Stagecoach Cashless Trial - Illegal?

[Discuss223]

Unfortunately, Stagecoach have decided to run a cashless trial for adult single tickets on some of their buses in Kent. https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10162980981610891&set=g.1509891715859513 .

Tuula Pile​

trdoosepnSi3c5c1h06iml94f72hih5i838a4am11gham1luau02f7h17814 ·

I won't be using the bus! Unfortunately I'm disabled so I now have no choice but to use taxis as they accept cash

This is a disgrace.

It's unfriendly to those with certain disabilities, both mental and physical.

I was under the impression that all bus services needed to accept cash payments for tickets in order for them to be deemed a public service vehicle, as accepting cash means a service is open to any person of the public and not exclusively to those who have signed up to an organisation .e.g. a bank.

It's abhorrent.

Is there any way that the legalities of this can be challenged?

 

[Sun Chariot]

I am unclear how use of a contactless card is discriminatory, or an impediment, versus use of cash?

My 23 year old son has significant learning disabilities and is unable to understand what coins needed for any given value. Furthermore, his dyspraxia gives limited motor coordination of his fingers, creating difficulty in, for example, taking coins from a wallet
However, he has comfortably learned to use his debit card - contactless or PIN entry - in shops and the buses he needs.

Similarly, I would have thought someone with limited physical motor ability would find a contactless card easier to hold and use, than trying to hold and hand over several coins?

What in your view @Discuss223 is "abhorrent" & "a disgrace"?

 

[stevieinselby]

Unfortunately, Stagecoach have decided to run a cashless trial for adult single tickets on some of their buses in Kent. https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10162980981610891&set=g.1509891715859513 .
...
Is there any way that the legalities of this can be challenged?

Buses in London haven't accepted cash for over 10 years – if there was any legal challenge then it would have been made by now, and if there was any evidence of discrimination against vulnerable people then it would have come up long ago.

 

[Discuss223]

Buses in London haven't accepted cash for over 10 years – if there was any legal challenge then it would have been made by now, and if there was any evidence of discrimination against vulnerable people then it would have come up long ago.

In London, there are ticket outlets that sell tickets prior to boarding, presumably accepting cash.

 

[stevieinselby]

In London, there are ticket outlets that sell tickets prior to boarding, presumably accepting cash.

How many people who can't have a contactless bank card would manage with getting to a local shop and topping up their Oyster card using cash?

 

[HullRailMan]

Surely if your disability was so severe that you were unable to manage a bank account or contactless card, you’d have a free disabled bus pass which would make your whole argument void. Plenty of business are now cash only as it reduces overheads and is safer by reducing the risk of theft.

 

[Non Multi]

Making bus travel harder for the unbanked and those struggling at the fringes of society is not a good look. There are plenty of those individuals in the coastal towns where this trial is planned. I'm quite sure the local MPs will be in touch with the bus manager overseeing this trial in due course.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was under the impression that all bus services needed to accept cash payments for tickets in order for them to be deemed a public service vehicle, as accepting cash means a service is open to any person of the public and not exclusively to those who have signed up to an organisation .e.g. a bank.

That’s not correct. There is no statutory requirement for buses to accept cash payments.

 

[RHolmes]

I have no objection to cashless public transport services, We’re years behind the rest of Europe in this regard.

London - Cashless
Guernsey - Cashless
Berlin - Cashless
Amsterdam - Cashless
Rotterdam - Cashless
Valencia - Cashless
Slovenia - Cashless (Arriva)

 

[185143]

I have no objection to cashless public transport services, We’re years behind the rest of Europe in this regard.

London - Cashless
Guernsey - Cashless
Berlin - Cashless
Amsterdam - Cashless
Rotterdam - Cashless
Valencia - Cashless
Slovenia - Cashless (Arriva)

Try getting on a Dublin Bus without cash though.

 

[Sun Chariot]

It's unfriendly to those with certain disabilities, both mental and physical.
accepting cash means a service is open to any person of the public and not exclusively to those who have signed up to ... a bank.

I'm still unclear what discriminatory angle your post is about, @Discuss223
The DWP only pays a person's disability benefit (e.g. PIP) into a recipient's bank account.
How else do you think a person will receive and access their money?

Someone with a disability too severe for them to have a bank account in their own name is, I suggest, unlikely to be making use of public transport on their own.

 

[mchunt]

Unfortunately, Stagecoach have decided to run a cashless trial for adult single tickets on some of their buses in Kent. https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10162980981610891&set=g.1509891715859513 .

This is a disgrace.

