Stagecoach West - Fleet News & Discussion

[markymark2000]

It's been a long-standing link that has recently been lost (i.e. Lydney to Cinderford) - it's just a collection of different services just squished into one.

Long standing doesn't always mean well used.

That may be frustrating but if you're relying on 5 minute connections, then you're cutting it very fine.

5 minute connection is industry standard, just like trains. It all works well until you get the driver change which kills it because like a few other depots where the changeover is right outside, drivers wait till they see their bus outside before they finish their coffee, go the loo, have the last chat with the desk and then walk so slow to the bus and then they insist on faffing with everything when instead, they could be at the stop, sort things quickly, drive the minute to the market Square and let people make their connections.

As regards cross border services, just last week, I travelled on the Cinderford to Ross service. Granted, it was midday but after Lydbrook, I had the bus to myself to Ross. You mention Ledbury... well, that is served by the 232 and it is jointly supported by Herefordshire and Gloucestershire councils as it serves Newent; with limited funds to replace the withdrawn 132 (Ross to Ledbury) and 32 (Newent to Ledbury), that was the best they could do with what money they had.

Cinderford to Ross isn't exactly a good example though as the 786 isn't very good as it's only 2 trips per day to Ross. Both trips go completely different ways. The trip you were on has no return service and is basically the return shopper trip to drop people off who have been shopping in Cinderford.

The 232 was set up a lot of different funding pots, not all Gloucestershire/Hereford. There was fundraising and local businesses paying in. Every town and parish council along the route paying in.

As for the 72, the Mon-Fri and Sat services AREN'T completely different. It has 6 journeys M-F and 5 on Sat, of which 3 are the same times on both (0902/1102/1302 ex Chepstow with 0938/1138/1338 return from Lydney). The M-F times are different because clearly it's built around a school contract; that probably underpins the tender and means they could actually staff it. And of course, the 72 IS an example where a service that is mainly in Gloucestershire does extend across the border into Chepstow as it is a natural traffic destination.

The 72 isnt meant to be set up around the school but set up more around the commitments of Newport Bus in Chepstow with their mad cross networking so that they can get drivers back to Newport for breaks. All Chepstow local routes face the same issues on Saturdays with different timetables.

Agreed the 72 is one of few examples where the bus is provided cross border.

Might also add that Stagecoach (and Applegates) services from Dursley to Thornbury (again, over the border) as does the 69 as it runs into Old Sodbury to form the 620 - all GCC subsidised . In the pantheon of councils with ambivalence to local bus services, I'd not be citing GCC too highly.

GCC isn't all bad and do fund some routes cross border but its certainly not the best. I'd also stress that providing a bus doesn't mean it's overly useful and going to attract anyone other than pass holders going for a free trip out. The bus has to be provided at a reasonably frequency, a few times per day bus isn't that attractive and if anything, that is generally all that is provided cross border. There's plenty of links which aren't provided or have dismal provision which makes them useless to anyone but pass holders shopping.

S2 does have a local function, not sure coaches would work - defo was less successful than it is now when Swanbrook worked it with coaches as the 853, though there were other problems there. Don't see any reason why NX and Megabus couldn't resell tickets anyway, they do that for plenty of other bus routes.

Not much shorter distance travel except for Woodstock Road in my experience but that could just be my experience.

How much of the success is down to ticket acceptance though? Swanbrook of course couldn't offer the ticket acceptance at either end and was competing with Stagecoach for the Witney passengers, now it's all merged so passengers get more for their money and the operating costs of the Cheltenham section are just Witney to Cheltenham (with Oxford to Witney covered by the already established S2 route) rather than the full Cheltenham to Oxford.

NX/Mega selling tickets on bus routes for this longer distance isn't as common, it's mostly high quality bus routes at around 90 minutes or it's coach services. Yes some exceptions exist but not many. It's not exactly an attractive proposition is it for either coach firm to offer tickets on a standard bus for a 2 hour journey.

 

[RELL6L]

These proposals seems encouraging. Hopefully a better evening service on some routes might get a few more people to use them in daytime.
I'm pleased with the Lydney-Cinderford proposal, this was withdrawn only last year I think. It used to be good bus territory along the road through the forest down to Blakeney but its probably more affluent now. Its quite scenic.
I do wonder if Bishops Cleeve needs five buses an hour! Not convinced about the S2 going hourly but it is encouraging that it sounds to be doing well. Going back the 801 used to be hourly and there was a better 855 connecting at Bourton on the Water.
When I first saw this I was disappointed that Newent to Ross and Ledbury hadn't been replaced - I had totally missed the 232 coming in - good news!

 

[carpo]

Further to this S2 news - it was interesting to see the article at https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/2-million-of-extra-bus-funding/ which also relates to West Oxforshire a lot specifically:

provide a new bus service between Witney, Carterton, and Swindon - assume this is the reintroduction of the old 64 service?
new direct faster buses between Carterton and Oxford. - Wondering if this a return of the the S2X (probably not under that name as that wouldn't make any sense) in the future which would be a big win after the reforms last summer to the S1.

 

[Parebunks]

Further to this S2 news - it was interesting to see the article at https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/2-million-of-extra-bus-funding/ which also relates to West Oxforshire a lot specifically:

provide a new bus service between Witney, Carterton, and Swindon - assume this is the reintroduction of the old 64 service?
new direct faster buses between Carterton and Oxford. - Wondering if this a return of the the S2X (probably not under that name as that wouldn't make any sense) in the future which would be a big win after the reforms last summer to the S1.

I've mentioned some of this in other threads, but doesn't hurt to repeat here - Witney to Swindon is indeed the 64, going to Pulhams at 4/day from Carterton Monday-Saturday with three continuing to Witney. There were some disputes between the relevant councils on funding, I believe it's all ended up as an Oxfordshire contract. Starting 27th November along with most of the other Oxon schemes, unless the bridge at Lechlade is still shut.
The Carterton-Oxford is indeed pretty much a return of the S2X - two peaktime journeys Mon-Fri. Carterton Town Council have posted to their Facebook a consultation on exact times.

 

[carpo]

That's really helpful thanks - be interesting to see who runs the route.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Long standing doesn't always mean well used.

That is true enough though the flip side is that at least you know there is some demand rather than something totally untried. Rather than it being a complete waste of money, they may at least have some information as to historical usage.

5 minute connection is industry standard, just like trains. It all works well until you get the driver change which kills it because like a few other depots where the changeover is right outside, drivers wait till they see their bus outside before they finish their coffee, go the loo, have the last chat with the desk and then walk so slow to the bus and then they insist on faffing with everything when instead, they could be at the stop, sort things quickly, drive the minute to the market Square and let people make their connections.

The 5 min doesn't have a legislative basis though, and it's certainly not something that I'd be relying on. As for drivers' urgency or lack of, that has been the same since time immemorial with certain drivers.

Cinderford to Ross isn't exactly a good example though as the 786 isn't very good as it's only 2 trips per day to Ross. Both trips go completely different ways. The trip you were on has no return service and is basically the return shopper trip to drop people off who have been shopping in Cinderford.

The 232 was set up a lot of different funding pots, not all Gloucestershire/Hereford. There was fundraising and local businesses paying in. Every town and parish council along the route paying in.

I guess the point I was making was that it isn't like Somerset and North Somerset; Gloucestershire CC don't arbitrarily stop services at the county boundary. In fairness to GCC, there are plenty of examples where they do go across the border and you see that with Stagecoach's services to Dursley etc.

I'm really not wishing to be contentious, but I can't see too many areas where there's an obvious corridor to improve. For instance, FoD into Monmouth... lovely place as Monmouth, the reality is that places like Coleford and Cinderford will look to Gloucester to travel. That was what Stagecoach did with the 30/31.

The 72 isnt meant to be set up around the school but set up more around the commitments of Newport Bus in Chepstow with their mad cross networking so that they can get drivers back to Newport for breaks. All Chepstow local routes face the same issues on Saturdays with different timetables.

Agreed the 72 is one of few examples where the bus is provided cross border.

