Standing passengers on registered express services

[Trainman40083]

What is the position with regard to standing passengers on notified express services, that use dual carriageways (but not motorways)? Where I live, there is a joint service, where one operator allows it and the other does not.. Another express service uses single deckers to cover for unavailable coaches.

 

[JKP]

I assume that by notified you mean registered as a local bus service even though there are only limited stopping places.

I would suggest that standing passengers can be carried subject to the vehicle being certified to do so. If it is a coach that is used, no standees are normally permitted.

There are many places in the UK where buses travel on dual carriageways so this situation is not unusual.

 

[RT4038]

I assume that by notified you mean registered as a local bus service even though there are only limited stopping places.

I would suggest that standing passengers can be carried subject to the vehicle being certified to do so. If it is a coach that is used, no standees are normally permitted.

There are many places in the UK where buses travel on dual carriageways so this situation is not unusual.

It is not the type of service or the type of road that determines whether standing passengers can be conveyed, it is the vehicle certification. Coaches are not normally certified for standing passengers (mostly due to lack of grab rails and floor to ceiling height), and most operators of such vehicles wouldn't want it anyway.

An individual operator is at liberty to decline standing passengers on vehicles which are certified for them, if they so wish . Sometimes (in niche circumstances) Insurers demand no or restricted standing too, regardless of the certification.

 

[TUC]

I do remember being told by a driver hat my child could not sit in the front seat for the X10 Middlesbrough-Newcastle service because it was registered as an express. Part of me got it, but the other part of me wondered what was inherently different in safety terms to a local bus service that uses a high speed dual carriageway for part of its route?

 

[dodecahedron67]

I do remember being told by a driver hat my child could not sit in the front seat for the X10 Middlesbrough-Newcastle service because it was registered as an express. Part of me got it, but the other part of me wondered what was inherently different in safety terms to a local bus service that uses a high speed dual carriageway for part of its route?

That’s rubbish frankly. More likely the driver didn’t want anyone sat in that seat

 

[Titfield]

I do remember being told by a driver hat my child could not sit in the front seat for the X10 Middlesbrough-Newcastle service because it was registered as an express. Part of me got it, but the other part of me wondered what was inherently different in safety terms to a local bus service that uses a high speed dual carriageway for part of its route?

Many drivers dont like having a passenger in the front row on the nearside partly because thats where they like to put their own bag etc and also because of the potential for distraction.

Unless the rules have changed, it was a legal requirement to display a notice inside the vehicle stating the maximum number of seated passengers and "standees" permitted on the vehicle. If no standing passengers were permitted then the vehicle displayed would be a zero.

 

[RT4038]

That’s rubbish frankly. More likely the driver didn’t want anyone sat in that seat

Not necessarily rubbish. Not sure of the exact rules without some research, but if the vehicle has seat belts then children shouldn't be in front seats without an appropriate seat. (This I think is because those belts don't restrain small people as effectively).

 

[Titfield]

Not necessarily rubbish. Not sure of the exact rules without some research, but if the vehicle has seat belts then children shouldn't be in front seats without an appropriate seat. (This I think is because those belts don't restrain small people as effectively).

Yes that rings a bell with me but I cant put my hand on the exact legislation. I have had a quick look online but cant find it quoted exactly.

 

[K4016td]

Back in the day when I used to regularly commute on the First's X74 between Slough and High Wycombe which uses M40 to avoid Beconsfield town centre some drivers would tell the standees to take a seat if they were available for the the motorway section of the route but I don't think this was a rule as some drivers didn't do anything about it even when there were clearly seats avaliable and people were standing. I think it might be up to interpretation by an actual company as their policy or even by individual drivers themselves.

 

[roadierway77]

I don't believe there's any rules or regulations on standing asides from whether the vehicle is rated for standing or not. I posted a thread a couple of years ago with a similar question. If the vehicle is rated for standees, then standing is allowed regardless of speed or road type. Stagecoach East Scotland will regularly put single and double deckers on their express services that use the A90 and Forth Road Bridge, both dual carriageways, and there'll usually be plenty of people standing if it's busy. Tolerance for standees at speed on express services varies by operator though, some flat out don't allow it, others will only allow it only on vehicles rated for standees (usually vehicles that aren't coaches). Even then, I have on rare occasions witnessed people standing on coaches - though these only occurred for short distances at lower speeds.

 

[richw]

The simple answer is it depends on the vehicles certification. Nothing to do with express route or not

 

[mb88]

I’ve often seen Stagecoach East Scotland vehicles displaying ‘Bus Full’ on their Edinburgh express services where a bus is used in lieu of a coach where every seat is occupied but no one is standing. Presumably company policy relating to these services using a motorway? Often wondered this.

 

[MotCO]

I recall standees on an RP AEC Reliance Green Line 'coach', but can't recall whether it was classified as a bus with standees or as a coach. It was classified as DP45F

 

[Tetchytyke]

The legal position is that a bus can carry standees on motorways if it is certified as being allowed to carry standees. Most coaches aren’t certified to carry standees, although the Plaxtons Arriva Northumbria for the 685 had were.

