Stagecoach Yorkshire and Chesterfield

[syjunkie]

Anyone a clue as to when these Yutongs will enter service? I'm dying to try them out!

Reports so far are saying 6th may

 

[Teapot42]

That's quite ambitious. It's actually 5 buses - three on the blue and two on the red - plus a sixth bus at Chatsworth between 11.40 and 16.52 presumably to provide reliefs for the other buses. Early and late journeys provide direct journeys from southern and western Sheffield to both Chatsworth and Castleton. Let's hope there is good weather and they attract decent custom.

You are right, I can't count... I think I was basing it on the Breezer plus a bit on each end. Just goes to show how stupidly tight that was.

My main concern would be the fairly short layover at Mam Tor, the section beyond Castleton is plagued by bad parking and excessive traffic at the weekend so I can well see them struggling to do the round trip in half an hour, daft as that sounds.

As well as an open top bus, they also need a park and ride as you spend so long driving around Hathersage, Hope and Castleton trying to find a parking space and causing traffic disruption as you go.

 

[J-2739]

Reports so far are saying 6th may

Fingers crossed.

 

[Llandudno]

That's quite ambitious. It's actually 5 buses - three on the blue and two on the red - plus a sixth bus at Chatsworth between 11.40 and 16.52 presumably to provide reliefs for the other buses. Early and late journeys provide direct journeys from southern and western Sheffield to both Chatsworth and Castleton. Let's hope there is good weather and they attract decent custom.

Whilst it’s great to see a network of frequent open top tourist buses running around the Peak District, I am little uncomfortable that tax payers money is being provided to subsidise these buses, especially as there are whole swathes of Derbyshire without evening or services.

Additionally, the publicly funded Peak Sightseer buses do not accept Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets, PlusBus or ENCTS Passed, nor are they part of £2 bus fare cap.

If public funds are used then the usual tax payer concessions/integrated tickets should be valid especially if encouraging modal shift?

 

[Teapot42]

Whilst it’s great to see a network of frequent open top tourist buses running around the Peak District, I am little uncomfortable that tax payers money is being provided to subsidise these buses, especially as there are whole swathes of Derbyshire without evening or services.

Additionally, the publicly funded Peak Sightseer buses do not accept Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets, PlusBus or ENCTS Passed, nor are they part of £2 bus fare cap.

If public funds are used then the usual tax payer concessions/integrated tickets should be valid especially if encouraging modal shift?

I had the same argument with their MD. His counter is that they'd be running the services at a loss if they accepted Wayfarers.

In a way he has a point, but that's mainly due to how the Wayfarer works and the network Stagecoach operate. From what I can understand there is no revenue sharing with the Wayfarer. If an operator sells a Wayfarer they keep all that revenue. As not many people riding the Sightseer would start their journey on a Stagecoach bus that means Stagecoach won't see much revenue from the Wayfarer so would in effect be carrying those people for free.

I do know Hulleys have similar concerns about how Wayfarer revenue is 'shared', so I'd hope some changes might be forthcoming so it is split based on journeys made, not where the ticket is sold. However, there is also the argument that as Stagecoach have a very limited offering in the Peak District which could connect with these services then that's partly on them.

I wonder what the BSIP money is for this year. Previously it was only for the winter running (so I'm told) but as that isn't happening this year then I can't see how this is anything but a commercial service.

Whether it's possible within competition rules I don't know, but I also wonder if a combined ticket could be agreed on with operators such as Hulleys and TM where the 170 / 218 could be used to get in to the area then use the Peak Sightseer. If BSIP money was used for such a purpose then I'd have absolutely no issue with that as it's encouraging modal shift.

That's quite ambitious. It's actually 5 buses - three on the blue and two on the red - plus a sixth bus at Chatsworth between 11.40 and 16.52 presumably to provide reliefs for the other buses. Early and late journeys provide direct journeys from southern and western Sheffield to both Chatsworth and Castleton. Let's hope there is good weather and they attract decent custom.

I'm wondering which 6 buses these are. Bustimes is only showing 5 as open top, but one, 15717 was running as a normal bus in late March. How long does a conversion take?

19336 (the Manchester tree victim) is shown in the fleet but not as open top, not sure if that is ready yet either.

I wonder if the Scanias will be favoured on the Blue route due to the steeper nature of this route.

 

[syjunkie]

I had the same argument with their MD. His counter is that they'd be running the services at a loss if they accepted Wayfarers.