It's built around Wyedean school so even without the interworking, you'd still have the same challenge regarding M-F vs Saturday. Given the amount of work they have in Chepstow, I was surprised that they didn't base some vehicles local and yes, the interworking is a bit special.

 

[markymark2000]

The 5 min doesn't have a legislative basis though, and it's certainly not something that I'd be relying on. As for drivers' urgency or lack of, that has been the same since time immemorial with certain drivers.

I know it has no legistlative basis but it is the industry standard minimum connection time. Which would be fine, it it's not for slow drivers at Witney depot. Given Stagecoach know that Witney depot drivers are slow, why aren't they either sped up (if they make the bus late by not being at the stop on time without good reason such as legal break, every minute is deducted from pay) or move the recovery time from Witney Square to the depot. Constantly late buses do nothing to encourage people onto buses.

I guess the point I was making was that it isn't like Somerset and North Somerset; Gloucestershire CC don't arbitrarily stop services at the county boundary. In fairness to GCC, there are plenty of examples where they do go across the border and you see that with Stagecoach's services to Dursley etc.

Yes some of them go across the border, generally they don't provide a meaningful service though and doesn't really make it an use for the majority and certainly not good enough for people, bar the local ENCTS crowd, to make use of it. I use the examples of links from FoD to Monmouth and Ross (33 excepted) as an example. Or you have the 69 which goes to the bustling metropolis that is, Old Sodbury. Links onto the 620 granted but if the 620 didn't exist or was won by another firm, the 69 would likely be terminated at Tetbury. Even with the through 'connection' though, the timings are poor with the route being 3 hourly. Hardly something commuters or normal leisure passengers can plan around, just there for ENCTS locals really.

I'm really not wishing to be contentious, but I can't see too many areas where there's an obvious corridor to improve. For instance, FoD into Monmouth... lovely place as Monmouth, the reality is that places like Coleford and Cinderford will look to Gloucester to travel. That was what Stagecoach did with the 30/31.

I don't think it's all Gloucestershire to blame, I think some of it is other councils not wanting to fund buses into Gloucestershire as well but also Gloucestershire not trying to get the buses into their area. They are not the only ones to blame but not blameless too. I agree with your previous comments too that they aren't the worst council for it.
FoD to Monmouth I think does have decent demand, it's just not possible to use buses to get there. Cirencester to Swindon, only an hourly bus, that's quite poor. Leechlade on Thames to Faringdon (divert the 77. 77 links to Highworth which has nothing but a CoOp and links to Swindon. Farrington has Tesco, Aldi, Waitrose, Home Bargains. Plus links to Didcot, Swindon and Oxford.
Moreton in Marsh to Chipping Norton has no buses. Chipping Campden has pretty poor links to anywhere, best offering is 3 buses per day taking 2 hours to Cheltenham, they could work with Creswell bus and Worcestershire council to extend the R4 which would give 5 buses per day to Evesham.
Worcester 332 and 363 provide 6 buses per day from Worcester to Ryall, a 10 minute extension would put them in Tewkesbury and provide interurban links.

Also, it's worth noting that the Gloucestershire Council Bus Service Improvement Plan says about improving cross border services (albeit they have found other areas for growth than what I have found)
https://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/media/g0okpxci/gcc-bsip-final-2910-accessible.pdf (Page 43)

Accessibility across the county boundaries is also a challenge. There are locations where bus demand could be increased if congestion is reduced on the road network, for example, Cheltenham-Evesham, Wootton-Kingswood-South Gloucestershire, Dursley-South Gloucestershire, Lydney-Chepstow and Bristol, Cirencester – Oxfordshire.

It's built around Wyedean school so even without the interworking, you'd still have the same challenge regarding M-F vs Saturday. Given the amount of work they have in Chepstow, I was surprised that they didn't base some vehicles local and yes, the interworking is a bit special.

Not really, while yes the school plays a part, that would only affect one trip, that one school bus does not mean that Saturdays have to start 2h 10 later and finish 1h 10 earlier. It's a Newport Bus led thing on Saturdays as the same happens with the Monmouth contracts and they blamed Newport Bus not having enough drivers and that is why it's all a bit of a mess. I don't know about now but I know Newport bus did have agency drivers in to do the work. I see no reason why Gloucestershire just sat down and accepted the Newport Bus deal when the timetable is quite clearly detrimental for passengers on both the 72 and C4.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Apologies for the late response but been away

I know it has no legistlative basis but it is the industry standard minimum connection time. Which would be fine, it it's not for slow drivers at Witney depot. Given Stagecoach know that Witney depot drivers are slow, why aren't they either sped up (if they make the bus late by not being at the stop on time without good reason such as legal break, every minute is deducted from pay) or move the recovery time from Witney Square to the depot. Constantly late buses do nothing to encourage people onto buses.

Are the buses constantly late? This does sound like one or two experiences that you're extrapolating. As for docking drivers' pay for being late, I'd love to see you try and implement that.

Yes some of them go across the border, generally they don't provide a meaningful service though and doesn't really make it an use for the majority and certainly not good enough for people, bar the local ENCTS crowd, to make use of it. I use the examples of links from FoD to Monmouth and Ross (33 excepted) as an example. Or you have the 69 which goes to the bustling metropolis that is, Old Sodbury. Links onto the 620 granted but if the 620 didn't exist or was won by another firm, the 69 would likely be terminated at Tetbury. Even with the through 'connection' though, the timings are poor with the route being 3 hourly. Hardly something commuters or normal leisure passengers can plan around, just there for ENCTS locals really.

Stagecoach's 69 and 620 is set up to be connecting operation, and essentially to run through from Tetbury to Old Sodbury, then to Yate and then Bath. Stagecoach have had it for several years. Before that, it was Cotswold Green, and before that, it was again Stagecoach. Given that the operator always changes at the same time (whilst 69 being Glos CC and 620 being Sth Glos C subsidies), it is clearly coordinated as a single piece of work. That the number changes at Old Sodbury is an anachronism. Certainly, Glos CC wouldn't terminate it in Tetbury and leave Didmarton, Willesley and Westonbirt unserved.

As for the Forest of Dean to Monmouth services, I'm not really convinced that there is some untapped potential. It has the 35 from Coleford that represents the last vestige of the old Lydney to Monmouth service (as the 23 covers that now and probably provides a more useful link for Gloucester). Looking at old timetables, not certain that there's ever been a service to Monmouth from Cinderford or the eastern part of the Forest. If Glos CC has money to throw about, restoring the half hourly service from Cinderford to Gloucester would be a better use of the cash. On the subject of the 35, I do find it perverse that the morning run towards Monmouth only goes into the town on school hols as it's built around getting the bus back to Five Acres School yet there is a workers bus in the evening.

Also, whilst Monmouth is a lovely place to visit (it's got a Waitrose you know ), it really is a small town with limited potential. Crikey, it can't even justify a decent service to Usk and Newport (but that's another story).

I don't think it's all Gloucestershire to blame, I think some of it is other councils not wanting to fund buses into Gloucestershire as well but also Gloucestershire not trying to get the buses into their area. They are not the only ones to blame but not blameless too. I agree with your previous comments too that they aren't the worst council for it.
FoD to Monmouth I think does have decent demand, it's just not possible to use buses to get there. Cirencester to Swindon, only an hourly bus, that's quite poor. Leechlade on Thames to Faringdon (divert the 77. 77 links to Highworth which has nothing but a CoOp and links to Swindon. Farrington has Tesco, Aldi, Waitrose, Home Bargains. Plus links to Didcot, Swindon and Oxford.
Moreton in Marsh to Chipping Norton has no buses. Chipping Campden has pretty poor links to anywhere, best offering is 3 buses per day taking 2 hours to Cheltenham, they could work with Creswell bus and Worcestershire council to extend the R4 which would give 5 buses per day to Evesham.
Worcester 332 and 363 provide 6 buses per day from Worcester to Ryall, a 10 minute extension would put them in Tewkesbury and provide interurban links.

