Standedge Tunnel

[PhilipW]

Out of interest what state are the current disused bores of Standege Tunnel in at the moment and how often are they checked

Enclosed is a quote from Wikipedia on the tunnels. I know Wikipedia is not always 100% accurate, but in this case I have no reason to beieve that this is not true.

"Today only the 1894 rail tunnel is still used for rail traffic, although all three rail tunnels are still maintained. The 1848 tunnel is used to provide an emergency escape route for the other tunnels, and has been made accessible to road vehicles such as fire engines and ambulances".

Presumably for the re-opening proposal to appear in the Northern Hub document, high level checks would have been made.

The whole Wikipedia section on the Standedge tunnels (rail and canal) is interesting reading and explains the layout and history well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standedge_Tunnels

Good stuff

 

[neonison]

One of the single bores is still used by British Waterways to provide emergency cover for boaters.

"Since March 30th 2009, boats have been allowed to pass through Standedge Tunnel under their own power. (Previous to that they were towed through in convoy by an electric tug.)

Passage will take place on three days a week - Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Three boats will be allowed into the tunnel each day, at 45 minute intervals to prevent boaters being affected by the diesel fumes of other boats.

Each boat will carry a British Waterways "chaperone", a qualified tunnel pilot who will supervise the passage and offer advice. The pilot would be able to steer the boat through tricky sections if the boater wished but the boater may steer the boat the whole way if preferred.

A new and improved communications system, which will allow the BW "chaperones" to stay in constant contact with the office base, is not yet available. Until this is in place, the boat will pause at each adit (cross-passage through to the old railway tunnel) so that the BW pilot can call the base via the phone system, so that the tunnel controller knows where each boat is. A back-up van will be stationed near the middle of the tunnel in order to be able to respond if an emergency arises."

Taken from: http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/huddersfield/standedge7.htm


Perhaps a "leaky feeder" providing radio or mobile 'phone signals throughout the canal tunnel could be accommodated in the OLE budget?

 

[PhilipW]

Great photo of the Marsden portals taken in pre-Beeching days when all three tunnels were in use, showing a Leeds bound train emerging from the 1848 tunnel.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/3743109358/in/set-72157620870377203

From all I can read there seems to be no unsurmountable technical reason why all three tunnels cannot be brought into use and all electrified. Obviously nothing comes cheap nowadayas but it is possible. I hope so.

 

[Nym]

To get the best use out of all four IMO though we'd need four track between Stalybridge and Huddersfeild, including the Micklehurst Loop being re-instated.

Back of fag packet calculations work out for me that it would allow 4tph fast over the pair 2tph stoppers on each route and 2tph freight without even breaking into a sweat...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To get the best use out of all four IMO though we'd need four track between Stalybridge and Huddersfeild, including the Micklehurst Loop being re-instated.

Would this rule out the rebuilding of the former four-platform station at Diggle?

 

[Nym]

No, it would include it as an interchange, only 2tph stoppers would be continuing to Huddersfeild in my plans, some of these would terminate at Diggle, that would also include loops and some grade seperation for fast services. I would also be re-opening more stations on the Micklehurst Loop and possibly the mainline, there is a market there for travel into Manchester, Leeds and Huddersfeild, lets abuse it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would also be re-opening more stations on the Micklehurst Loop and possibly the mainline, there is a market there for travel into Manchester, Leeds and Huddersfeild, lets abuse it!

The only major structural problem would be the rebuilding of the sixteen arch blue engineering brick viaduct in the Greenfield area that was demolished in 1975. We discussed this problem when a similar thread was running about seven months ago and I wonder have you had time to consider the costs of rebuilding this viaduct?

 

[phill.d]

Hi guys!

I've just noticed a few links coming from this site to one of my Standedge photos. I thought I'd add a little info to what I know about the tunnels.

I've walked through the two disused bores, and they are in perfect order, very dry, and structurally sound inside. The only defect in the tunnel is some bulging off the walls and roof in the short span of tunnel seen below.

The tunnels have been well maintained over the year unlike a lot of disused tunnels, you can see road vehicles for maintenance work travel through frequently. Some disused tunnels receive a very basic maintenance and inspection routine, while a few like Gildersome tunnel seem to have abandoned as beyond repair.

The disused bores are also access for emergency services should an accident happen inside the tunnel

From what I've read this strengthening cage would have to be moved to allow trains enough clearance to pass, I'm not sure how it was said it could be strengthened without the cage, but the report I read said it could be fixed fairly easily.

