Stagecoach groups plans for crossforth hovercraft grounded

[Blindtraveler]

http://www.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2011/2011-12-09.aspx



disgusting! A real chance to sort out the traffic jam that is currently the A90 and will in a few years be a new (as yet unnumbered) route to/from the kingdom and the people in charge have thrown it away!

I live 5 mins away from the terminal that now woant be built and although I shared some of the concerns on travel connections, primarilly capacity on the 26 bus this would have been an improvement in so many ways for both people and places!

 

[robertclark125]

I think the plan may have been for dedicated shuttle buses, as per the 2007 trial. What worries me more now is the damage done to Edinburgh City Council's reputation

 

[Yew]

Maybe they could build a tram system? Ill get my Coat

 

[Ploughman]

How many Hovercraft schemes operate now or have operated in the UK?

I seem to remember 1 in North Wales.
1 Between Southport and Blackpool.
Hoverspeed on Cross channel.
and the links to the Isle of White

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think the plan may have been for dedicated shuttle buses, as per the 2007 trial. What worries me more now is the damage done to Edinburgh City Council's reputation

ur, what reputation is this?
They had very little for quite a while and managed even to lose that when they continued at much greater cost with the tram rather than scrapping them. they pritty much have just lost the election with 6 months to go before pols open!

 

[tbtc]

Bad news - well done to Stagecoach for having a bit of ambition, sadly not matched by politicians who've had the fingers burnt by the trams.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Bad news - well done to Stagecoach for having a bit of ambition, sadly not matched by politicians who've had the fingers burnt by the trams.

more like they can see the dosh they make from extortionate parking charges and fines pritty much stopping if they give the goahead to another mode of transport thats not a car!

 

[kylemore]

The Firth of Forth is a very exposed area to run a hovercraft service, in winter it would be very unreliable.
The hovercraft cannot take people to the main centre of Edinburgh, a connecting bus would be neccesary from Portobello or Seafield, as a summer novelty for tourists or leisure travellers great but a serious Fife to Edinburgh Transport solution - Not.
Surely the solution to this problem is obvious - electrify the Fife circle and run a service of 6 car trains at lower fares instantly increasing capacity by 200%!
Then develop the service with more frequent services and or extensions subject to capacity considerations at Waverley.
There is no need for complicated or "clever" schemes it's really quite simple, just exploit whats already there!

 

[tbtc]

The Firth of Forth is a very exposed area to run a hovercraft service, in winter it would be very unreliable.
The hovercraft cannot take people to the main centre of Edinburgh, a connecting bus would be neccesary from Portobello or Seafield, as a summer novelty for tourists or leisure travellers great but a serious Fife to Edinburgh Transport solution - Not.
Surely the solution to this problem is obvious - electrify the Fife circle and run a service of 6 car trains at lower fares instantly increasing capacity by 200%!
Then develop the service with more frequent services and or extensions subject to capacity considerations at Waverley.
There is no need for complicated or "clever" schemes it's really quite simple, just exploit whats already there!

There are

• 2 services an hour via Dunfermline
• 2 services an hour via Kinghorn
• 1 service an hour to Perth
• 1 service an hour to Dundee
• 1 service an hour to Aberdeen

...plus peak extras (and the East Coast HSTs). So where is the scope to triple the Fife Circle services? Especially given the number of four/five/six coach trains crossing the bridge, I can't see where your 200% comes from.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There are

• 2 services an hour via Dunfermline
• 2 services an hour via Kinghorn
• 1 service an hour to Perth
• 1 service an hour to Dundee
• 1 service an hour to Aberdeen

...plus peak extras (and the East Coast HSTs). So where is the scope to triple the Fife Circle services? Especially given the number of four/five/six coach trains crossing the bridge, I can't see where your 200% comes from.

and also cant see where they'd get the paths. It only needs 1 thing to wrong for the route to snarle up and I havent even started on capacity at EDB. If paths could be found for, say a semi fast circle run then iether it or one or more of the regular services would0I think need to be caped at HYM platform 0.