Also, it's worth noting that the Gloucestershire Council Bus Service Improvement Plan says about improving cross border services (albeit they have found other areas for growth than what I have found)
https://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/media/g0okpxci/gcc-bsip-final-2910-accessible.pdf (Page 43)

I think you're being quite unkind on Gloucestershire CC and Stagecoach.

Remember that they did have a half hourly service from Cirencester to Swindon with the hourly 51 being joined by the 53 via Cricklade. Perhaps running via Cricklade meant it was unattractive for the main Ciren to Swindon but it disappeared a few years ago.

As regards the 77, that is another example of where Gloucestershire CC extended the 77 to Highworth. There is a long established service (it was the Thamesdown/Stagecoach 75/77 from Swindon to Lechlade to Cirencester) where the 64 Carterton to Swindon ran via Lechlade. That went when Oxfordshire CC pulled all their tendered services so it was left to GCC to extend the 77 though they do get a contribution from Swindon Borough and Oxfordshire. Also, not sure why you'd want to extend to Faringdon - aside from a mid sized Tesco and a Waitrose with a Costa next door, it's barely any better than Lechlade.

Chipping Campden is a funny one in that it used to have an hourly service but it's now two hourly to Stratford (7 buses/day) and whilst they run through to Moreton, they're supported by Warwickshire and doesn't seem GCC have any input. I think it dropped a few years ago when Johnsons had it and the times are much the same with Stagecoach.

As for Moreton in Marsh to Chipping Norton... I can never remember a service there (and I lived just up from Moreton for a while near Shipston). Just isn't a place to travel to.

The BSIP does indeed highlight a number of cross-border services that they'd like to expand, should they get the funds.

Not really, while yes the school plays a part, that would only affect one trip, that one school bus does not mean that Saturdays have to start 2h 10 later and finish 1h 10 earlier. It's a Newport Bus led thing on Saturdays as the same happens with the Monmouth contracts and they blamed Newport Bus not having enough drivers and that is why it's all a bit of a mess. I don't know about now but I know Newport bus did have agency drivers in to do the work. I see no reason why Gloucestershire just sat down and accepted the Newport Bus deal when the timetable is quite clearly detrimental for passengers on both the 72 and C4.

The early 72 doesn't run on a Saturday but it does work the C4 for via the school afterwards. First bus is 0902 on Saturday - guess that the demand isn't there on a Saturday for an earlier run.

The 0902/1102/1302 all run the same times irrespective of the day.

However, the 1502 on a Saturday can't run that time on a Mon-Fri as that vehicle has to operate the C4 at 1510 via Wyedean School. Hence it works later at 1612. Now theoretically, the 1702 (Saturday) could run on Mon to Fri but then you'd have a gap of >3 hours and then two in 50 mins.Any which way you want to look at it, it's that the 72 is fitted around the C4 schools contract.

Now you say that Gloucestershire CC shouldn't have had to settle for something "substandard", and insist on a clockface timetable. However, more likely is that they looked at the cost of a dedicated vehicle on the 72 and the extra costs that had, vs the current solution. Remember that they had to go out and procure this after Stagecoach pulled out so had limited businesses to approach AND limited funds to spend AT THAT TIME.

 

[markymark2000]

Are the buses constantly late? This does sound like one or two experiences that you're extrapolating. As for docking drivers' pay for being late, I'd love to see you try and implement that.

Perhaps my experiences and any late running would generally be caught up between Witney and Oxford as there is a bit of padding there so it doesn't look as bad.

Given that the operator always changes at the same time (whilst 69 being Glos CC and 620 being Sth Glos C subsidies), it is clearly coordinated as a single piece of work. That the number changes at Old Sodbury is an anachronism. Certainly, Glos CC wouldn't terminate it in Tetbury and leave Didmarton, Willesley and Westonbirt unserved.

I've seen many a longstanding link withdrawn though simply because one council isn't willing to work with another one or the funding priorities have changed, if the 620 and 69 are properly coordinated (I don't know if they go out in a combined tender perhaps), it could change very quickly depending on either party.

With respect to Didmarton, Willesley and Westonbirt, they aren't really large enough villages I would say for a bus to extend to serve them and the fact they are served seems to be merely because the bus goes through to get to somewhere else (in this case the bus runs through to connect with the 620) rather than them being served due to any substantial demand.

On the subject of the 35, I do find it perverse that the morning run towards Monmouth only goes into the town on school hols as it's built around getting the bus back to Five Acres School yet there is a workers bus in the evening.

The 35 is a mess because of those school journeys. Even as someone who says schools and service should be integrated, the 35 is an example of where it should be kept separate. The School Holiday timetable is significantly better and I think if that was adopted on school days as well, it would make a big difference for people. If the dead run to/from the 36 was added as a short run on the 35 as well, that would improve the timetable between Coleford and Monmouth. If the 35 was improved into Monmouth, it could replace the school bus currently ran by Willets.

I think you're being quite unkind on Gloucestershire CC and Stagecoach.

I wouldn't say so, I am agreeing that they aren't the worst and that they aren't fully to blame. You have to acknowledge though that there is plenty of room for improvements.

Remember that they did have a half hourly service from Cirencester to Swindon with the hourly 51 being joined by the 53 via Cricklade. Perhaps running via Cricklade meant it was unattractive for the main Ciren to Swindon but it disappeared a few years ago.

With the amount of buses which Swindon depot run empty between Swindon (with many journeys starting at the Bus Station as well I should add) and Cirencester, especially on college days, there is ample opportunity for more journeys.

As regards the 77, that is another example of where Gloucestershire CC extended the 77 to Highworth. There is a long established service (it was the Thamesdown/Stagecoach 75/77 from Swindon to Lechlade to Cirencester) where the 64 Carterton to Swindon ran via Lechlade. That went when Oxfordshire CC pulled all their tendered services so it was left to GCC to extend the 77 though they do get a contribution from Swindon Borough and Oxfordshire. Also, not sure why you'd want to extend to Faringdon - aside from a mid sized Tesco and a Waitrose with a Costa next door, it's barely any better than Lechlade.

Faringdon has those benefits that you mention (Tesco, Waitrose, Home Bargains are all quite good attractors for shoppers). There are also many more onward links versus Highworth.
With the new Oxfordshire Witney-Swindon service starting soon, I presume this will ruin via Lechlade, if this is the case, could a diversion made to the 77 since the Lechlade to Swindon link is then sorted by the new Oxfordshire route.

As for Moreton in Marsh to Chipping Norton... I can never remember a service there (and I lived just up from Moreton for a while near Shipston). Just isn't a place to travel to.

Doesn't mean one shouldn't exist. Standalone I don't think it would work but as an extension to the S3 so that the route then has a longer distance purpose as well as the shorter links. There are people commuting between the areas and if a core bus was provided I think that there would perhaps be some school traffic too (Chipping Norton School is closer than Chipping Camden school but cross border school buses tend to only be provided if it's sorted by parents or by the school, if a bus was provided, it would likely make it easier for some students to attend the school rather than being forced into Chipping Camden. For anyone heading westwards on the train, Moreton in Marsh Station would be the preferred station over Kingham for some people in Chipping Norton too given Moreton is accessible, Kingham and Shipston aren't. The closest train stations to Chipping Norton with a proper bus link are probably Banbury and Oxford Parkway. Finestock has the X9 but the bus/train interchange isn't the best.

However, the 1502 on a Saturday can't run that time on a Mon-Fri as that vehicle has to operate the C4 at 1510 via Wyedean School. Hence it works later at 1612. Now theoretically, the 1702 (Saturday) could run on Mon to Fri but then you'd have a gap of >3 hours and then two in 50 mins.Any which way you want to look at it, it's that the 72 is fitted around the C4 schools contract.

You could easily have the Mon-Fri timetable on Saturdays. 17:02 and 18:12 on Saturdays, it's just Newport Bus want to get the bus back quicker and the same as they have done in Chepstow, made the timetable so that it is easier for them operationally rather than easier for passengers. With the mass interworking, I do think that more could be done.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Finestock has the X9 but the bus/train interchange isn't the best.

