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Stagecoach X5 Oxford-Cambridge

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al_557

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Once all the transfers and repaints into the yellow 'distance' livery happen. Bedford depot's fleet of E400 MMC's for the X5 and 905 will be 10499/803/04/66-81/11279/80.
5 Elite coaches will remain at Bedford for the 99 for the time being although this route is rumoured to be having the coaches replaced by buses too. Most probably single decks as it doesn't get as many passengers as the X5
 
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Once all the transfers and repaints into the yellow 'distance' livery happen. Bedford depot's fleet of E400 MMC's for the X5 and 905 will be 10499/803/04/66-81/11279/80.
5 Elite coaches will remain at Bedford for the 99 for the time being although this route is rumoured to be having the coaches replaced by buses too. Most probably single decks as it doesn't get as many passengers as the X5

I would imagine the 99 will most likely get Enviro200s in the 36xxx/37xxx series.
 

johnw

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This was once a flag ship service with a brilliant livery. Why do Stagecoach think that motorists will leave their car behind and use a semi coach seated rattling E400MMC With that rancid yellow livery? How about double deck coaches or the ADL/Scania product that First Eastern Counties on their Excel route?
 

londonteacher

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This was once a flag ship service with a brilliant livery. Why do Stagecoach think that motorists will leave their car behind and use a semi coach seated rattling E400MMC With that rancid yellow livery? How about double deck coaches or the ADL/Scania product that First Eastern Counties on their Excel route?
I think this is unfair - a coach isn't needed. Most people don't care about the livery or the vehicle. If they are travelling long distance all they care about is a comfy seat, charging facilities and potentially wifi.

E400MMCs have and can be fitted with comfy seats so are not a bad choice for this route. To be honest a comfy E400MMC could do London to Glasgow and the average customer wouldn't care if it was in a yellow livery as long as it was comfortable.
 

Ianno87

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I think this is unfair - a coach isn't needed. Most people don't care about the livery or the vehicle. If they are travelling long distance all they care about is a comfy seat, charging facilities and potentially wifi.

E400MMCs have and can be fitted with comfy seats so are not a bad choice for this route. To be honest a comfy E400MMC could do London to Glasgow and the average customer wouldn't care if it was in a yellow livery as long as it was comfortable.

If the Cambridge end is anything to go by, people prefer actually having space for them to get on!

If anything, I prefer double deckers (with decent seats) over coaches - much better visibility from inside. Folks who (for example) suffer from travel sickness would most likely prefer double deckers too.
 

Bletchleyite

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Except the bus serves Buckingham

I know you like to disagree with me out of pure principle, but to do so in a post that actually specifically says what I think would happen to Buckingham, and why, without saying why you think my view on that is wrong?

which the train won't be able to along with the shopping area of MK and Coachway.

Coachway is not a high demand stop for the X5. The station is a fair way from the shops, but some won't mind walking and for others there are frequent buses, hire bikes, scooters etc. Even with this East West Rail will be substantially quicker. Unless you do something like Transdev and Trent quality level (which swapping the coaches for bog standard deckers in school bus livery won't do) bus services directly competing with a good quality rail service don't tend to do well.

If the Cambridge end is anything to go by, people prefer actually having space for them to get on!

If anything, I prefer double deckers (with decent seats) over coaches - much better visibility from inside. Folks who (for example) suffer from travel sickness would most likely prefer double deckers too.

I look forward to doing it on a decker for something different! But that is an enthusiast's view.

On the other hand the regular passenger loses aircon, ride quality, noise levels, cycle carriage and the toilet.

Definitely a massive downgrade.

I think this is unfair - a coach isn't needed. Most people don't care about the livery or the vehicle.

I so wish Alex Hornby and Ray Stenning posted here just to prove how wrong this is.
 

Bletchleyite

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Most people prefer to actually be able to get on the bus.

I haven't noticed a capacity problem on the western side since the half hourly service and long wheelbase coaches. Perhaps towards Cambridge, but that side of the route has a totally different character and usage pattern, as it mostly isn't paralleled by a local bus service of some sort, which other than between Buckingham and Bicester the western part is.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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From what I understand, some journeys into Cambridge were overloading and so it made sense to have deckers on that portion of the route. The loss of the toilet is perhaps not the biggest deal now the route has been split, and Go North East have shown how you can have cycle spaces on such vehicles. As has been shown on the Norfolk Excel (which I've been on) and the Transdev WitchWay (which I've not been on since SkyClass appeared), you can definitely have a vert good spec vehicle in a double decker bus shell though these Stagecoach ones are more spartan vehicles than even the Gold spec was?