It's unfriendly to those with certain disabilities, both mental and physical.

I was under the impression that all bus services needed to accept cash payments for tickets in order for them to be deemed a public service vehicle, as accepting cash means a service is open to any person of the public and not exclusively to those who have signed up to an organisation .e.g. a bank.

It's abhorrent.

Is there any way that the legalities of this can be challenged?

I am unclear how use of a contactless card is discriminatory, or an impediment, versus use of cash?

My 23 year old son has significant learning disabilities and is unable to understand what coins needed for any given value. Furthermore, his dyspraxia gives limited motor coordination of his fingers, creating difficulty in, for example, taking coins from a wallet
However, he has comfortably learned to use his debit card - contactless or PIN entry - in shops and the buses he needs.

Similarly, I would have thought someone with limited physical motor ability would find a contactless card easier to hold and use, than trying to hold and hand over several coins?

What in your view @Discuss223 is "abhorrent" & "a disgrace"?

And those disabled enough not to be able to handle digital payment methods should be eligible for a disabled bus pass.

My son has Autism and has a disabled bus pass, if he needed to pay he would use contactless as notes and coins are too confusing.

 

[Sun Chariot]

How many people who can't have a contactless bank card would manage with getting to a local shop and topping up their Oyster card using cash?

Exactly

And those disabled enough not to be able to handle digital payment methods should be eligible for a disabled bus pass.

My son has Autism and has a disabled bus pass, if he needed to pay he would use contactless as notes and coins are too confusing.

Spot on. It's the same for my son (post #2).
As of 1st April, Hampshire County Council has now imposed restrictions on times that he can use his disabled bus pass - meaning he now has to pay contactless to travel to his place of supported learning. Perverse logic...

 

[Snow1964]

Spot on. It's the same for my son (post #2).
As of 1st April, Hampshire County Council has now imposed restrictions on times that he can use his disabled bus pass - meaning he now has to pay contactless to travel to his place of supported learning. Perverse logic...

DfT updated the rules on ENCTS and eligibility for disabled travel passes on 1st April. The Council is probably only passing on changes that it gets reimbursed for

The English National Concessionary Travel Scheme (ENCTS) provides free off-peak local bus travel to eligible older people and eligible disabled people on bus services in England. Locally, the scheme is administered by travel concession authorities (TCAs).

This guidance is to assist TCAs in assessing the eligibility of disabled applicants for the ENCTS.

Assessing eligibility for concessionary bus travel

Guidance for local authorities in England on how to assess the eligibility of disabled people for concessionary bus travel.

www.gov.uk

Eligibility of free travel to school is a DfE specification, and has been that pupils can walk to Secondary school up to 3 miles for years (I think it goes back to Education Act 1944 when the Government were planning for post war Britain)

 

[Sun Chariot]

DfT updated the rules on ENCTS and eligibility for disabled travel passes on 1st April. The Council is probably only passing on changes that it gets reimbursed for

Assessing eligibility for concessionary bus travel

Guidance for local authorities in England on how to assess the eligibility of disabled people for concessionary bus travel.

www.gov.uk

Eligibility of free travel to school is a DfE and has been can walk to Secondary school up to 3 miles for years (I think it goes back to Education Act 1944 as the were planning for post war Britain)

Thanks @Snow1964 yes, my wife and I read that info a few weeks ago. My son's place of supported learning is 9 miles away from home.
Even if it were close, he doesn't have a concept of how close or fast traffic is moving; and we've had to wrench him back out of the road on several occasions. Crossing roads on his own, unless with dedicated light-controlled crossing, is a no.

Frustratingly, if he'd qualified for UC - he does not - then the Council would fund and provide a taxi both ways, each day. Arguably costing Hampshire Council far more than his peak hour bus. Yet more perverse logic....

 

[RT4038]

DfT updated the rules on ENCTS and eligibility for disabled travel passes on 1st April. The Council is probably only passing on changes that it gets reimbursed for

Assessing eligibility for concessionary bus travel

Guidance for local authorities in England on how to assess the eligibility of disabled people for concessionary bus travel.

www.gov.uk

Disabled travel passes have only ever been an 'off peak' statutory entitlement. Some Local Transport Authorities have funded more generous arrangements, but LTAs are getting squeezed more and more by Social Care and SEND costs which are causing them to review all discretionary expenditure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many people who can't have a contactless bank card would manage with getting to a local shop and topping up their Oyster card using cash?

How many such people would manage travelling alone? Or indeed paying cash to the driver?