The almost complete lack of trains (one up am, one down pm, none at weekends) being a slight contributory factor

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've seen many a longstanding link withdrawn though simply because one council isn't willing to work with another one or the funding priorities have changed, if the 620 and 69 are properly coordinated (I don't know if they go out in a combined tender perhaps), it could change very quickly depending on either party.

With respect to Didmarton, Willesley and Westonbirt, they aren't really large enough villages I would say for a bus to extend to serve them and the fact they are served seems to be merely because the bus goes through to get to somewhere else (in this case the bus runs through to connect with the 620) rather than them being served due to any substantial demand.

You're talking hypothetiicals and the actual facts. If and when any link is severed, then you'll have a point but this is a link that actually exists now. Whilst Didmarton and Willesley aren't the biggest villages, Gloucestershire CC clearly believes they need a service.

I wouldn't say so, I am agreeing that they aren't the worst and that they aren't fully to blame. You have to acknowledge though that there is plenty of room for improvements.

You can always say that things could be better in any context. They subsidise the cross border Stagecoach service to Thornbury. They'd like it to be hourly but they have to sensible with their funds esp as they didn't get all their BSIP wishes met.

With the amount of buses which Swindon depot run empty between Swindon (with many journeys starting at the Bus Station as well I should add) and Cirencester, especially on college days, there is ample opportunity for more journeys.

How many journeys? And why do they run out of service? How much of this has to do with Cirencester College and so is tied to term times?

Faringdon has those benefits that you mention (Tesco, Waitrose, Home Bargains are all quite good attractors for shoppers). There are also many more onward links versus Highworth.
With the new Oxfordshire Witney-Swindon service starting soon, I presume this will ruin via Lechlade, if this is the case, could a diversion made to the 77 since the Lechlade to Swindon link is then sorted by the new Oxfordshire route.

Really? A small Home Bargains is not a "good attractor" of passengers. Have you seen how many get off/on there on the S6 and 67?

The new route could go via Faringdon (as per the old 468 pre-dereg) but it will probably go via Lechlade and restore that link.

Doesn't mean one shouldn't exist. Standalone I don't think it would work but as an extension to the S3 so that the route then has a longer distance purpose as well as the shorter links. There are people commuting between the areas and if a core bus was provided I think that there would perhaps be some school traffic too (Chipping Norton School is closer than Chipping Camden school but cross border school buses tend to only be provided if it's sorted by parents or by the school, if a bus was provided, it would likely make it easier for some students to attend the school rather than being forced into Chipping Camden. For anyone heading westwards on the train, Moreton in Marsh Station would be the preferred station over Kingham for some people in Chipping Norton too given Moreton is accessible, Kingham and Shipston aren't. The closest train stations to Chipping Norton with a proper bus link are probably Banbury and Oxford Parkway. Finestock has the X9 but the bus/train interchange isn't the best.

We can arbitrarily look at any map and plot where a service might run. However, you're talking about a route where a bus hasn't run in 50 years. Instead, you're now suggesting that an e400 should be trundling along there, probably every hour. I've lived near Shipston, and can tell you that people in Chipping Norton and its villages are more likely to a) use Kingham or b) use Oxford or c) more likely use their Range Rover. In fact, look at how many people used the X8?

This is really well-heeled territory (note: I'm not well heeled ) and travelling patterns are well established.

You could easily have the Mon-Fri timetable on Saturdays. 17:02 and 18:12 on Saturdays, it's just Newport Bus want to get the bus back quicker and the same as they have done in Chepstow, made the timetable so that it is easier for them operationally rather than easier for passengers. With the mass interworking, I do think that more could be done.

So your big issue is that the M-F timetable isn't repeated on a Saturday (for consistency?), and that you blame Newport Bus for this?

The reality is that GCC had to pay for a cross border route after the 24 was withdrawn by Stagecoach, and they had a greater challenge on funds as a result. By adopting a regular headway on a Saturday, they save 3 hours pay and that's reflected in the tender price. Also, it means they avoid a three hour gap in the afternoon and have a regular two hourly frequency on a Saturday, rather than the M-F issue which is built around schools.

You are smart enough to know this but I think your views on Newport Bus are taking precedence.

 

[markymark2000]

You're talking hypothetiicals and the actual facts. If and when any link is severed, then you'll have a point but this is a link that actually exists now. Whilst Didmarton and Willesley aren't the biggest villages, Gloucestershire CC clearly believes they need a service.

As I say, I don't know if the tenders go out together and so perhaps someone else could comment on that but I'd certainly say that buses to these villages are just there because the bus runs through to get to somewhere else, not served because there is any meaningful demand there.

How many journeys? And why do they run out of service? How much of this has to do with Cirencester College and so is tied to term times?

A good number link up to the college times and so college days you could certainly warrant many additional trips. It's a bit difficult to work out the current dead mileage trips as Stagecoach Open Data is a mess for the West area with most buses not tracking as the college routes

50 09:16 from Apney runs back to Swindon after arriving at Cirencester (with subsequent trips ran by a bus which comes off the 77)
C1 afternoon trip from Swindon to Cirencester
C51/C52 both run back to Cheltenham in the morning and to Cirencester in the afternoon
C2/C3/C4/C6/C8/C9/C53/C54 have buses which run from Cirencester to Swindon in the morning, from Swindon to Cirencester in the evening.
C62 in the morning runs on to do a round trip on the 50 (08:54 and 09:16 trips) then runs dead to Swindon. Afternoon runs to Cirencester for the return trip.
All of this, plus the normal dead mileage trips for the 51.

College Holidays you have at least the 76/78 which leaves 10:30 gets into Swindon around 11am, leaves around 12pm to get back to Cirencester for 12:40. There could be more though for the 50 service but I can't see full details for that till next week. You have the dead mileage trips for the normal 51 as well.

Weekends it is just covering dead mileage on the 51 as other routes don't run/timetables are very different.
Saturdays you have 2 trips to Cirencester in the morning and 1 trip back
Sundays you have 1 trip each way


Weekdays have the biggest potential really and with the driver swaps and some of the additional trips running. Plus the existing 51X trips, it would be a marginal cost to run half hourly through the day on college days. College holidays would depend on driver changeovers and dead mileage trips for the 50 however the higher frequency on college days could stimulate growth on the route which in turn gives more passengers in the holidays. Combine that with the fact that the buses have paid for themselves with the college contract and so some of the half hourly service could still remain in place because it's got a lower operating cost compared to without the college contract. This is kind of a common thing in the industry to cross subsidise Mon-Fri School Holiday timetables using the school day profit.

We can arbitrarily look at any map and plot where a service might run. However, you're talking about a route where a bus hasn't run in 50 years. Instead, you're now suggesting that an e400 should be trundling along there, probably every hour. I've lived near Shipston, and can tell you that people in Chipping Norton and its villages are more likely to a) use Kingham or b) use Oxford or c) more likely use their Range Rover. In fact, look at how many people used the X8?

The suggestion of the S3 was because of the onward links offered, not the bus type nor the frequency. If would cost the same for the S3 to extend hourly as it would 2 hourly. For that kind of link, a shuttle service likely isn't going to do great things and it would be better connected onto another route. It's clearly going to be something we differ on and we could go back and forth on this forever.

So your big issue is that the M-F timetable isn't repeated on a Saturday (for consistency?), and that you blame Newport Bus for this?

The reality is that GCC had to pay for a cross border route after the 24 was withdrawn by Stagecoach, and they had a greater challenge on funds as a result. By adopting a regular headway on a Saturday, they save 3 hours pay and that's reflected in the tender price. Also, it means they avoid a three hour gap in the afternoon and have a regular two hourly frequency on a Saturday, rather than the M-F issue which is built around schools.

You are smart enough to know this but I think your views on Newport Bus are taking precedence.

Monmouthshire Council has confirmed to me in emails that the reason that Chepstow C1/2/3 tendered timetable are the way they are on Saturdays is because of Newport bus reducing services (lower frequency and earlier finishes) because of their lack of drivers and the council actually wanted it to be the same each day. Given the way that the 72/C4 are interworked into the rest of the services, it would seem right that actually this is why the 72/C4 timetable is the way it is on Saturdays. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, based off the information that I have, I strongly believe that the timetables are done for Newport Bus operational convenience rather than what is best for passengers or what the council actually wanted in the first place. Consideration should have been put into giving someone else the tender.