Company policy may differ.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I’ve often seen Stagecoach East Scotland vehicles displaying ‘Bus Full’ on their Edinburgh express services where a bus is used in lieu of a coach where every seat is occupied but no one is standing. Presumably company policy relating to these services using a motorway? Often wondered this.

I've seen them displaying it on a coach with seats available heading into Edinburgh so I wonder if they do that when running late to avoid having to stop to pick up on the way in to Edinburgh.

 

[overthewater]

I’ve often seen Stagecoach East Scotland vehicles displaying ‘Bus Full’ on their Edinburgh express services where a bus is used in lieu of a coach where every seat is occupied but no one is standing. Presumably company policy relating to these services using a motorway? Often wondered this.

It depends on the depot, it's not company policy nor east Scotland policy. Your find it more with Aberhill drivers. D/line drivers do it all the time especial on 747 and X51 both of which actually operate on motorways. If the Ferrytoll inspector comes out he tends to over rule the drivers on busy days.

 

[Spsf3232]

It simply comes down to what the capacity of the bus is. They will display seating and standing capacity and if standing is allowed then it doesn't matter what road it's on. It's a common myth that you can't have standing passengers on a motorway.

Coaches are usually 0 standing with a few exceptions where grab rails are fitted to allow it.

 

[Teds]

It simply comes down to what the capacity of the bus is. They will display seating and standing capacity and if standing is allowed then it doesn't matter what road it's on. It's a common myth that you can't have standing passengers on a motorway.

Coaches are usually 0 standing with a few exceptions where grab rails are fitted to allow it.

Bedford depot of Stagecoach East started to ban standing passengers on the X5 although that now has standard E400 MMCs (used to be coaches).
There is a related item from the inquest in the death of the driver and a passenger on a First Eastern Counties Excel service. This route has high-spec Scania deckers. I think the last tranch of vehicles (also deckers) for the route did have seat belts - and almost none of the passengers seemed to wear them. The route does have quite long stretches of A road dual carriageways although the collision occured on a single carriageway section A47. I am happy to be corrected on the detail.

Coroner raises seatbelt concerns over A47 bus crash

A coroner is asking the Department for Transport to take action "to prevent future deaths".

www.bbc.co.uk

A coroner has said there is an "obvious risk" to passengers if seatbelts are not provided on cross-country bus routes, following a fatal accident in 2018.
Two men were killed when a bus and lorry collided on the A47 near Wisbech St Mary in Cambridgeshire on 26 June that year.
Coroner Simon Milburn has asked the government to take action to "prevent future deaths" as part of a report published this week.
The Department for Transport (DfT) pointed out that seatbelts were required on all-seater buses.
Bus driver Michael Elcombe, who was 45 and from Swaffham in Norfolk, and top-deck passenger Brian Chapman, 76, from Kettering in Northamptonshire, were both killed in the incident.
They were on the First Eastern Counties bus travelling between Peterborough and Norwich - a journey of about 80 miles (129km).
Mr Milburn said the vehicle was not fitted with seatbelts.
Buses that are designed to carry standing passengers, and for driving in urban areas, are not mandated to provide them.
The coroner pointed out that while the bus stopped off at about "five to six" urban centres, the majority of the route was rural and using major A roads.
The vehicle was moving at 53mph (85km/h) at the time of the crash.
In his prevention of future deaths report, external, Mr Milburn said there was no evidence either death would have been prevented by seatbelts.
However, he said: "I am concerned where buses are undertaking journeys such as this through predominantly rural locations and subject to the national speed limit without seatbelts being required, there is an obvious risk of death to passengers if collisions occur, particularly at high speed.
First Bus refused to comment.
A DfT spokesperson said: “We offer our sincere condolences to Mr Chapman’s family and friends.
“While travelling by bus and coach is one of the safest modes of transport, we are committed to improving the safety for all bus passengers.
“Since 2001, seatbelts have been required in all new buses with the exemption of those that are designed to carry standing passengers and typically operate at slower speeds on urban routes.”
The DfT said it wrote to the coroner previously, explaining that it thought the current regulations for seatbelts on buses were appropriate.

 

[Trainman40083]

Bedford depot of Stagecoach East started to ban standing passengers on the X5 although that now has standard E400 MMCs (used to be coaches).
There is a related item from the inquest in the death of the driver and a passenger on a First Eastern Counties Excel service. This route has high-spec Scania deckers. I think the last tranch of vehicles (also deckers) for the route did have seat belts - and almost none of the passengers seemed to wear them. The route does have quite long stretches of A road dual carriageways although the collision occured on a single carriageway section A47. I am happy to be corrected on the detail.

Coroner raises seatbelt concerns over A47 bus crash

A coroner is asking the Department for Transport to take action "to prevent future deaths".

www.bbc.co.uk

You could argue all car passengers have to (but some don't) wear seatbelts, so should bus passengers. But then should train passengers etc. Many of the seats belted buses I have been on, few wear them. Sure the driver has enough to worry about without demanding passengers wear them. After all, they put put them on, the bus driver off, then take them off again. In that respect, maybe the passengers have to take responsibility for their own safety. I wonder if all school children wear seat belts.