 

[renegademaster]

While i doubt the disability angle would work i thought it was a condition of the "fare cap" scheme that operators had to accept cash to recieve the subsidy

 

[Mwanesh]

Its a trial .Dont see what the fuss is about.Cape Town My Citi in South Africa is also cashless .Why are people afraid of change.Everyone probably has a bank card these days .

 

[MCR247]

It’s one of those situations where I do think there is a conversation to be had around cash but I think describing it as ‘abhorrent’ or a ‘disgrace’ almost makes it easier to dismiss.

The original comment also coming from a disgruntled person on Facebook also means it’s not really able to be looking into further as so much context isn’t given

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s one of those situations where I do think there is a conversation to be had around cash but I think describing it as ‘abhorrent’ or a ‘disgrace’ almost makes it easier to dismiss.

The original comment also coming from a disgruntled person on Facebook also means it’s not really able to be looking into further as so much context isn’t given

The big problem with the pro-cash movement is it’s riddled with able bodied conspiracists who also try to hide behind “discrimination”. No disability charity has successfully challenged cashless buses so far in this country, I don’t think?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its a trial .Dont see what the fuss is about.Cape Town My Citi in South Africa is also cashless .Why are people afraid of change.Everyone probably has a bank card these days .

My Citi is a very odd thing - it's a prepaid MasterCard but can only be used for paying for travel. And you can't just use any MasterCard, only that one.

 

[WestAnglian]

Unfortunately, Stagecoach have decided to run a cashless trial for adult single tickets on some of their buses in Kent. https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10162980981610891&set=g.1509891715859513 .

This is a disgrace.

It's unfriendly to those with certain disabilities, both mental and physical.

I was under the impression that all bus services needed to accept cash payments for tickets in order for them to be deemed a public service vehicle, as accepting cash means a service is open to any person of the public and not exclusively to those who have signed up to an organisation .e.g. a bank.

It's abhorrent.

Is there any way that the legalities of this can be challenged?

If there was a disability issue then TfL would have found themselves on the wrong side of the courts some time between the removal of the ability to take cash in 2014 and now. That didn't happen. I really can't see how it discrimimnates in any way, unless you're suggesting that disabled people are capable of fiddling with coins but are unable to use a flat piece of plastic.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The big problem with the pro-cash movement is it’s riddled with able bodied conspiracists who also try to hide behind “discrimination”. No disability charity has successfully challenged cashless buses so far in this country, I don’t think?

I think that's it in a nutshell. Whether you believe that being pro-cash is essential to limit the power of businesses and states, and reduce the amount of data that is available to various actors, is entirely up to the individual but it doesn't bear close examination when you look at the circumstances of disability benefit payment.

If there was a legal angle, we'd have seen it tested in the near 11 years in London.

 

[sannox]

Try getting on a Dublin Bus without cash though.

Leap card?

I do find TFI / Dublin bus can be a bit annoying in this respect - notes not being accepted too.

 

[Indigo Soup]

The DWP only pays a person's disability benefit (e.g. PIP) into a recipient's bank account.

Indeed I believe all benefits (child benefit, pensions, unemployment, etc.) are now only paid into a bank account, and virtually all landlords won't take cash for rent either. This is why lack of banking facilities is such a major problem.

The big problem with the pro-cash movement is it’s riddled with able bodied conspiracists who also try to hide behind “discrimination”. No disability charity has successfully challenged cashless buses so far in this country, I don’t think?

That, and a reasonable part of the pro-cash movement is trying to provide legitimate cover for tax evasion. If you want to try and hide your income, that's between you and HMRC, but there's no reason to compel businesses to facilitate it - or to hide behind disabilities.

 

[berneyarms]

Leap card?

I do find TFI / Dublin bus can be a bit annoying in this respect - notes not being accepted too.

Very good reasons for it.

There were a significant number of vicious attacks on drivers to steal what cash they had - it become a serious employee safety issue.

 

[sannox]

Very good reasons for it.

There were a significant number of vicious attacks on drivers to steal what cash they had - it become a serious employee safety issue.

Oh exact fare isn't an issue, but not accepting contactless as well is annoying as it can be difficult to get sufficient coins to some fares!

 

[berneyarms]

Oh exact fare isn't an issue, but not accepting contactless as well is annoying as it can be difficult to get sufficient coins to some fares!

Either get a normal or visitor LEAP card. Why pay over the odds?

 

[Darandio]

Indeed I believe all benefits (child benefit, pensions, unemployment, etc.) are now only paid into a bank account

The payment exception service exists. I still see quite a few people in the Post Office next door to where I work redeeming payment by text message on a daily basis.