If I didn't have the intel from Monmouthshire Council, I think I would say it's just a very strangely written timetable but with the information I have, that's why I am more against the current timetable.

As I am sure the forum will understand, I shall NOT be attaching photos of my private emails.

 

[lightning76]

I have followed this thread with interest as I used to work for Stagecoach West. I cannot comment on FoD or Monmouth matters as I am not well acquainted with those areas, but I do know the Swindon and Cirencester area very well.

There is little demand for additional services between Swindon and Cirencester. It has been tried twice in recent years, as 51/53, then 51/51A. Also, evening services have been attempted, on the 53 between Swindon and Ciren, and on the 51 between Ciren and Cheltenham.

I think some posters on this thread overestimate the demand for new or varied services. Folks in this area are used to the services that exist. When we (I refer to Stagecoach West) made changes, they were received with a lack of enthusiasm locally.

I can assure readers of this thread that senior management had personal enthusiasm for improving services in the area. Unfortunately the increased costs were not correspondingly met by increased revenue. No doubt any efforts led by local authorities in the area will suffer the same fate.

On the subject of dead running between Swindon and Cirencester. At the time I last worked for the company, there were various routes CDO (College days only) to Ciren in the morning, which returned empty to depot or bus station. And vice versa in the afternoon. There were also a couple of lunchtime services, which may have run empty in one direction or another, in accordance with scheduling requirements. At the time, the 77/Ciren group of routes operated independently. Things may have changed since. But the dead running will be largely if not entirely related to school or college requirements, and therefore quite unrelated and unsuitable for integration into a regular service.

 

[Dai Corner]

As I say, I don't know if the tenders go out together and so perhaps someone else could comment on that but I'd certainly say that buses to these villages are just there because the bus runs through to get to somewhere else, not served because there is any meaningful demand there.


A good number link up to the college times and so college days you could certainly warrant many additional trips. It's a bit difficult to work out the current dead mileage trips as Stagecoach Open Data is a mess for the West area with most buses not tracking as the college routes

50 09:16 from Apney runs back to Swindon after arriving at Cirencester (with subsequent trips ran by a bus which comes off the 77)
C1 afternoon trip from Swindon to Cirencester
C51/C52 both run back to Cheltenham in the morning and to Cirencester in the afternoon
C2/C3/C4/C6/C8/C9/C53/C54 have buses which run from Cirencester to Swindon in the morning, from Swindon to Cirencester in the evening.
C62 in the morning runs on to do a round trip on the 50 (08:54 and 09:16 trips) then runs dead to Swindon. Afternoon runs to Cirencester for the return trip.
All of this, plus the normal dead mileage trips for the 51.

College Holidays you have at least the 76/78 which leaves 10:30 gets into Swindon around 11am, leaves around 12pm to get back to Cirencester for 12:40. There could be more though for the 50 service but I can't see full details for that till next week. You have the dead mileage trips for the normal 51 as well.

Weekends it is just covering dead mileage on the 51 as other routes don't run/timetables are very different.
Saturdays you have 2 trips to Cirencester in the morning and 1 trip back
Sundays you have 1 trip each way


Weekdays have the biggest potential really and with the driver swaps and some of the additional trips running. Plus the existing 51X trips, it would be a marginal cost to run half hourly through the day on college days. College holidays would depend on driver changeovers and dead mileage trips for the 50 however the higher frequency on college days could stimulate growth on the route which in turn gives more passengers in the holidays. Combine that with the fact that the buses have paid for themselves with the college contract and so some of the half hourly service could still remain in place because it's got a lower operating cost compared to without the college contract. This is kind of a common thing in the industry to cross subsidise Mon-Fri School Holiday timetables using the school day profit.


The suggestion of the S3 was because of the onward links offered, not the bus type nor the frequency. If would cost the same for the S3 to extend hourly as it would 2 hourly. For that kind of link, a shuttle service likely isn't going to do great things and it would be better connected onto another route. It's clearly going to be something we differ on and we could go back and forth on this forever.


Monmouthshire Council has confirmed to me in emails that the reason that Chepstow C1/2/3 tendered timetable are the way they are on Saturdays is because of Newport bus reducing services (lower frequency and earlier finishes) because of their lack of drivers and the council actually wanted it to be the same each day. Given the way that the 72/C4 are interworked into the rest of the services, it would seem right that actually this is why the 72/C4 timetable is the way it is on Saturdays. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, based off the information that I have, I strongly believe that the timetables are done for Newport Bus operational convenience rather than what is best for passengers or what the council actually wanted in the first place. Consideration should have been put into giving someone else the tender.

If I didn't have the intel from Monmouthshire Council, I think I would say it's just a very strangely written timetable but with the information I have, that's why I am more against the current timetable.

As I am sure the forum will understand, I shall NOT be attaching photos of my private emails.

I expect Newport Transport would do whatever Monmouthshire Council wanted if they made it worth their while.

 

[Callum15632]

Does anyone know what 36097 MX59 JBE (North Bristol) is actually tracking as or is it actually 36097 as it doesn't comply with Bristol's CAZ unless it has been upgraded? It has also been on routes that need Compliant Vehicles such as the 13 Shirehampton to City Centre, 505 Long Ashton Park And Ride to Southmead etc.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As I say, I don't know if the tenders go out together and so perhaps someone else could comment on that but I'd certainly say that buses to these villages are just there because the bus runs through to get to somewhere else, not served because there is any meaningful demand there.

The routes are seemingly tendered together as they changed from Stagecoach to Cotswold Green, and then back again. Those villages may not have meaningful demand (i.e. sustainable) but then again, few villages do.

Weekdays have the biggest potential really and with the driver swaps and some of the additional trips running.

As @lightning76 has mentioned, they have tried enhancements on at least two occasions, and in much more detail as to the issues of college days only.

The suggestion of the S3 was because of the onward links offered, not the bus type nor the frequency. If would cost the same for the S3 to extend hourly as it would 2 hourly. For that kind of link, a shuttle service likely isn't going to do great things and it would be better connected onto another route. It's clearly going to be something we differ on and we could go back and forth on this forever.

Fairly certain that double the mileage and double the drivers' hours means it won't cost the same. S3 is e400 operated but either way, it's not link that's really missing.

If I didn't have the intel from Monmouthshire Council, I think I would say it's just a very strangely written timetable but with the information I have, that's why I am more against the current timetable.

As I am sure the forum will understand, I shall NOT be attaching photos of my private emails.

I'm sure that is understood.

However, I think you're conflating two different issues. The C1-C3 are hourly M-F and two hourly on a Saturday (with the same start finish times on the C2/C3). Having fewer Saturday duties would certainly help Newport Bus.

That's a different issue than the C4/72 and it's not surprising that you'd have a different M-F vs a Saturday. I'm not certain that there were many options for Monmouthshire or Gloucestershire Council but really, we are drifting away from Stagecoach West.

 

[markymark2000]

There is little demand for additional services between Swindon and Cirencester. It has been tried twice in recent years, as 51/53, then 51/51A. Also, evening services have been attempted, on the 53 between Swindon and Ciren, and on the 51 between Ciren and Cheltenham.

To be fair, I've not said about evening buses but more frequent services on the 51 would cost not a lot for the benefits that it would bring.

I think some posters on this thread overestimate the demand for new or varied services. Folks in this area are used to the services that exist. When we (I refer to Stagecoach West) made changes, they were received with a lack of enthusiasm locally.

That is very interesting. When were the services vastly improved as I have not seen

I can assure readers of this thread that senior management had personal enthusiasm for improving services in the area. Unfortunately the increased costs were not correspondingly met by increased revenue. No doubt any efforts led by local authorities in the area will suffer the same fate.

Increased costs or Stagecoach new owners wanting higher profits?

But the dead running will be largely if not entirely related to school or college requirements, and therefore quite unrelated and unsuitable for integration into a regular service.