The tunnel complex is certainly interesting down there, lots of connecting side passages between the three rail tunnels, and the canal tunnel. There is even a few platelayer's snap bothy's complete with fireplace.

The tunnel was used for wind pressure experiments regarding long tunnels and trains moving inside, I think this was part to do with the Channel tunnel before it was built. Some air shafts were sealed up, and I can vouch the air, vortex pressure, and atmosphere can play some very funny tricks whilst down there, the wind effect and noise is something to experience.

The full set of photos inside the tunnel can be seen here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/sets/72157620870377203/detail/

They give you a good idea what it's like in that otherwise hidden world

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Out of interest what state are the current disused bores of Standedge Tunnel in at the moment and how often are they checked

About seven months ago, a similar thread was running and in answer to a similar question, PinzaC55 made a posting to say that one of the two disused tunnels has suffered so badly from subsidence that a steel girder frame had to be installed to ensure that the existing tunnel wall would not spread any further. There was the matter of tunnel relining also discussed if this frame were to be removed and structural works effected.

 

[Nym]

The only major structural problem would be the rebuilding of the sixteen arch blue engineering brick viaduct in the Greenfield area that was demolished in 1975. We discussed this problem when a similar thread was running about seven months ago and I wonder have you had time to consider the costs of rebuilding this viaduct?

If it's the viaduict I think I've found on google earth (no traces on google searches) then it has a relatively steep gradient either side, so if you don't mind an ugly structure, a dual support pre-tensioned concrete prasmatically supported bridge would work fine, it could be faciaed to look nice on the supports, but with a basic construction like that, it isn't that expensive.

Pre tensioned concrete with steel supports btw, think of a standard 'motorway bridge'

 

[boing_uk]

Add Content

 

[daikilo]

Hi guys!

I've just noticed a few links coming from this site to one of my Standedge photos. I thought I'd add a little info to what I know about the tunnels.

I've walked through the two disused bores, and they are in perfect order, very dry, and structurally sound inside. The only defect in the tunnel is some bulging off the walls and roof in the short span of tunnel seen below.

The tunnels have been well maintained over the year unlike a lot of disused tunnels, you can see road vehicles for maintenance work travel through frequently. Some disused tunnels receive a very basic maintenance and inspection routine, while a few like Gildersome tunnel seem to have abandoned as beyond repair.

The disused bores are also access for emergency services should an accident happen inside the tunnel

From what I've read this strengthening cage would have to be moved to allow trains enough clearance to pass, I'm not sure how it was said it could be strengthened without the cage, but the report I read said it could be fixed fairly easily.

The tunnel complex is certainly interesting down there, lots of connecting side passages between the three rail tunnels, and the canal tunnel. There is even a few platelayer's snap bothy's complete with fireplace.

The tunnel was used for wind pressure experiments regarding long tunnels and trains moving inside, I think this was part to do with the Channel tunnel before it was built. Some air shafts were sealed up, and I can vouch the air, vortex pressure, and atmosphere can play some very funny tricks whilst down there, the wind effect and noise is something to experience.

The full set of photos inside the tunnel can be seen here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/sets/72157620870377203/detail/

They give you a good idea what it's like in that otherwise hidden world

I watched yr linked report in an armchair with the light switched off (after a few photos). Absolutely brilliant documentary. Many, many thanks.

 

[neonison]

The only major structural problem would be the rebuilding of the sixteen arch blue engineering brick viaduct in the Greenfield area that was demolished in 1975. We discussed this problem when a similar thread was running about seven months ago and I wonder have you had time to consider the costs of rebuilding this viaduct?

Get real please!

Two tunnels to re-excavate at Ryefields, Saddleworth and Cocker Hill, Stalybridge.
Major viaduct at Greenfield, slap bang in the middle of Saddleworth conservation area where everything has to be stone built and "in keeping" (Though Tesco got away with it!)
Major viaduct across river, canal and Knowl St in Stalybridge.

Demolition of 9 industrial premises, ~40 houses and newly built leisure centre in Uppermill.

Reinstatement of 5/6 smaller road bridges, numerous culverts etc.

Contrariwise Huddersfield to Marsden is much better placed. Some slewing of track, removal of location cabinets and Slaithwaite station.

It might be cheaper to reopen Woodhead.

 

[Nym]

Well, that is an idea, if you can kick freight off the route then it should be less issue fitting in the passenger services, send all freight via Penistone and Dinting... As well as some faster services to York maybe?

 

[185]

Reopening Diggle Station should be a priority. One of GMPTE's senior officers raised it in 1997 when I was there but the muttering old stooges threw it out.