Wiring0would be an idea certainly as it would do something to journey times and perhaps make way for a semi fast Waverley,0Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkaldy, Glenrothes, Dunfermline, Inverkeithing, Haymarket, Waverley but the point of the hovercraft was to cut journey times. Even with an express bus journey thats needed from the terminal it would I believe have beaten the train by quite a bit, not to mention provided a direct link with many offices and busineses not near the station

 

[kylemore]

Ok I know its only anecdotal but any time I observe Fife local trains the vast majority seem to be 2 car rattlers. Replaced with 6 car electrics hey presto 200%.
Also faster electric trains mean more trains can be run.
Yes money would have to be spent on infrastructure and capacity improvements but theres easily the potential to increase pax numbers by huge amounts.
The Stagecoach Fife network is very profitable and to be fair well run, the last they want is a revitalised Fife rail network, they're quite happy with it staying as a low grade basic 2 car rattler service rather than it being converted to a grown up,modern high capacity, high quality, electrified suburban network which would leave stagecoach's cross Forth services standing!
Hence distractions like Hovercraft schemes, you'll note that initial losses where to be shouldered by the state before profits (if any) could be trousered by Stagecoach! I don't blame them they're only looking after their interests, it might be different if they were to get Scotrail.

 

[tbtc]

Ok I know its only anecdotal but any time I observe Fife local trains the vast majority seem to be 2 car rattlers. Replaced with 6 car electrics hey presto 200%.
Also faster electric trains mean more trains can be run.
Yes money would have to be spent on infrastructure and capacity improvements but theres easily the potential to increase pax numbers by huge amounts.
The Stagecoach Fife network is very profitable and to be fair well run, the last they want is a revitalised Fife rail network, they're quite happy with it staying as a low grade basic 2 car rattler service

I can't remember seeing many two coach services over the Forth Bridge for a while now, its generally three coach 170s (off peak), four coach 158s (e.g. the Dundee semi-fasts) or five/six (Aberdeen services and peak Fife Circles).

Not sure about "rattlers" either - a fairly modern set of DMUs (in comparison).

Also bear in mind that before National Express came along there were three trains an hour over the Forth Bridge (the hourly circle, in each direction, plus one Aberdeen service), with 117s on some services and 150s on others. In comparison, the Fife service is significantly better nowadays.

As an example, this is the number of people using a six coach 170 at South Gyle http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5172621502/ (with no doubt hundreds more for Waverley). Where is the scope to extend this further?

 

[kylemore]

Spend enough money and you can do anything you want!
OK the present diesel service has been taken as far as it can go, are you saying it would be impossible to take it to the next level?
What I'am suggesting is not a piecemeal scheme but a Bathgate style re-vamp where a half-hourly 2 car diesel was replaced with 4 3 car(at least) trains an hour.
With the inherent advantages rail has (or should have) in this market there should be no space for the extensive cross Forth bus services that exist at present never mind hare-brained hovercraft schemes!
P.S The last time I conducted a "scientific" study of traffic was in July from a seat outside the Hawes Inn for a couple of hours having a few pints. I dont think I drank to much to affect my observational powers but it seemed to me the majority of crossing trains were 2 car!

 

[tbtc]

Spend enough money and you can do anything you want!
OK the present diesel service has been taken as far as it can go, are you saying it would be impossible to take it to the next level?
What I'am suggesting is not a piecemeal scheme but a Bathgate style re-vamp where a half-hourly 2 car diesel was replaced with 4 3 car(at least) trains an hour.
With the inherent advantages rail has (or should have) in this market there should be no space for the extensive cross Forth bus services that exist at present never mind hare-brained hovercraft schemes!
P.S The last time I conducted a "scientific" study of traffic was in July from a seat outside the Hawes Inn for a couple of hours having a few pints. I dont think I drank to much to affect my observational powers but it seemed to me the majority of crossing trains were 2 car!

I'm perfectly happy to let other contributors comment on the length of the average Fife train.

But bear in mind that you are comparing the Bathgate line (a half hourly DMU on a two track line, albeit a lot of services had more than two coaches) with the Forth Bridge (seven trains an hour, over a two track line)...

...there was plenty of scope to squeeze additional trains onto the Bathgate line, but there isn't on the Forth Bridge. Also, bear in mind that the Bathgate services are all running at the same speed (stopping at each station east of Bathgate), whereas the Fife services vary from "all stops" to "non stop between Haymarket and Leuchars", so its a lot harder to fit services in.

Because of the serious capacity problems over the Forth Bridge, I can see why the powers that be have considered Hovercraft/ additional bus/coach services to try to ease pressure from the trains.

Lastly, not everyone wants to go into central Edinburgh. There's demand for places in the west of the city (e.g. the 747 bus that links Fife to the Airport, RBS HQ, Gyle shops/ Herriot Watt etc) and demand between Fife and the north/east (e.g. a Hovercraft at Portobello could have a shuttle bus taking commuters to the offices in Leith or to the ERI). With so much demand between Fife and Edinburgh, a "one size" policy won't work.