Quite wrong, College Day Only dead mileage can very easily be mixed into regular services like the 51 where it is to vastly increase the frequency. It wouldn't make sense to convert the C7 Highworth dead mileage into extra trips on the 7 though as this likely would cause confusion and make the timetable overly complex.

As @lightning76 has mentioned, they have tried enhancements on at least two occasions, and in much more detail as to the issues of college days only.

I'm talking different enhancements to what Lightning is suggesting. Nowhere have I said about the evening services, I have said a frequency enhancement as a way of reducing dead mileage where the dead mileage directly duplicates an existing service and has the potential to make improvements to a corridor at basically no cost.

Fairly certain that double the mileage and double the drivers' hours means it won't cost the same. S3 is e400 operated but either way, it's not link that's really missing.

Because of the journey time, the drivers hours wouldn't be helped by it being a 2 hourly extension. IF linked to the S3, a 2 hourly frequency would mean a bus and driver sitting around for an hour. The cost of mileage is minimal once you have paid for the driver.

we are drifting away from Stagecoach West.

To be fair, most of this discussion should be split into a Gloucestershire BSIP discussion as that is where it stemmed from.

 

[lightning76]

To be fair, I've not said about evening buses but more frequent services on the 51 would cost not a lot for the benefits that it would bring.


That is very interesting. When were the services vastly improved as I have not seen


Increased costs or Stagecoach new owners wanting higher profits?


Quite wrong, College Day Only dead mileage can very easily be mixed into regular services like the 51 where it is to vastly increase the frequency. It wouldn't make sense to convert the C7 Highworth dead mileage into extra trips on the 7 though as this likely would cause confusion and make the timetable overly complex.


I'm talking different enhancements to what Lightning is suggesting. Nowhere have I said about the evening services, I have said a frequency enhancement as a way of reducing dead mileage where the dead mileage directly duplicates an existing service and has the potential to make improvements to a corridor at basically no cost.

CDO dead mileage can of course be used to improve a service. You are right that it can be easily done. And there are routes where the times of schools and colleges are convenient for this. But not the 51, there's no point. The buses get to the college about 0845, so too late to go anywhere else for working people, and too early for concessionary pass holders. There is, or was, already an extra bus Ciren to Swindon at about 0900, after it had been to Kingshill school. Nobody got on it until it got to Cricklade at 0930.

In answer to your question, the service enhancements were tried in I think 2014 and 2017. In 2014 the route also got brand new E400 buses. So some effort has been made. This was before the current ownership of course.

The best thing for the 51, from the passenger's perspective, would just be to double it to x30 mins. But that would take the PVR from 4 to 8. Drivers duties, from about 7ish to 13ish. It would be some leap of faith. The same would apply to many other routes or areas being discussed.

 

[Citistar]

Might be worth putting on a concession friendly 0930 Ciren - Swindon (perhaps a 51X) to take some of the load off the 0948 trip (0905 ex Chelt), even if it is CDO. To be honest, the bigger gaps are in the Cheltenham end of the service where an 0930 Ciren - Chelt journey would be a useful addition to the timetable.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you to @markymark2000 and @lightning76. In respect of the Ciren to Swindon route, I was struggling to recall when the 51 was doubled but 2014 sounds like it. I definitely remember the 53 appearing and then disappearing. Whilst the idea of using Ciren College vehicles to up the frequency, there's definite reasons why it isn't done. What happens in the 13 weeks of the year when you don't have those workings? Or Saturdays? And you're wanting to get drivers back so they're doing other stuff? Perhaps the view is that it's a lot of hassle for relatively little benefit on a corridor that has already been tried unsuccessfully twice.

That's not to say that Stagecoach West hasn't tried to innovate in other areas and been moderately successful, with some external funding it should be said but also supported by Stagecoach. viz:

49 Swindon to Devizes - was two hourly but supported by Wiltshire Council funding, went to hourly and was extended to Trowbridge
55 Swindon to Chippenham - was half hourly to W Bassett then hourly to Chippenham - now every 20 mins (helped by Kickstart funding)
66 Swindon to Oxford - was hourly with single decks went to every 30 mins (via a mix of funding sources). Stagecoach then introduced deckers and increased it to every 20 mins
51 Swindon to Cheltenham - was hourly to Cirencester with two hourly extension to Cheltenham with Stagecoach making it every 60 mins throughout. and later introducing deckers
31 Gloucester to Cinderford and Coleford - was hourly but increased by Stagecoach to half hourly with service 30 introduced (think it lasted for about 10 years before it's now gone back to hourly sadly)
41 Cheltenham to Tewkesbury - think this was a Kickstart that went from every 30 to every 20 mins; now back to every 30 but the 42/43 now also run
71 Gloucester to Tewkesbury - this was a sort of hourly affair from Swanbrook that Stagecoach took on hourly and is now half hourly; might be some s106 funding involved at some point

Of course, they also tried stuff like the Belles Express that really had no hope, or the X7 whose time had passed. So why did some initiatives work whilst others haven't?

Well, there is the issue of suppressed demand, so upping the Cheltenham to Ciren service was perhaps an example of that. ENCTS also provided an uplift in patronage and so needing deckers. There's also been some pump priming money from local authorities, s106 or Kickstart, but not exclusively. However, on routes like the 55 and 66 (now S6), they have also benefitted from a lot of new housing developments. Ciren has some new housing but the increase in the actual number of inhabitants has been greater in Faringdon since 2001, and that's ignoring places like Southmoor and Shrivenham/Watchfield where there's a load more new housing. Same goes for Tewkesbury, W Bassett, and even Calne. There's always the issue that what works in one instance simply doesn't work elsewhere because of these local variations.

The impact on Stagecoach's business decisions from DWS ownership is really yet to be seen. There's definitely more appetite for tendered work across the country, though there's also a challenge on driver availability. Yes, there's been some closing of outstations and depots but many of the changes are really reflective of post Covid passenger number falls and funding issues more than anything else. The cuts in the Forest of Dean are quite saddening but in truth, Stagecoach has recast the network a few times since they took Dukes over.

ps the S3 mileage uplift will still cost about £25k p.a. and I just don't see the market - sorry.

 

[markymark2000]

The best thing for the 51, from the passenger's perspective, would just be to double it to x30 mins. But that would take the PVR from 4 to 8. Drivers duties, from about 7ish to 13ish. It would be some leap of faith. The same would apply to many other routes or areas being discussed.

I've kind of already said that but the best way to keep the PVR and driver duties low is to merge it into existing work so you'd have some 'College Holidays' journeys perhaps around 8-9am and 4-5pm but otherwise college days, use the buses between college journeys to provide extra trips on the 51/51X. College Holidays use the college buses which have had their costs paid for by the college contracts (Depreciation and contribution to the depot costs), the cost to these trips then on College Holidays is then much lower so needs less passengers to make it viable.

While the route PVR then increases, the actual depot PVR doesn't increase for college days so the costs of the enhancement are nowhere near as high.

Might be worth putting on a concession friendly 0930 Ciren - Swindon (perhaps a 51X) to take some of the load off the 0948 trip (0905 ex Chelt), even if it is CDO. To be honest, the bigger gaps are in the Cheltenham end of the service where an 0930 Ciren - Chelt journey would be a useful addition to the timetable.

09:30 could be done off a Ciren using a college bus or you have a bus at 09:48 which runs off the 50 and goes back to Swindon dead which could run a 51X journey to get pax from Ciren down to Swindon and the core 51 journey should then be much quieter. That then helps passengers coming from Cheltenham as they can connect onto the faster service making their overall journey quicker as well as benefitting the Ciren-Swindon section.

What happens in the 13 weeks of the year when you don't have those workings? Or Saturdays? And you're wanting to get drivers back so they're doing other stuff? Perhaps the view is that it's a lot of hassle for relatively little benefit on a corridor that has already been tried unsuccessfully twice.