It has a large catchment of nearby housing developments and towns and Greenfield is suffering from capacity issues with car parking and even peak time platform space.

The station if opened should be built with a view to eventual 4-tracking, but the trackbed could be used in the meantime as a temporary car park for park & ride.

 

[Nym]

And since Diggle has a reasonable amount of space, it could include fast through lines where stoppers could be overtaken by fasts while in the platform, or perhaps even terminating some services at Diggle...

 

[185]

Stands to reason to terminate some services at Diggle.

The Stalybridge (bay) terminators could be extended through to there, thus easing the overcrowding, makes sense as it is the last place the train would stop in our county and first place the stoppers heading to Manchester would begin to get busy.

Would also eliminate one of the two disruptory moves outside Stalybridge box (crossing over).

 

[Nym]

Unless they remodel stalybridge, a lot...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Get real please! Two tunnels to re-excavate at Ryefields, Saddleworth and Cocker Hill, Stalybridge. Major viaduct at Greenfield, slap bang in the middle of Saddleworth conservation area where everything has to be stone built and "in keeping" (Though Tesco got away with it!)

If you read what the point that I was making, you would see that I was referring to a thread discussion in the early summer with Nym in response to certain specific works, one of which was the sixteen arch viaduct in Greenfield that was demolished in 1975 (as stated in your quote above) which when built, was constructed using facings of blue engineering brickwork, which was commonly used in those days of construction.

I am well aware of all the problems that would ensue concerning the other matters including the houses, hall, industrial units, that you make reference to, but my posting was specific to the viaduct replacement as a major structural work of construction and not as part of a general view of all other matters that obviously would need to be addressed.

I am old enough, at 66, to remember many things railway-wise that used to be operational in this area, such as operational railway stations at Saddleworth and Diggle.

 

[Viscount702]

Unless they remodel stalybridge, a lot...

I think it is due for some remodelling this year and two new platforms

 

[Nym]

It is indeed, on the Victoria side, if they do the approaches properly and add in some centre roads, (then an independent track to Guide Bridge to to use the current bay) then you can probably shove enough through 2 track to the tunnels.

Would involve: Stopper arrives (for Huddersfeild) sits in the up platform, fast overtakes on the through roads, stopper leaves immediately behind it, same deal for freight. Stoppers could come either from Piccadilly or Victoria, if it where 2tph Semi Fast I get the feeling they where going into Piccadilly, if this where the case then it could be 'getting out the way with the least conflict;' once the stopper has pulled into the platform from Diggle, it can have it's route to Piccadilly set, and sod off at it's own leisure, the fast route through can be set and interlocked as soon as the stopper has cleared points and overlap.

If stoppers are running to Victoria it's much the same game really, set the timetable to overtake at Stalybridge, then if any services do run down to Piccadilly, they can terminate in the current bay.

Although I get the feeling that capacity at Stalyrbidge toward victoria will be wanted to terminate services from the West of Victoria, so running any semi-fasts into Piccadilly not only links up Tameside nicely if it calls at Guide Bridge, it would also retain the links for Stalybridge with piccadilly, and allow 4tph to be pushed through Victoria to Stalybridge flighted with the fast services with plenty of headway, or even up to 8tph with 2tph stoppers between each 1tph fast, but then you're overlimit on what the two additional platforms can take, so I think that 4tph slow to Stalybridge is more realistic.

So...

Stoppers from Victoria terminate in re-newed northern bays 4tph, proberbly 2tph Liverpool and 2tph somwhere else, unless Exchange platforms appear for Victoria, then it will be services off Windsor Bridge (Bolton & Atherton) with services off Chat Moss terminating in the bays at Exchange.
Fast services do not call at Stalybridge, use the fast centre roads, timetabled to overtake semi fasts, freight or slows AT Stalybridge.
Slow/Semi Fasts run from the current through platforms at Stalybridge, the conflicting movement comes in where you have to cross the fasts from Guide Bridge into Stalybridge heading toward Diggle, but thats 2tph conflicts in a 12min gap each way, on entry, so there is not much issue with the stopper waiting for a fast to go one way, then getting into the platform, waiting for the fast to overtake, then leaving.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst appeciating the many "wish lists" of our forum members, since the electrification announcement was made, where can a co-ordinated station and line information document that reflects all the current proposals be obtained? I appeciate that RUS documentation may well need amendments to allow for the current new proposals. Have any new station re-openings been mooted between Manchester City Centre and the Standedge tunnel?

 

[175001]

I think it is due for some remodelling this year and two new platforms

I believe it will take place at the same time that Staly box will close in May.