 

[kylemore]

OK lets say that most trains are 3 car, that still means that 6 car trains could double and 9 car trains could triple capacity.
A supposed "Mainline" thats strectched by 7 trains an hour and the odd Freight sounds pretty pathetic to me!
As for serving a greater range of destinations I totally agree, the best way of doing this would be to re-open from Abbeyhill to Leith/North Edinburgh/Waterfront. The 6/9 car Fife electrics (and the Bathgate/Stirling/Shotts trains) would continue on from Waverley to a range of destinations thereby releasing huge capacity in Waverley as they would no longer turn there, a true high quality suburban network for Edinburgh.
We need a bit of vision not the usual "can't do" attitude.

 

[tbtc]

OK lets say that most trains are 3 car, that still means that 6 car trains could double and 9 car trains could triple capacity

There are many longer than three car. But, even so, how are you going to extend every platform to nine coaches?

A supposed "Mainline" thats strectched by 7 trains an hour and the odd Freight sounds pretty pathetic to me!

Its almost fifteen miles from Waverley to Inverkeithing, with seven passenger services off peak running at different speeds (e.g. stopping at South Gyle, Dalmeney and North Queensferry, and then all round the circle or running non stop to Leuchars)... the stoppers take about eight minutes longer to reach Kirkcaldy than those that only stop at Inverkeithing (the Dundee/Perth trains)... there aren't many lines with that variety of services (in terms of speeds) that cope with that level of service over such a long distance

We need a bit of vision not the usual "can't do" attitude

I think you need a bottomless pot of cash

 

[Blindtraveler]

some nice dream ideas there but the realitty is that not only is the money not there but a lot of other things arnt iether. Its already been pointed out that 1 of NX groups positive legacies was a Fife service improvement programme, built on later by first with the new stock and later by first and TS w4th the recast of the fife, dundee and aberdeen timetable!

What angers me is Edinburgh councils inabilitty to handle publick transport projects. They build a tram line nobody wants and that will simply replace a perfectly good bus service and now this. And i havnt started on there obsession with zoned, permitted or otherwise chargable parking not just in town but in the suberbs also which hampers those who may want to park and ride, walk etc. Yes there are P and R sites but not enough and Edinburgh is stil a city of the car.

 

[kylemore]

Not a bottomless pit of money but yes money.

In say Germany proposals such as I've mapped out would be regarded as modest in conurbations even smaller than the Edinburgh travel to work area.

The fact that even pro-rail people here regard them as utter pie in the sky says more about the UK/Scottish mindset than the merit of what is actually being proposed.
But not just that but our competence also, the money already spent on the Edinburgh Tram could have provided the above and probably more.

 

[Blindtraveler]

now that, is a valid comment and I suspect that if a majority SNP Government had been in charge for longer the tram would not have happened as it was the previous administration that put up some funding with the0SNP dead against. i think a metro style heavy rail system round here would be fantastic with certainly 1 terminus being dunbar as wel as the bits you propose. however, 9 coaches over the bridge at peak is0not an option I dont think as most platforms are already lengthened to the full extent.

If it were possible which its not, one way of solving fife capacity would be to rerout the express runs e.g aberdeen and inverness via Stirling but again I think there is capacity issues there too.
In future, post EGIP, wires may appear to Perth or dundee meaning this kind of thing happens but for the moment Im not sure what else can be done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
on the subject of the SR franchise, I cant see stagecoach winning it without a fight with the competition commission as with there own network plus there shares in citylink, there megabus network and depending who gets west or east coast there part in virgin rail group
they would be dominating the transport sector. i suspect it wil go iether to first again, not bad but could in some ways be better or back to NX TO THE SOUND OF LOUD GROANS FROM ALL CONCERNED.

 

[tbtc]

Todmorden Curve: £8.8m for a 500 metre single track chord (no electrification, no platform extensions, no Forth Bridge to deal with...). Need I say any more?

Edinburgh has had new stations (Newcraighall, Brunstane, Edinburgh Park) in recent years, as well as various P&R sites in/around the city (Newcraighall, Ingleston, Straiton etc).

I'm old enough to remember when the only suburban stations in the city were on the Shotts line (e.g. pre South Gyle).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

on the subject of the SR franchise, I cant see stagecoach winning it without a fight with the competition commission as with there own network plus there shares in citylink, there megabus network and depending who gets west or east coast there part in virgin rail group
they would be dominating the transport sector. i suspect it wil go iether to first again, not bad but could in some ways be better or back to NX TO THE SOUND OF LOUD GROANS FROM ALL CONCERNED.

I think First ran 55% of Scotland's buses - the figure was quoted when they attacked Lothian Buses a decade ago. In comparison Stagecoach are much smaller in Scotland.