I've literally already given you the answer for College holidays and it's the exact same as what almost every other bus company does Mon-Fri Holidays, run the timetable by cross subsidising from the contracted school/college runs. Something that may be worth looking at is Faresaver. On their 33/33X and X34, Mon-Fri runs double the frequency of Saturdays and passengers seem to be ok with that and so Saturdays needn't be a problem (I stand by the fact that, some of the dead runs could/should be converted into 51X runs on Saturdays.)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've literally already given you the answer for College holidays and it's the exact same as what almost every other bus company does Mon-Fri Holidays, run the timetable by cross subsidising from the contracted school/college runs. Something that may be worth looking at is Faresaver. On their 33/33X and X34, Mon-Fri runs double the frequency of Saturdays and passengers seem to be ok with that and so Saturdays needn't be a problem (I stand by the fact that, some of the dead runs could/should be converted into 51X runs on Saturdays.)

Hang on - let's refresh what you said...

Weekdays have the biggest potential really and with the driver swaps and some of the additional trips running. Plus the existing 51X trips, it would be a marginal cost to run half hourly through the day on college days. College holidays would depend on driver changeovers and dead mileage trips for the 50 however the higher frequency on college days could stimulate growth on the route which in turn gives more passengers in the holidays. Combine that with the fact that the buses have paid for themselves with the college contract and so some of the half hourly service could still remain in place because it's got a lower operating cost compared to without the college contract. This is kind of a common thing in the industry to cross subsidise Mon-Fri School Holiday timetables using the school day profit.

You didn't mention Saturdays but what are the dead runs on a Saturday that need converting into 51Xs?

As for college holidays, I know you've said you'd have some peak hour College Holiday journeys and yes, the theory is you've paid for the buses and that this can provide additional revenue for marginal cost. However, have you considered that it might be a means for Stagecoach to manage their driver holidays? Or the requirement to have drivers back for other requirements? The C53 runs back empty - back in the depot by just after 0930 - ready to take on more duties. This is assuming that none of the drivers are part-timers; don't know if Swindon have any but Bristol depot does.

I know you're being passionate about it but you've not the visibility as to why they haven't done this. Ask yourself why aren't they doing it when they've shown a very pragmatic approach to developing their services?? As has been mentioned, they've had two attempts in developing the service so perhaps they already know what the benefit actually is, and it simply isn't worth it?

Whilst it's common to have a journey running in school holidays for consistency, wholesale running of college vehicles in all day service is less common. The X33/33 isn't a Faresaver initiative - that was the case in APL Travel days and comes from Wiltshire Council. The X34 is something of a hangover from when Faresaver were competing with First in order to swamp them off peak. They did the same on the X31 and the X72 though they have now returned to a consistent pattern across Mon to Sat having attained sole control of those routes.

 

[markymark2000]

You didn't mention Saturdays but what are the dead runs on a Saturday that need converting into 51Xs?

Think you'll find it was mentioned.

Weekends it is just covering dead mileage on the 51 as other routes don't run/timetables are very different.
Saturdays you have 2 trips to Cirencester in the morning and 1 trip back
Sundays you have 1 trip each way

As for college holidays, I know you've said you'd have some peak hour College Holiday journeys and yes, the theory is you've paid for the buses and that this can provide additional revenue for marginal cost. However, have you considered that it might be a means for Stagecoach to manage their driver holidays? Or the requirement to have drivers back for other requirements? The C53 runs back empty - back in the depot by just after 0930 - ready to take on more duties. This is assuming that none of the drivers are part-timers; don't know if Swindon have any but Bristol depot does.

My original suggestion was more converting college dead mileage but then that got expanded upon by other users and so I included college holidays because that is what Lighning suggested in #708. I'd love to know why you are taking things to the extreme as well. I found 8 Swindon ran routes which return to the depot and even providing an enhanced service, half hourly all the way, that is only an increase in 4 vehicles so there would still be dead mileage. You know damn well, as well as I do, that enhancements could be made EASILY to the 51, you just don't want to agree with me because you often make a point of principal of not agreeing with me, even when it's crystal clear that something is possible. Any more hurdles you want to throw up against the perfectly reasonable suggestion of running more trips on the 51 to replace dead mileage trips which were duplicating over the 51 service.

I know you're being passionate about it but you've not the visibility as to why they haven't done this. Ask yourself why aren't they doing it when they've shown a very pragmatic approach to developing their services?? As has been mentioned, they've had two attempts in developing the service so perhaps they already know what the benefit actually is, and it simply isn't worth it?

There's many reasons, most of them I won't say on the forum as I'd get moderated because my reasonings often are not PC enough for this forum and people get too easily offended when I voice my views. Not worth the moderation.

Whilst it's common to have a journey running in school holidays for consistency, wholesale running of college vehicles in all day service is less common. The X33/33 isn't a Faresaver initiative - that was the case in APL Travel days and comes from Wiltshire Council. The X34 is something of a hangover from when Faresaver were competing with First in order to swamp them off peak. They did the same on the X31 and the X72 though they have now returned to a consistent pattern across Mon to Sat having attained sole control of those routes.

Just because it's not their initiative, it is happening and people are ok with it. Doesn't matter the history of how it started, it is clearly something that works for them and is an example where Saturday timetables can be on a reduced timetable versus Mon-Fri which was the point being made.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Think you'll find it was mentioned.

Apologies - I was referring to a half hourly service rather than merely running the current empty ones out of service. So I'm not misrepresenting you...

The three you refer to are the 0658 and 0748 ex Ciren to Swindon, and the 1810 that arrives in Ciren at 1910?

I'd suggest that they are already running a 0610 and 0700 from Swindon to Cheltenham via Cirencester. As a manager, I can run a vehicle dead at 0610 or 0700 from Swindon depot (which is north of the town) to Cirencester. Or alternatively, I can run it into Swindon bus station incurring probably an extra 15 mins pay per driver and essentially duplicating the existing service car. Why do that?

The evening one might have more validity but you're looking at 1918 run to arrive back into Swindon at 2003, and I'd question whether there's much benefit.

My original suggestion was more converting college dead mileage but then that got expanded upon by other users and so I included college holidays because that is what Lighning suggested in #708. I'd love to know why you are taking things to the extreme as well. I found 8 Swindon ran routes which return to the depot and even providing an enhanced service, half hourly all the way, that is only an increase in 4 vehicles so there would still be dead mileage. You know damn well, as well as I do, that enhancements could be made EASILY to the 51, you just don't want to agree with me because you often make a point of principal of not agreeing with me, even when it's crystal clear that something is possible. Any more hurdles you want to throw up against the perfectly reasonable suggestion of running more trips on the 51 to replace dead mileage trips which were duplicating over the 51 service.

That's not the case. I am being devil's advocate in stating that there may well be reasons why they are doing this in this way.

All too often, you seem to simply suggest that all operators and councils are thick because they seemingly miss the things that you see as being eminently possible. On occasion, that is the case. However, they may well have their reasons, and I say this as someone who has had to make those decisions.

As has been said, it's not like Stagecoach has been shy in developing their routes, especially the ones out of Swindon, and they've tried Ciren a couple of times. Perhaps it's simply that with many of the CS routes having mid-day workings, it's simply just too much hassle for two little benefit.

I know it's one of your pet subjects; we just tend to disagree on the same subjects.

There's many reasons, most of them I won't say on the forum as I'd get moderated because my reasonings often are not PC enough for this forum and people get too easily offended when I voice my views. Not worth the moderation.

Them's the rules - we all have to abide by them

Just because it's not their initiative, it is happening and people are ok with it. Doesn't matter the history of how it started, it is clearly something that works for them and is an example where Saturday timetables can be on a reduced timetable versus Mon-Fri which was the point being made.

I do get the point. Faresaver did do that with the X34 (and others). However, how Stagecoach operate the Cirencester College routes vs how Faresaver's Lackham stuff works (or worked) is different.

 

[markymark2000]

Apologies - I was referring to a half hourly service rather than merely running the current empty ones out of service. So I'm not misrepresenting you...

I think the issue is that my one suggestion got snowballed as it got added to.

The three you refer to are the 0658 and 0748 ex Ciren to Swindon, and the 1810 that arrives in Ciren at 1910?