 

[MarkAshmore]

Stands to reason to terminate some services at Diggle.

The Stalybridge (bay) terminators could be extended through to there, thus easing the overcrowding, makes sense as it is the last place the train would stop in our county and first place the stoppers heading to Manchester would begin to get busy.

Would also eliminate one of the two disruptory moves outside Stalybridge box (crossing over).

Issues for local RUG include that Greenfield and Mossley are two of the busiest stations in Gtr Manchester that have just an hourly service. There is pent up demand there if the service was improved.
Can a half-hourly stopping service be timetabled without opening the two bores?
Also current proposals mean that in future no trains from Ashton would go beyond Stalybridge so cutting off Greenfield and Mossley from Ashton.
I think one of the old RUSs did hint at the possibility of using the trackbed of the Micklehurst loop as far as Uppermill from about 2025/30 to relieve pressure on the main line.
The proposal to have both semi-fasts going to Piccadilly when Victoria is now more central for shopping and leisure is not too popular either.

 

[Viscount702]

I believe it will take place at the same time that Staly box will close in May.

Do we know for certain what is being done when the signal work is undertaken

a report on this forum indicated

"There will be a new bay platform 5 which will only be accesible to/from the Ashton direction. Platform 1 becomes Platform 4 in the Huddersfield direction. A new bi-directional line will be Platform 3 which is currently Platform 2. The current bay Platform 3 becomes Platform 2. A new Platform 1 will have a bi-directional line running through where the current goods line sit. "

In addition there will be changes to the track layout and some new crossovers on the Victoria side. It would be nice to know how it will all look when it is finished. One hopes that it takes into account that electrification is coming.

 

[MarkAshmore]

Do we know for certain what is being done when the signal work is undertaken

a report on this forum indicated

"There will be a new bay platform 5 which will only be accesible to/from the Ashton direction. Platform 1 becomes Platform 4 in the Huddersfield direction. A new bi-directional line will be Platform 3 which is currently Platform 2. The current bay Platform 3 becomes Platform 2. A new Platform 1 will have a bi-directional line running through where the current goods line sit. "

In addition there will be changes to the track layout and some new crossovers on the Victoria side. It would be nice to know how it will all look when it is finished. One hopes that it takes into account that electrification is coming.

I wish I could make more sense of the above layout.
In particular which trains would go via which platforms?
The suggestion seems to be that only Platform 4 would not be bi-directional.
It looks like the four proposed expresses from Victoria per hour in each direction would race through platforms 4 & 3. while the shuttle via Ashton will go into the new bay platform five.
This leaves the two semi-fasts from Piccadilly via Guide Bridge to stop on platforms 3 & 1.
So why is not just platform 3 bi-directional?
Would Platform 4 only be used in the peak?
Would Platform 2 ever be used apart from the weekly Stockport Ghost train?
On the other hand if just Platform 1 was used bi-directionally for the semi-fasts to and from Piccadilly this would stop them getting in the way of the expresses the expresses.
And as for how the extra peak services will fit in I doubt anyone yet knows!
I can't make sense of it all, can anyone explain it to me?

 

[table38]

Here's my best guess...

Terminating trains from Victoria will use 5, and any from Piccadilly will use 2 to avoid conflicting moves. Fast trains will be able to pass stopping trains.

I assume the second freight loop will be removed as it isn't mentioned.

 

[Viscount702]

Here's my best guess...

Terminating trains from Victoria will use 5, and any from Piccadilly will use 2 to avoid conflicting moves. Fast trains will be able to pass stopping trains.

I assume the second freight loop will be removed as it isn't mentioned.

I think based on what had previously been said and reported by me earlier your explanation and second sketch fits with my understanding of the position. Unfortunately although we know signalling work is to be carried out and new platforms are to be provided there has been nothing reported to show precisely what is being done and how it will all look at the end of the day. I am particularly interested in the track layout to the west. I think the position will be as set out above but was hoping for something slightly better so as to avoid (as far as possible) on the west side of the station conflicts between the Guide Bridge and Ashton lines

 

[table38]

Oops I missed a trailing crossover off the "now" diagram

Plus I think the crossing into Platform 3 is a double-slip.

 

[MarkAshmore]

I heard today it is due to shut for 14 weeks next year does anyone know any details such as dates and how how services will be arranged.

The gent who told me didn't think it was part of electrification work but if it is, mods please feel free to move this into the existing thread.

This evening Weds 11/1/12 Mark Barker of Northern Rail talking to the local RUG said that there would be a complete blockade at Stalybridge later this year from October 27th to November 4th inclusive as part of the station layout remodelling.