In a way he has a point, but that's mainly due to how the Wayfarer works and the network Stagecoach operate. From what I can understand there is no revenue sharing with the Wayfarer. If an operator sells a Wayfarer they keep all that revenue. As not many people riding the Sightseer would start their journey on a Stagecoach bus that means Stagecoach won't see much revenue from the Wayfarer so would in effect be carrying those people for free.

I do know Hulleys have similar concerns about how Wayfarer revenue is 'shared', so I'd hope some changes might be forthcoming so it is split based on journeys made, not where the ticket is sold. However, there is also the argument that as Stagecoach have a very limited offering in the Peak District which could connect with these services then that's partly on them.

I wonder what the BSIP money is for this year. Previously it was only for the winter running (so I'm told) but as that isn't happening this year then I can't see how this is anything but a commercial service.

Whether it's possible within competition rules I don't know, but I also wonder if a combined ticket could be agreed on with operators such as Hulleys and TM where the 170 / 218 could be used to get in to the area then use the Peak Sightseer. If BSIP money was used for such a purpose then I'd have absolutely no issue with that as it's encouraging modal shift.


I'm wondering which 6 buses these are. Bustimes is only showing 5 as open top, but one, 15717 was running as a normal bus in late March. How long does a conversion take?

19336 (the Manchester tree victim) is shown in the fleet but not as open top, not sure if that is ready yet either.

I wonder if the Scanias will be favoured on the Blue route due to the steeper nature of this route.

19336 is at chesterfield still with damage from the tree, 15717 has apparently been converted but still in beachball and the third is the ex Lincoln tour b7 Gemini from East Midlands which is already at chesterfield but unsure if it has been repainted yet

 

[Teapot42]

19336 is at chesterfield still with damage from the tree, 15717 has apparently been converted but still in beachball and the third is the ex Lincoln tour b7 Gemini from East Midlands which is already at chesterfield but unsure if it has been repainted yet

Sounds as if they'll possibly not have a spare for the start of the service then?
18467 is still in the 'temporary' livery so there could well be a bit of a variety of liveries as well.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Whilst it’s great to see a network of frequent open top tourist buses running around the Peak District, I am little uncomfortable that tax payers money is being provided to subsidise these buses, especially as there are whole swathes of Derbyshire without evening or services.

Additionally, the publicly funded Peak Sightseer buses do not accept Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets, PlusBus or ENCTS Passed, nor are they part of £2 bus fare cap.

If public funds are used then the usual tax payer concessions/integrated tickets should be valid especially if encouraging modal shift?

If they were to offer those discounts and freebies then the level of subsidy would have to be higher and as it's primarily a tourist service rather than part of the local public transport network isn't neccesary..

The Stagecoach Gold tickets are accepted, if you are using a feeder service then for example from Woodseats there are Stagecoach buses 25, 43, 43a, 44 and X17 providing connections or Stagecoach bus 65 provides connections in the Peak District.

If you have an ENCTS pass you can get a local bus out to the Peaks for free then enjoy a discounted price on the Sightseer.

 

[Llandudno]

If they were to offer those discounts and freebies then the level of subsidy would have to be higher and as it's primarily a tourist service rather than part of the local public transport network isn't neccesary..

The Stagecoach Gold tickets are accepted, if you are using a feeder service then for example from Woodseats there are Stagecoach buses 25, 43, 43a, 44 and X17 providing connections or Stagecoach bus 65 provides connections in the Peak District.

If you have an ENCTS pass you can get a local bus out to the Peaks for free then enjoy a discounted price on the Sightseer.

Agreed, but as it is ‘primarily a tourist service rather than part of the local public transport network’ should tax payers money be subsidising it?

Maybe Peak Rail could ask the Government for financial support to run more train services between Matlock and Rowsley…?

 

[ALEMASTER]

Agreed, but as it is ‘primarily a tourist service rather than part of the local public transport network’ should tax payers money be subsidising it?

Maybe Peak Rail could ask the Government for financial support to run more train services between Matlock and Rowsley…?

Derbyshire County Council and the Peak National Park authority have presumably decided it is a worthwhile investment, I would guess both for the economy of the area and the environment benefits of less car journeys being made around the national park by visitors.

 

[Teapot42]

Derbyshire County Council and the Peak National Park authority have presumably decided it is a worthwhile investment, I would guess both for the economy of the area and the environment benefits of less car journeys being made around the national park by visitors.