I'd suggest that they are already running a 0610 and 0700 from Swindon to Cheltenham via Cirencester. As a manager, I can run a vehicle dead at 0610 or 0700 from Swindon depot (which is north of the town) to Cirencester. Or alternatively, I can run it into Swindon bus station incurring probably an extra 15 mins pay per driver and essentially duplicating the existing service car. Why do that?

Of course no point in some of the cases where you are duplicating the service car but based off the timetable, you'd likely actually be filling gaps or providing a significantly quicker journey. Quicker journeys attract customers who otherwise may look at the morning normal 51 journeys and decide against it.

The evening one might have more validity but you're looking at 1918 run to arrive back into Swindon at 2003, and I'd question whether there's much benefit.

Saturday night, people wanting to head out for a drink, giving them more option.

That's not the case. I am being devil's advocate in stating that there may well be reasons why they are doing this in this way.

All too often, you seem to simply suggest that all operators and councils are thick because they seemingly miss the things that you see as being eminently possible. On occasion, that is the case. However, they may well have their reasons, and I say this as someone who has had to make those decisions.

As has been said, it's not like Stagecoach has been shy in developing their routes, especially the ones out of Swindon, and they've tried Ciren a couple of times. Perhaps it's simply that with many of the CS routes having mid-day workings, it's simply just too much hassle for two little benefit.

There's a big difference in running a blanket every 30 minutes though (or whatever frequency) and extra trips on college days (which was my original point. The former, as Lightning says would increase the route and depot PVR by 4. These additional routes must fully pay for themselves using fare revenue and the full cost burden of these additional buses is put onto the specific route to generate that additional revenue.
Extra trips on college days to reduce dead mileage (bearing in mind Stroud has done this on their C59 (though it probably should be renumbered as it suggests it's a college route only open to students rather than a local bus that anyone can use) is quite different and has significantly lower costs.

For the college buses, if they all ran back in service you'd end up with excessive amounts of buses at the same time, running two each way would work, especially the ones which already run to Swindon Bus Station. It's not just the Cirencester College buses which have dead runs though, there's runs off the 76/78 which does a midday round trip to Swindon for a driver swap and the bus off the 50 runs back to Swindon dead (college days this is 09:45 from Cirencester, College Holidays this happens at 15:45. If I had enough time into it, I could build a timetable for it to work but I don't have the time for that right now. Passengers cope with the 51X now which has the college day only trips plus the 08:15 which runs Mon-Fri irrespective of college days so I see no reason why this wouldn't work for passengers. Low cost, low risk, easy way to make an enhancement to a poor timetable. I can't see how it is hassle when in some cases it is literally what the drivers and buses are already doing. That surely couldn't be any less hassle.

I shan't comment on the second paragraph as that will lead to going off topic and again, it's not worth the moderation as I am not PC enough.

I do get the point. Faresaver did do that with the X34 (and others). However, how Stagecoach operate the Cirencester College routes vs how Faresaver's Lackham stuff works (or worked) is different.

There's a number of areas where Saturdays are reduced versus Mon-Fri, especially now as areas like Liverpool and Manchester really cut back on Saturday services. For keeping vehicles out between contracts, there's plenty of examples of that too with things such as routes which only run Mon-Fri specifically worked around schools. I don't think that there is a way to rid all dead mileage between Ciren and Swindon but you can definitely remove some of it.

 

[Simon75]

Wouldn't it be more practical and cost effective, for Stagecoach to open an outstation in Cirencester?

 

[lightning76]

Wouldn't it be more practical and cost effective, for Stagecoach to open an outstation in Cirencester?

Not really.

There used to be one. It was a PITA to operate. At the end in 2014, it had 4 buses and 10 drivers. The buses needed to come off revenue earning service in Swindon to go to depot to be washed and fuelled. The drivers were paid to do that, sitting at the depot watching the wash do it's thing.

Covering 10 drivers, holidays, sickness and other absence (such as CPC training) comes expensive when you have to pay someone to go there, travel time and mileage.

Security was a problem. After various incidents, the outstation settled at the MoD base outside the town, requiring drivers to be taxied at the start and end of their shifts. Although having to pass a man with a gun at the gate did at least stop vandalism incidents!

So all told it wasn't more cost effective. Vehicles on the country routes at Swindon will do up to 300 miles a day, each. If a couple do 15 miles dead to Ciren, it really doesn't make much difference, although I do understand why it looks wasteful at first glance.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course no point in some of the cases where you are duplicating the service car but based off the timetable, you'd likely actually be filling gaps or providing a significantly quicker journey. Quicker journeys attract customers who otherwise may look at the morning normal 51 journeys and decide against it.

I think you're overestimating the demand for buses between Swindon and Ciren on a Saturday and Sunday morning. Saving 15 mins is really not going to influence someone to use the bus in preference to using a car or getting a lift.

I did say that running back at 1918 on a Saturday might have more validity but the others - just not gonna happen. I should also point out that those early runs from Swindon at 0610/0700 are already journeys that were introduced to eliminate dead running when Ciren outstation closed.

I just think that Stagecoach West managers, who aren't stupid and are experienced, will have considered and then discounted providing an off peak uplift using spare resources, and that they've done that for a reason. Also, they have the luxury of knowing from previous experiments on the 51, and the 53, as to what the impact would be.

As for many areas now having Mon - Fri vs Sat headways. Well, that is more common now but that's generally a reflection on how Saturdays have declined in patronage terms.

Wouldn't it be more practical and cost effective, for Stagecoach to open an outstation in Cirencester?

Adding to the detailed response from @lightning76, there are some other bits of information. Ciren did indeed have its own depot until the early 1980s (and you can still find it) on Love Lane https://www.google.com/maps/@51.704...WuxUelkju7tn-E8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

After that closed, they moved to the former bus station which is by the old train station, moved to another site on Love Lane, and might even been elsewhere before they moved to the army base at South Cerney. Stagecoach had a couple of outbases (with Chippenham) but for the reasons that @lightning76 describes, they were of that tricky size where they haven't quite got the critical mass. That means they take up a disproportionate amount of management time e.g. trying to cover for a driver who rings in sick at 0700. Also, the old Swindon depot was in Old Town; since moving to Cheney Manor, they're now on the right side of town.

I'm a believer in having outstations to reduce dead mileage or increase the pool of staff to recruit from but there's a point where some are simply too much hassle/too small for the benefits of having them. That said, I'd have kept a site in Ross (but closed the depot).

 

[CharlesR]

I'm a believer in having outstations to reduce dead mileage or increase the pool of staff to recruit from but there's a point where some are simply too much hassle/too small for the benefits of having them. That said, I'd have kept a site in Ross (but closed the depot).

The Ross situation had changed by the time it closed though. They lost all the town routes and ended up having only 8 cards leaving the depot each day. The 32/132 were withdrawn from Ross/Ledbury at the time. There is now only one light run on the 33 (Gloucester depot for the 07:10).

The current provision for the forest works well for Stagecoach. The service provided has certainly had better days however it’s logistically a lot easier than it was in previous years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Ross situation had changed by the time it closed though. They lost all the town routes and ended up having only 8 cards leaving the depot each day. The 32/132 were withdrawn from Ross/Ledbury at the time. There is now only one light run on the 33 (Gloucester depot for the 07:10).

The current provision for the forest works well for Stagecoach. The service provided has certainly had better days however it’s logistically a lot easier than it was in previous years.

I'm not disagreeing. The depot simply wasn't sustainable but I'd have perhaps looked to obtain a compound. In fact, I think that was the position for a time with the old depot vacated and the parking area retained (where the car wash is now).

Perhaps they did and just couldn't? There again, with Milkwall already in place, perhaps that's sufficient as a local base?

PS - have uploaded details and photos in the trip planning section at the top of section detailing experience of Stagecoach West the other week

Something else I spotted the other day that might be taking some middle-of-the-day resources. Not noticed before but Stagecoach is operating a closed door works service for Stonegate Farmers (egg producers) near Chippenham.

Vehicle I saw didn't track and was heading on the Chippers bypass at 1330ish. Wonder if it's a two way flow from Chippenham on a classic 3 shift system 0600/1400/2200 and bringing in workers from Swindon area?