Having sufficient capacity for a service, or it running to time, should not be a consideration; these are entry level requirements that constitute an inherent feature of the product. Not leaving customers behind shouldn't be a issue that takes precedent over livery/marketing etc. It should be part and parcel of the product. Stagecoach are really missing a trick in their marketing of routes like this and the Falcon and the blanket adoption of a very underwhelming livery.

It's a retrograde step. I don't hold with the "it has to be a coach" mentality but there are better ways of doing this.
 

Bletchleyite

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From what I understand, some journeys into Cambridge were overloading and so it made sense to have deckers on that portion of the route. The loss of the toilet is perhaps not the biggest deal now the route has been split, and Go North East have shown how you can have cycle spaces on such vehicles. As has been shown on the Norfolk Excel (which I've been on) and the Transdev WitchWay (which I've not been on since SkyClass appeared), you can definitely have a vert good spec vehicle in a double decker bus shell though these Stagecoach ones are more spartan vehicles than even the Gold spec was?

The standard spec I think is now very close to the Gold spec in comfort, but the colour scheme is very cheap and Ryanair. It's probably as good as the rather poor Arriva Sapphire spec but not exactly premium. Gold spec had a warmer, more attractive colour scheme and a nicer livery - I think that would be the minimum really acceptable, and does work on the other former coach X5 route in the Lakes (Penrith-Keswick).

Cycle carriage is probably not a big issue as you very rarely saw that capability used, though I guess it wasn't publicised.

Having sufficient capacity for a service, or it running to time, should not be a consideration; these are entry level requirements that constitute an inherent feature of the product. Not leaving customers behind shouldn't be a issue that takes precedent over livery/marketing etc. It should be part and parcel of the product. Stagecoach are really missing a trick in their marketing of routes like this and the Falcon and the blanket adoption of a very underwhelming livery.

The whole new Stagecoach branding package is very poor, I agree, with the bus livery looking like Fisher Price toys. But the worst of the bunch is the yellow coach livery, which is just school bus yellow. I don't know what on earth they were thinking. Least worst is the green one.

It's a retrograde step. I don't hold with the "it has to be a coach" mentality but there are better ways of doing this.

I genuinely believe it's being run down for withdrawal once East West Rail phase 1 opens. Otherwise why would you downgrade it this much? I do agree that Transdev have got the "bus type vehicles on longer routes" thing right in this regard, the Lakes 555 is also a decent example.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I genuinely believe it's being run down for withdrawal once East West Rail phase 1 opens. Otherwise why would you downgrade it this much? I do agree that Transdev have got the "bus type vehicles on longer routes" thing right in this regard, the Lakes 555 is also a decent example.
On the Eastern half to Cambridge, it was for reasons of capacity and, in any case, the stand time in Bedford made it really feel like two routes anyway.

As for the Western half from Bedford to Oxford, it's perhaps a bit more nuanced. You have a fleet of 64 plate coaches so they're coming up to 7 years old. They've had a few issues in the past anyway with transmissions (I think I heard) but in any case, they're getting on a bit with reliability beginning to decline and replacement is probably due.

So do Stagecoach replace them with a very expensive fleet of new coaches that they may struggle to find a home for in 7 years time and at a time when funds seem a little tighter than in the past and with the uncertainty of what may happen when EWR does appear? OR do they slide across some humdrum but modern and reliable and reasonably comfortable e400mmcs? They've chosen the latter.

I suspect that rather than a withdrawal, you may see the X5 become part of the S5 pattern simply with one bus per hour (or perhaps two) projected eastwards to MK or Bedford
 

Bletchleyite

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On the Eastern half to Cambridge, it was for reasons of capacity and, in any case, the stand time in Bedford made it really feel like two routes anyway.

Yes, I agree the Cambridge end was for different reasons, and East West Rail Phase 2 is far longer off and may not even happen, who knows? But with the Oxford end, even if they were going to deckers they could have done so with proper quality levels, not just a generic route in school bus yellow.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Yes, I agree the Cambridge end was for different reasons, and East West Rail Phase 2 is far longer off and may not even happen, who knows? But with the Oxford end, even if they were going to deckers they could have done so with proper quality levels, not just a generic route in school bus yellow.
With which deckers? Clearly, money is tight and the need is pressing so they've shuffled the pack. I don't think it's more than that.

As for the livery... you know my views on that
 

A0

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I know you like to disagree with me out of pure principle, but to do so in a post that actually specifically says what I think would happen to Buckingham, and why, without saying why you think my view on that is wrong?

I don't believe it will simply be replaced with a Buckingham - Bicester - Oxford service.

I suspect the X5 - at least as a Bedford - Oxford service will survive, particularly whilst EWR only reaches Bedford, because then it will come down to things like whether the train and coach compete directly - which they don't because of Buckingham among other things, the fact that ENCTs passes are accepted on the X5, whereas the train will cost. And even for students the X5 will probably be cheaper.
 

