so may be it's the correct choice. After all, it's the only Intercity service that does not link two cities of 1million or more together outside the Great Western's poor southwest Britain Intercity's.

Ironically, King's Lynn will become an Intercity destination with the IEP's as I understand it, albeit a semi-fast service like Norwich is currently. How times change.

 

[47802]

Does anyone here seriously think the Stadler Flirt Greater Anglia 'Intercity's' are actually Intercity's at all? To me they are just regional trains with centrally located double commuter doors, with people pouring on in the middle of carriages, and a general lack of ambience for an Intercity. Then there's that 'power car' - what on Earth is that and why does no other train need one?

A regional express train at best, this certainly seal's the downgrade of London-Norwich as a regional route akin to Southwest Trains. Maybe this is the correct thing to do. Norwich is more of a large town than a true city, and is not many miles away from being part of London's city region, so may be it's the correct choice. After all, it's the only Intercity service that does not link two cities of 1million or more together outside the Great Western's poor southwest Britain Intercity's.

Ironically, King's Lynn will become an Intercity destination with the IEP's as I understand it, albeit a semi-fast service like Norwich is currently. How times change.

What are you on about the interior looks reasonably Inter City to me and certainly good enough for a route with around a 2 hour Journey time. The door layout opts for different thinking to what we normally get in the UK so what? There is lot of nonsense on here in my view with regard to door layout and what is required for Inter City trains.

As far as I am aware the Power Car is only needed for the Bi-mode regional trains not the Intercity Trains and is an alternative location for the Diesel engines rather than under the floor bearing in mind the Flirt Units will have lower floors than conventional UK trains which will have the benefit of no step onto the trains for people with a disability although it does mean there may be steps or ramps inside some parts of the train

 

[Firesprite]

Ironically, King's Lynn will become an Intercity destination with the IEP's as I understand it, albeit a semi-fast service like Norwich is currently. How times change.

That plan was dropped more than five years ago.

 

[chubs]

Well we haven't seen a final design yet so I will reserve judgement until then. There's a few others in the main thread you can join in with if you want to say it is all doom and gloom and absolutely 100% will fail.

Personally I'll be glad to see the back of the draughty mk3's with their jammed open vestibule doors.

 

[Roast Veg]

I think the design of these (from what I have seen) checks out pretty well so far. There's seat space to be gained from moving the doors to the middle and having a smaller single vestibule, which means having shorter carriages to keep the doors close enough to the platform. Shorter carriages means lighter carriages, which means a non-prohibitive axle load on shared bogies between carriages, which adds stability and reduces overall weight.

All in all, I'm particularly excited for these units given how many unique features they'll bring. Other than the 373s, the only stock even proposed with shared bogies in recent times was the Alstom Xtrapolis metro unit as far as I know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone here seriously think the Stadler Flirt Greater Anglia 'Intercity's' are actually Intercity's at all?

Yes, I've done a very long journey (about 6 hours) on a Polish IC FLIRT (interior is to be broadly similar) and I found it to be very comfortable with an excellent window view and a good ride. Very much approved.

To me they are just regional trains with centrally located double commuter doors, with people pouring on in the middle of carriages, and a general lack of ambience for an Intercity.

Do you recall that Mk1 and Mk2 stock (pre-aircon) had central doors? But there's no more doors than an end doored coach - two leaves in the middle instead of one leaf at each end. OK, they are slightly short (18m I think as all have one bogie and one half bogie) vehicles but it barely makes any difference.

Then there's that 'power car' - what on Earth is that and why does no other train need one?

Lots of trains have a "power car". It sits at the front (or back, with a DVT at the other end). Can you think what it's called?

The "power car" is just for the diesel version, in any case, not the IC one. It's provided for two reasons - passenger comfort (no rattling diesel engine underneath) and because the design is low-floor, meaning there will be almost no step up from the platform - a real bonus there.

A regional express train at best

It's regional express technology, but that's because that technology has advanced over time so it can produce perfectly good 110-125mph trains. InterCity designs are now the really fast stuff.

But what it's like to the passenger just depends on what seats you put in and how you arrange them.

this certainly seal's the downgrade of London-Norwich as a regional route akin to Southwest Trains

Class 444s aren't really regional trains, they have a high standard of InterCity interior easily as good as the Mk3. And the Wessie, which is to return to "SWT", *is* a Mk3, just like the Anglian ones.

Maybe this is the correct thing to do. Norwich is more of a large town than a true city, and is not many miles away from being part of London's city region, so may be it's the correct choice. After all, it's the only Intercity service that does not link two cities of 1million or more together outside the Great Western's poor southwest Britain Intercity's.

There is that too - but I genuinely believe these will be excellent InterCity standard units.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They're not regional trains, but the seats are designed for ultra high density use and are regional seats, very thin and light and not well padded.

The PKP ones really are great though, with good seats, decent leg-room and a good atmosphere.

You might like to join the main thread here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143516

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're not regional trains, but the seats are designed for ultra high density use and are regional seats, very thin and light and not well padded.

The PKP ones really are great though, with good seats, decent leg-room and a good atmosphere.