Which links back to my argument that without some sort of reciprocal ticketing or acceptance of the Wayfarer people are more likely to drive to use it than use the bus. Certainly the one time I used it last year we did - the cost of parking at Chatsworth was less than the bus fare for our group and we are close enough that fuel costs don't come in to the equation. Had we been able to buy a ticket that covered the 170 and Peak Sightseer then we'd probably have left the car at home.

 

[507021]

Deleted, wrong thread.

 

[mk1979]

Bit of an update following several posts from other users on here:

Yutongs - likely into service mid-May now. The buses are ready and the physical infrastructure at the depot will be in place but there is a delay in turning the power on by the grid supplier.

Peak Sightseer - it’s 6 pvr this season, a significant expansion on last year’s successful season with lots of feedback incorporated into this season including slower running times, more connections from Chesterfield and Sheffield and new for this season a commentary on both routes.

The original route (now “Red Route”) is operating entirely commercially this year. Research showed it contributed over £500,000 to the local economy in generating new visitors who wouldn’t have otherwise visited locations along the route so it offered an exceptionally good return on last years investment by DfT and DCC. Hence this year they are funding the new “Blue” route for a season to improve accessibility across the National Park and particularly the many camp sites along the Hope Valley and giving public transport access to the ever popular Mam Tor.

We thought long and hard about fares, the £2 capped fare really isn’t for routes like this and many tourist routes are excluded and including them would drain the pot of available DfT funds far quicker. Stagecoach Gold is now the day ticket to use for Peak Sightseer, giving automatic access to all Stagecoach buses in Yorkshire and East Midlands.

Derbyshire Wayfarer is a ‘revenue lies where it falls’ reimbursement ticket so no revenue apportionment based on usage not sales so we would effectively be carrying people for free who’d arrived in the area on another operators service. That is not a financially viable proposition. If Wayfarer reimbursement changes in the future then we’ll reconsider the position. In the meantime Wayfarer users get a discount on Peak Sightseer.

Finally on fleet, last years buses 18367, 15718 and 15719 all return. Joined this year by 16943 (which is ours now) and newly converted 15717 both of which are in Peak Sightseer livery. We’ll also be borrowing 3 open toppers from our colleagues in the South West for the season (swapped for 3 E200’s) as they need less open tops this season.

Longer term we have our eyes on several buses to convert next winter although the Manchester tree victim we recently acquired won’t be one of them - the damage is far more extensive than initially thought so it will be for spares then scrap.

Finally on the fleet front, we’ll be placing an order for 57 electric buses for Chesterfield later this year, we have an order in for 12 new National Express coaches and we have some potentially big cascades for the end of 2024 which will standardise the fleet.

 

[Mwanesh]

Bit of an update following several posts from other users on here:

Yutongs - likely into service mid-May now. The buses are ready and the physical infrastructure at the depot will be in place but there is a delay in turning the power on by the grid supplier.

Peak Sightseer - it’s 6 pvr this season, a significant expansion on last year’s successful season with lots of feedback incorporated into this season including slower running times, more connections from Chesterfield and Sheffield and new for this season a commentary on both routes.

The original route (now “Red Route”) is operating entirely commercially this year. Research showed it contributed over £500,000 to the local economy in generating new visitors who wouldn’t have otherwise visited locations along the route so it offered an exceptionally good return on last years investment by DfT and DCC. Hence this year they are funding the new “Blue” route for a season to improve accessibility across the National Park and particularly the many camp sites along the Hope Valley and giving public transport access to the ever popular Mam Tor.

We thought long and hard about fares, the £2 capped fare really isn’t for routes like this and many tourist routes are excluded and including them would drain the pot of available DfT funds far quicker. Stagecoach Gold is now the day ticket to use for Peak Sightseer, giving automatic access to all Stagecoach buses in Yorkshire and East Midlands.

Derbyshire Wayfarer is a ‘revenue lies where it falls’ reimbursement ticket so no revenue apportionment based on usage not sales so we would effectively be carrying people for free who’d arrived in the area on another operators service. That is not a financially viable proposition. If Wayfarer reimbursement changes in the future then we’ll reconsider the position. In the meantime Wayfarer users get a discount on Peak Sightseer.