Megafuss

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Buckingham-Milton Keynes-Bedford used to be very busy, specifically the MK/Bedford part. Not sure what it's like these days as it's been over a year since I used the service.

East West Rail won't be taking that part as folk would still need to change at Bletchley!
 

CBlue

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On the Eastern half to Cambridge, it was for reasons of capacity and, in any case, the stand time in Bedford made it really feel like two routes anyway.

As for the Western half from Bedford to Oxford, it's perhaps a bit more nuanced. You have a fleet of 64 plate coaches so they're coming up to 7 years old. They've had a few issues in the past anyway with transmissions (I think I heard) but in any case, they're getting on a bit with reliability beginning to decline and replacement is probably due.

So do Stagecoach replace them with a very expensive fleet of new coaches that they may struggle to find a home for in 7 years time and at a time when funds seem a little tighter than in the past and with the uncertainty of what may happen when EWR does appear? OR do they slide across some humdrum but modern and reliable and reasonably comfortable e400mmcs? They've chosen the latter.

I suspect that rather than a withdrawal, you may see the X5 become part of the S5 pattern simply with one bus per hour (or perhaps two) projected eastwards to MK or Bedford

The Elites struggled a lot in several ways on the X5.

Firstly you had problems with using what was effectively a tour coach on a regional express bus service with several bits of "all stops" operation in between, especially through St Neots where in parts it operates the only frequent local service! Gearboxes and door mechanisms didn't like this, strangely enough.
It wasn't helped that originally the route had a dedicated driver pool using tachographs, the route registration was then split to allow use under domestic hours. As a result drivers went from a small group (who understood how to handle the coaches and the technique needed to get the best out of the sometimes clunky Volvo I-shift automated manual transmission) to a large pool of drivers, some of whom thrashed them and didn't treat them gently in the slightest. Holding a I-shift equipped vehicle on an incline with part throttle applied instead of using the handbrake is a surefire way to burn out the clutch, yet such abuse happened more frequently in recent years in my experience.

Secondly the Elites never had the capacity, especially between St Neots and Cambridge. I seem to recall before COVID it wasn't unusual to see a Cambridge or Bedford 'decker (or sometimes even a Dennis Dart!) running a duplicate on some services between Cambridge and Bedford during the peak.

The E400s solved those problems in one swoop. As for toilets, the hotch-potch of Volvo B10M coaches used before the fleet of Plaxton Panthers arrived in 2008 didn't all have toilets fitted, or the "spare" Volvo B7R's that were in use occasionally until fairly recently - the stops at Bedford and Milton Keynes Coachway normally being long enough to nip to the loo if needed.
 

al_557

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The Elites are gradually being transferred to East Scotland. 54309 is now the only one left in service at Bedford. The 10 plate ex Cambridge E400's are in use on the 99 and 905 until more E400MMC's can be sourced.
The X5 takes priority, So the all available E400 MMC's are on that service and any left over go on the 99 and 905. Bedford currently has 15 E400 MMC's and will need 8 or 9 more to cover the X5, 99 and 905
 

GusB

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Noticed one earlier. Such a downgrade for both routes, and the livery looks like they're just putting school buses on it between school runs (I know they're not!)
Bus companies were using yellow-based liveries long before yellow school buses became a thing. You should be over this by now!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Bus companies were using yellow-based liveries long before yellow school buses became a thing. You should be over this by now!
To be fair, they have chosen the worst shade of yellow though! However, it is probably time we moved on that subject.

As an aside, I'm trying to recall which firms have had yellow as a livery. I guess that the obvious ones are your home firm Alexander Northern, and Tyne and Wear PTE (inherited from Newcastle Corpy and perpetuated by Busways) plus the United and Northern vehicles employed in the TWPTE areas. Wallasey Corporation? There's probably some more obvious ones of old, and then you get into the latter day era of BET (Beeline Manchester and Zippy Preston), Berks Bucks (Beeline).

Anyway, we digress....
 

Bletchleyite

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As an aside, I'm trying to recall which firms have had yellow as a livery. I guess that the obvious ones are your home firm Alexander Northern, and Tyne and Wear PTE (inherited from Newcastle Corpy and perpetuated by Busways) plus the United and Northern vehicles employed in the TWPTE areas. Wallasey Corporation? There's probably some more obvious ones of old, and then you get into the latter day era of BET (Beeline Manchester and Zippy Preston), Berks Bucks (Beeline).

Bournemouth Yellow Buses is probably the more recent obvious one.
 

gray1404

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At first I was unhappy when I heard about the removal of a coaches from the X5. Getting off the train onto an intercity coach MK to Oxford made it feel premium - rather then a standard bus. However, I've got used to the idea now and am releived that the service is still running and is back to every 30 minutes along the full Oxford - Bedford route - not cut any further. Long may it stay that way.