You might like to join the main thread here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143516

I do share your concern about the seats though I'll judge when I've sat in one - the original concepts showed the same seats as the Polish ones, which in turn are the same as the GWR HSTs, Austrian RailJet (Standard class) and various others, a seat I find very comfortable indeed.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I do share your concern about the seats though I'll judge when I've sat in one - the original concepts showed the same seats as the Polish ones, which in turn are the same as the GWR HSTs, Austrian RailJet (Standard class) and various others, a seat I find very comfortable indeed.

Czech Railjet have them too

AGA are certainly getting LEAN seats, FISA have confirmed they got the contract from Abellio as of some months ago.

Stadler did propose the Grammar seating I heard, but the FISA seating was found to be more cost effective I heard from a good source, hence my comments about corner cutting.

It's not surprising though because the weight and the thickness of the materials on the LEAN and the lightness of it is always going to translate to a cheaper price and a lower servicing cost as there are less parts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will be interesting to see. As a heavily built tall male (particularly in the legs) I'm concerned about a design of seat that would force me to sit with legs pressed together, like the Class 158 original seat. I'd far rather see a design with a central pillar and space at the sides allowing me to sit with legs parallel, such as the Class 175/180 seat which really is very good, and a number of recent thin-backed plane seat designs. Would settle for a flat back, though - as I mentioned I like the Grammer seating a lot, particularly the high back and "wings" to rest your head.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not surprising though because the weight and the thickness of the materials on the LEAN and the lightness of it is always going to translate to a cheaper price and a lower servicing cost as there are less parts.

But will cheaper materials last?

 

[F Great Eastern]

But will cheaper materials last?

Apparently to be fair the LEAN's are quite well built as far as build quality goes, it's just that they're thinner and lighter and less parts because of tha more basic design that they are which saves money without sacrificing on build quality.

Have you been on the Pendolino's in standard class on PKP? Now there is a bad seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you been on the Pendolino's in standard class on PKP? Now there is a bad seat.

Yep, same seat as the Swiss and Italian Euro-Pendolinos. Legroom is absolutely terrible, and only because of the atrocious design, particularly the ridiculous placing of the cup holders and power sockets.

I only travel 1st on those trains, fortunately it is typically available at a good price in both CH and PL.

 

[dk1]

Not much homework done before starting this thread.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agreed, and whilst I havnt done any iether my definition of IC is a decent cumfy seat and no rain/wind/snow blowing in to the saloon when doors are open. Get these right and Im generally happy.

 

[chubs]

Not much homework done before starting this thread.

It's really grating the amount of hate being directed at Abellio when we have barely seen any mockups yet. We're finally getting the investment we've needed for so long. I think even if people don't admit it a lot of it is just people not wanting the old stock withdrawn.

 

[fgwrich]

Picking up on the comment about it being a downgrade similar to SWT introducing the 444s on the Weymouth Route, As Weymouth is a similar distance to Norwich I've always thought an updated 444 would be absolutely fine for this route. They are almost a modern equivalent to a Mk3 and having them in a similar 5/10 car formations would cater well for peak flow. They are reasonably comfortable units (I use them nearly every day) and as much as I'm a fan of the Mk3, id rather take the modern comforts offered by the 444.

 

[Bletchleyite]

444s are not a downgrade of anything, they are very nice InterCity-quality EMUs, really just an updated Wessie. The downgrade was using suburban layout EMUs on the Pompey Direct.

I did to some extent expect 4 or 5-car 444 a likes for Norwich (or even suburban layout EMUs with high quality seating like Southern Electrostars - as how, realistically, does it differ that much from the Brighton line?). The FLIRTs were a very welcome surprise.

 

[47802]

It's really grating the amount of hate being directed at Abellio when we have barely seen any mockups yet. We're finally getting the investment we've needed for so long. I think even if people don't admit it a lot of it is just people not wanting the old stock withdrawn.

Its amazing really a fleet of completely brand new trains and all we get is constant whining . Meanwhile in Northern land where I come from, while the Railbuses may be going there will still be a large fleet of clapped out sprinters for at least another 10 years.

 

[dk1]

It's really grating the amount of hate being directed at Abellio when we have barely seen any mockups yet. We're finally getting the investment we've needed for so long. I think even if people don't admit it a lot of it is just people not wanting the old stock withdrawn.

You only have to look at the hate for the IEP units going to Virgin East Coast & Great Western. Same happened with HSTs over Deltics back in the day. People need to grow up & move on but then I always look at it that these are not the people the TOCs need worry about as doubt they contribute that much to the farebox by photographing line side :roll:

 

[Wivenswold]

I too will reserve judgement until I use them but I'm delighted that Norwich isn't getting suburban trains. The increasing use of 321s to Norwich over the last few years seemed like a nod to the future.

I agree that Abellio are getting too much flak. Goes to prove that some people will always find fault, it's particularly noticeable when some use GA threads to vent spleen but are never found elsewhere on the forum. Clearly no general interest in railways, which is the purpose of this forum.

Abellio have to be applauded for their ambition, even if it turns out to be a bit of a downgrade seating-wise the introduction of wifi and air con on all services makes up in terms of my needs.