Finally on fleet, last years buses 18367, 15718 and 15719 all return. Joined this year by 16943 (which is ours now) and newly converted 15717 both of which are in Peak Sightseer livery. We’ll also be borrowing 3 open toppers from our colleagues in the South West for the season (swapped for 3 E200’s) as they need less open tops this season.

Longer term we have our eyes on several buses to convert next winter although the Manchester tree victim we recently acquired won’t be one of them - the damage is far more extensive than initially thought so it will be for spares then scrap.

Finally on the fleet front, we’ll be placing an order for 57 electric buses for Chesterfield later this year, we have an order in for 12 new National Express coaches and we have some potentially big cascades for the end of 2024 which will standardise the fleet.

Good the National Express fleet is nearly at the replacement age. Only one of the fleet is a 19 plate the others are all on 67 plates.

 

[Hyebone]

Yutongs - likely into service mid-May now. The buses are ready and the physical infrastructure at the depot will be in place but there is a delay in turning the power on by the grid supplier.

Will there be a launch event of sorts? It's certainly a momentous occasion for the region.

 

[mk1979]

Good the National Express fleet is nearly at the replacement age. Only one of the fleet is a 19 plate the others are all on 67 plates.

Slight correction, 3 are 67, 8 are 19 and 1 is 69 plate. Usual replacement age is 5 years but because of the pandemic these coaches have done considerably less mileage than we would normally expect so there is dispensation to continue operating them until replacements arrive.

Will there be a launch event of sorts? It's certainly a momentous occasion for the region.

Yes, there is a stakeholder event next Tuesday and there will be public events in the coming weeks - dates and locations are being finalised.

 

[Llandudno]

Bit of an update following several posts from other users on here:

Yutongs - likely into service mid-May now. The buses are ready and the physical infrastructure at the depot will be in place but there is a delay in turning the power on by the grid supplier.

Peak Sightseer - it’s 6 pvr this season, a significant expansion on last year’s successful season with lots of feedback incorporated into this season including slower running times, more connections from Chesterfield and Sheffield and new for this season a commentary on both routes.

The original route (now “Red Route”) is operating entirely commercially this year. Research showed it contributed over £500,000 to the local economy in generating new visitors who wouldn’t have otherwise visited locations along the route so it offered an exceptionally good return on last years investment by DfT and DCC. Hence this year they are funding the new “Blue” route for a season to improve accessibility across the National Park and particularly the many camp sites along the Hope Valley and giving public transport access to the ever popular Mam Tor.

We thought long and hard about fares, the £2 capped fare really isn’t for routes like this and many tourist routes are excluded and including them would drain the pot of available DfT funds far quicker. Stagecoach Gold is now the day ticket to use for Peak Sightseer, giving automatic access to all Stagecoach buses in Yorkshire and East Midlands.

Derbyshire Wayfarer is a ‘revenue lies where it falls’ reimbursement ticket so no revenue apportionment based on usage not sales so we would effectively be carrying people for free who’d arrived in the area on another operators service. That is not a financially viable proposition. If Wayfarer reimbursement changes in the future then we’ll reconsider the position. In the meantime Wayfarer users get a discount on Peak Sightseer.

Finally on fleet, last years buses 18367, 15718 and 15719 all return. Joined this year by 16943 (which is ours now) and newly converted 15717 both of which are in Peak Sightseer livery. We’ll also be borrowing 3 open toppers from our colleagues in the South West for the season (swapped for 3 E200’s) as they need less open tops this season.

Longer term we have our eyes on several buses to convert next winter although the Manchester tree victim we recently acquired won’t be one of them - the damage is far more extensive than initially thought so it will be for spares then scrap.

Finally on the fleet front, we’ll be placing an order for 57 electric buses for Chesterfield later this year, we have an order in for 12 new National Express coaches and we have some potentially big cascades for the end of 2024 which will standardise the fleet.

Thanks for the update, mk1979.

Great to see that the original Red Route is now entirely commercial and not requiring any subsidy, hopefully the innovative Blue Route will prove popular and stand up commercially in its own right next summer!

Pleased to see some innovation on the X17 Service with a couple of off peak journeys diverting off the A632 to serve the excellent Matlock Farm Park tourist attraction. However, only passengers travelling from the Sheffield/Chesterfield direction will be able to make use of it, as far as I can see from the Derbyshire CC website there are no return journey opportunities from Wirksworth OR Matlock town centre to the Farm Park. There are buses to the farm but no return - is this correct?