 

[Blindtraveler]

they have more long distance no than last time I think and of course all the fife edinburgh express work.

 

[robertclark125]

Plans do exist, albeit in 15-20 years, to electrify the Fife Circle. Wiring it up won't solve the capacity problems that still exist. Plans still exist, incidentally, for a Burntisland to Granton ferry service, based on the former Forth Ferries service of the early 1990s.

 

[Blindtraveler]

and il bet you a fiver that Edinburgh wash it out too! Agree wiring woant solve the problems

 

[Mojo]

Rather than a presumably biased press release from Stagecoach's website, can anyone provide details as to why the permission was refused (eg. complaints from local residents)?

 

[Blindtraveler]

if you look on BBC News theres little more detail. Unable to link it as on phone but there main headake was transport connections and possible noise.

On noise, there would be more of it during building work than opperation as its foot passenger only, I'd understand if there was a stream of heavies rumbling round the area but....

On transport, as already stated the trial opperated with dedicated express busses and0in theory this should of been the case if approved but as they have sited transport probs then it says to me that they were going to expect people to use the regular service 26s and 15s to0leave the terminal, something which is not practicle as the 26s although regular are always full!

As I say, not much more in any regular media sadly. I live 5 mins from the proposed terminal and everybody Iv asked has said it would be good, particularly as somebody posted for hospital workers who currently have a bus from the north side of the bridge but not from other Fife areas or the usual travel0via city centre.
This is just the council making another election losing desision
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
in short, its a disaster and id have said that, for once that release was quite fare!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I wish that I'd read the post which had "reputation" and "Edinburgh City Council" in the same sentence earlier today, it would have ensured that I had a smile on my face all day long!

. . .
Because of the serious capacity problems over the Forth Bridge, I can see why the powers that be have considered Hovercraft/ additional bus/coach services to try to ease pressure from the trains.
. . . . .

I agree. My only constructive comment is that I've always wished that the 'new' Forth Crossing would carry both road and rail traffic, partly for these reasons (capacity and future expansion - the Forth Bridge sees virtually constant traffic all day long) but because that beautiful and iconic but aged Bridge might just not last forever. And when a fatal failure is found, its replacement may be needed instantly.

Its probably not too late. A heavy-freight-cabable dual track railway on the new Bridge will help Scottish transport in many ways, both in terms of capacity now, and with assurances for demands into the long term - that's something we often fail to plan for.

 

[Blindtraveler]

thankyou Dave, the voice of reason as ever and glad your enjoying the entertaining nature of the latest farce by the supposed goveners of Scotlands capital! They have sat back, taken my cash and in the process taken years to aprove the Waverley steps, thankfully now under way, build a tram nobody wants and basically said f you to so many comuters and there journeys, so many times its unreal!

 

[robertclark125]

And I'll tell you another aspect where the city council have shot themselves in the foot; they're the biggest shareholder in Lothian Buses, and presumabley as the Portobello terminal would be near their Marine depot, they would provide either the dedicated buses, and/or the 26 into the city centre. Extra income for Lothian Buses, which has just been thrown out. And I bet the city council don't tell you that!

 

[Blindtraveler]

correct! Marine opperate all routes down this end and as you say rite past the terminal site with the acception of the 49. The 15/a, 21, 26, x26, 42 and 69 are all Marine vehicles and drivers and theres also the first 129. only other difference is the N26 nightbus opperated by central.

On the subject of the 26, and X26, they could encourage more to use it if they wernt rammed solid most of the day and the X ran outwith the peak, even once an hour!

 

[tbtc]

On the subject of the 26, and X26, they could encourage more to use it if they wernt rammed solid most of the day and the X ran outwith the peak, even once an hour!

Until the millenium the 26 was only every fifteen minutes, with a fifteen minute "fast" version (85/86, via Waterloo Road etc). Those were the days...

My only constructive comment is that I've always wished that the 'new' Forth Crossing would carry both road and rail traffic, partly for these reasons (capacity and future expansion - the Forth Bridge sees virtually constant traffic all day long) but because that beautiful and iconic but aged Bridge might just not last forever. And when a fatal failure is found, its replacement may be needed instantly.

Its probably not too late. A heavy-freight-cabable dual track railway on the new Bridge will help Scottish transport in many ways, both in terms of capacity now, and with assurances for demands into the long term - that's something we often fail to plan for.

Very good point Dave - if there's any structural problems found with The Bridge then there's no Plan B. The length of it and seven trains/hour in each direction mean you couldn't insist on only one train on it at a time (like they used to have on the Tay Rail Bridge, now only restricted to the central section IIRC).