However my Merseyside Disabled ENCT Pass still doesn't register on the ticket machine of the X5, despite contacting Bedford Customer Service and been assured this will be solved. I am sick of having to explain to the driver the pass is still valid and be issued with a manual free ticket after some debate. I'm yet to be denied travel or asked to pay though, thankfully.
 
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A0

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To be fair, they have chosen the worst shade of yellow though! However, it is probably time we moved on that subject.

As an aside, I'm trying to recall which firms have had yellow as a livery. I guess that the obvious ones are your home firm Alexander Northern, and Tyne and Wear PTE (inherited from Newcastle Corpy and perpetuated by Busways) plus the United and Northern vehicles employed in the TWPTE areas. Wallasey Corporation? There's probably some more obvious ones of old, and then you get into the latter day era of BET (Beeline Manchester and Zippy Preston), Berks Bucks (Beeline).

Anyway, we digress....

BIB - Bournemouth Corporation for many years. More recently London Country's Superbus in Stevenage. More recent still Capital Citybus, Thamesway and Eastern National, MK Metro, London Buslines. Just off the top of my head.
 

gray1404

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To be fair, the route is fairly scenic (though not spectacular) and might actually have better views from the top deck than a coach.
Good point, since the double decker introduction to the X5, I've always had a coach turn up still. I am however excited to travel on the top desk for the enhanced views when I get the chance. Provided I do not have a lot of luggage with me and can manage the stairs with what I have.

I am yet to see the X5 be overcrowded between the section of the route I use - Oxford to MKC. Fairly full but not to capacity. Is it mainly the MKC to Bedford section that is rammed?
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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BIB - Bournemouth Corporation for many years. More recently London Country's Superbus in Stevenage. More recent still Capital Citybus, Thamesway and Eastern National, MK Metro, London Buslines. Just off the top of my head.
Bournemouth, of course - doh! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I hadn't done an exhaustive list of post de-reg as it was then that yellow became more prevalent for marketing reasons and yes, Capital Citybus and MK Metro (and you could have the other Status firms like Bakers and Classic) were very yellow and so were EN/Thamesway, more so than say Midland Fox or Clydeside or Badgerline. I'm sure there's loads of others out there
 

Cdd89

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I used to be a very frequent traveler on this route, going all the way from Oxford to Cambridge at least once a month (it was back in the old Milton Keynes Coachway days!); it took a long time often involving an inexplicable change of bus.

Since then, new roads have opened up making the drive from Oxford to Cambridge more attractive, but the bus sticks to its route. I couldn’t care less how attractive the scenery is from the top of a double decker since I always did/do it at night. The one benefit of the Stagecoach Gold buses was comfy seats; the above mentioned change to an old NatEx coach half way through was annoying and I simply wouldn’t do the journey on a bus designed for short distances.

As I live in London now I’ve thankfully rarely had to use it again. But I remain convinced there would be demand for an end to end express service. There certainly aren’t many passengers using it for that purpose but I suspect that’s because even two trains and a cross-London interchange is preferable to those willing to pay more than £1.
 

A0

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I used to be a very frequent traveler on this route, going all the way from Oxford to Cambridge at least once a month (it was back in the old Milton Keynes Coachway days!); it took a long time often involving an inexplicable change of bus.

Since then, new roads have opened up making the drive from Oxford to Cambridge more attractive, but the bus sticks to its route. I couldn’t care less how attractive the scenery is from the top of a double decker since I always did/do it at night. The one benefit of the Stagecoach Gold buses was comfy seats; the above mentioned change to an old NatEx coach half way through was annoying and I simply wouldn’t do the journey on a bus designed for short distances.

As I live in London now I’ve thankfully rarely had to use it again. But I remain convinced there would be demand for an end to end express service. There certainly aren’t many passengers using it for that purpose but I suspect that’s because even two trains and a cross-London interchange is preferable to those willing to pay more than £1.

Knowing the area over the last 20 years, the only significant "new" road was the Bedford bypass from Jnc 13 of the M1 to Black Cat - however, I'm not sure that is a viable route for the X5 if it's going to serve Central MK and Coachway.

Coachway's next to Junc 14, in terms of distance going to Junc 13 and along the A421 is probably longer and slower than the X5's current route via the A509 / A 422 and it brings it into Bedford on a better route into the town centre.

The rest of the route is dictated to an extent by demand - you *could* by pass Buckingham, but it would lose passengers, you *could* by pass Bicester - same issue, so I'm struggling to see how you'd re-route the X5 without causing a load of other knock on issues.
 
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