As for London to Norwich being a proper Intercity service, it's always been a bit of an outpost for the brand, but for the first time in 50-60 years, it will finally be getting brand-new stock. Surely that's something to celebrate.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Not everyone is obsessed with the age of the stock, age is a factor but it should not be the only one at the expense of everything else, sadly Abellio appear not to think so, because with every mock-up we see it appears that there are some more corners cut.

I always had issues about the deliverability of the bid and the fact it's quantity over quality from day one, but with every passing month it appears that another detail comes out to re-enforce that viewpoint about a corner that has been cut purely to save money.

The simple fact is the first renders of the FLIRT showed a proper intercity style seat and since the first renders the seating has been downgraded to what is designed to be an ultra high density, lightweight, budget regional seat and I think that is a cut too far.

On a train the basics you expect is for the seat to be comfortable for the duration of the journey the stock is intended for with sufficient leg-room, nothing I have seen in the last two or three months gives me the optimism that this will happen under this franchise.

Actually you will find that I really like the 444's and I'm disappointed that we didn't get any hear after them being touted for years. From everything that I have seen the FLIRT specification chosen by Abellio won't be as good, but then again I'm not obsessed with how old a train is to the point that some on here are who are more interested in how shiny the train is versus how comfortable it is.

By the way, I contribute a lot to UK railways both in the past and in the present and not just for a season ticket, but if you want to imagine that I don't have a season ticket, at the end of the day that is your choice, I can't really force you to believe me if you prefer to simply imagine it to be some other way.

To be honest the only stock I'm sad to see going is the 360s and the 379s which have better seating and spacing than the new trains which are coming in which is another downgrade in everything apart from capacity numbers, I think Abellio did a good job with the MK3's after the awful job by NXEA, but the 317/153/156 fleet needs to go and the 321 fleet is tired and the 170, nice enough but just too small.

 

[Dent]

It's really grating the amount of hate being directed at Abellio when we have barely seen any mockups yet.

Its amazing really a fleet of completely brand new trains and all we get is constant whining

Dismissing legitimate concerns based on the information available as "hate" or "whining" is hardly constructive.

Is this supposed to be a discussion forum? Reasoned criticism and mention of things that could be improved are integral parts of a balanced, reasoned discussion.

 

[dk1]

Dismissing legitimate concerns based on the information available as "hate" or "whining" is hardly constructive.

Is this supposed to be a discussion forum? Reasoned criticism and mention of things that could be improved are integral parts of a balanced, reasoned discussion.

I agree with you to a point but to be fair there are so many silly comments from enthusiasts simply because they do not want to lose there beloved loco-hauled trains. Only concern I have with the new IC fleet is toilets. We struggle with the reduced 7 now but that's dropping to 5 with no provision in 1st class at all. Thankfully a buffet is to be retained thus making it proper in my book.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Does anyone here seriously think the Stadler Flirt Greater Anglia 'Intercity's' are actually Intercity's at all? To me they are just regional trains with centrally located double commuter doors, with people pouring on in the middle of carriages, and a general lack of ambience for an Intercity. Then there's that 'power car' - what on Earth is that and why does no other train need one?

No, because largely the issue is internal comfort which is rather different from the build.

The FLIRTS we have over here in Finland are for the Helsinki commuter trains, that aside, the build quality is excellent, the ride is superb and even though they have commuter seating the ambience inside is very good and surprisingly quiet. Personally I find these commuter trains better than the intercity stock in many respects.

According to Staedler's brochures, the FLIRTS come in regional and intercity versions... http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/flirt200/





t.

Ian

 

[Dent]

I agree with you to a point but to be fair there are so many silly comments from enthusiasts simply because they do not want to lose there beloved loco-hauled trains.

What in this thread do you consider to be "silly comments", and why?

 

[dk1]

What in this thread do you consider to be "silly comments", and why?

I didn't mean in this thread, I'm talking in general about when new stock is introduced. There are often derogative or negative comments from enthusiasts with total dismissal of anything positive. Always been like that but there you go.

 

[chubs]

What in this thread do you consider to be "silly comments", and why?

The first post that the entire thread is based on is a silly comment. There are no power cars* in the IC sets. Until we see a proper mockup we can hardly say it is a downgrade from the Mk3's. We haven't seen a proper seat yet either, despite FGE writing them all off.

*regarding the power car in the regional sets considering how much noise the 170's and earlier 15x series make it's certainly an interesting solution too, not sure we can write them off before they've even been built.

 

[Dent]

I didn't mean in this thread, I'm talking in general about when new stock is introduced. There are often derogative or negative comments from enthusiasts with total dismissal of anything positive. Always been like that but there you go.

Are there really? What I see more often is reasoned discussion, followed by a few individuals trying to shut down the discussion by misrepresenting specific, reasoned criticism as "whining", "hate" or similarly derogatory terms. This thread is an example of this.

 

[dk1]

Are there really? What I see more often is reasoned discussion, followed by a few individuals trying to shut down the discussion by misrepresenting specific, reasoned criticism as "whining", "hate" or similarly derogatory terms. This thread is an example of this.

Oh dear, you seem to be looking at things far more deeply than I do then.