www.arrivabus.co.uk
Fully agree here, for me it's whether the inevitable additional paid time is worthwhile when I'm justifying the decision.To answer @Martin2012 question. the fact is that there are many reasons why operators decide to register or not, and that operators aren't always consistent. Some posters have a fascination for registering positioning mileage when, in reality, the question is this... Are we, as a business, realistically going to get any benefit from registering services, and will that benefit outweigh any negative impacts either from increased cost or reduced operational flexibility?"
To use an example to highlight this, I'll use the Arriva X26/X27 from Darlington to Catterick GarrisonArriva Bus
The service was historically operated by a depot in Richmond with main flows from that area to the larger town of Darlington. Operations are now at Arriva's Darlington depot at Faverdale Industrial Estate, near the A1. Five vehicles operated the route on a 30 min headway. In the morning, what happens is:
So in this example, you can see that Arriva has taken a nuanced, sensible approach. They've registered one additional journey westbound but to register all of them would simply incur more cost and for no benefit.
- Two vehicles run empty into Darlington town centre to operate 0620 and 0655 NOTE: the 0620 is earlier than when Richmond depot ran the route so Arriva are running one additional dead journey in service
- Three buses run out dead to Catterick or Colburn. One forms the 0657 from Catterick to Darlington and I reckon it runs dead at about 0620 from the depot. Why not run that in service rather than dead from Darlington depot? The options are:
- Run it as a proper addition to the timetable. That would be 0600 from Darlington town hall, so probably leaving Faverdale depot at 0545. Is there much market for an earlier bus only 20 mins ahead of the 0620? And you're paying a driver for an extra 35 mins pay plus adding on an additional mile or two. So even looking at the marginal cost, it's an extra £20 per day for little or no benefit so why do it?
- The other option is to register what it does now and run it in service from Faverdale express to Catterick. That's straight down the A1 so very few opportunities to get passengers. In that case, they run it (and the other two) dead.
Some will say "ah, but even if you get one or two extra passengers...." - the reality is often that placement journeys reflect atypical movements and at odd times of the day (early morning, late evening) and are contrary to the main passenger flows. That make sense?
That's just bonkers! Can they not out-station it somewhere with an obliging driver who lives near Newtown, or sub-contract that diagram to a Newtown based operator?
They used to have a longstanding outstation at Bishops Meadow in Brecon with a fuel point IIRC. However, the owners wanted to develop the place and Stagecoach were unable to find an alternative location. However, it does seem that there is a crew room at Brecon and so they might be operating with a defined Brecon rota - would need someone in the know to advise. In that case, perhaps they are still looking for something suitable.
This isn't actually too dissimilar to how Stagecoach Yorkshire run the X17. The most frequent operating period is between 5:20 and 6:15 when four buses leave Chesterfield for Sheffield. While I very rarely leave the house that early I can't see there will be demand for that, especially when the actual 'peak' frequency is every 25 minutes out (and 30-35 minutes in the evening peak). They appear to be more positioning moves to get buses to Sheffield and Barnsley for the first journeys from there. Similarly there are a couple of extra Sunday morning and evening journeys which run very close to the usual hourly buses which are obviously positioning services.
I guess that they've taken the decision as they think the marginal cost of running in service IS justified by potential revenue, and I'd suggest, that the primary flow at that time is towards Sheffield?
I wasn't suggesting a complete imbalance but that it is weighted
They are not alone. Most MDs don't like sharing routes between depots.
That is again true. The faff factor/drivers hours considerations/extra costs won't justify it
The 36 is slightly curious. Running vehicles in service rather than dead to provide a service from the Harrogate 'burbs to Leeds makes quite a bit of sense. Wouldn't have though Ripon would be a similar draw but there you go.
I'd say it is, but conversely if there was enough traffic to justify 4 buses outwards in an hour then there would also be enough to justify better than one bus every 35 minutes in the evening peak back.
I can understand some of the concerns for one service that was being discussed, the 77 between Chesterfield and Worksop, as it's run by two different 'branches' of Stagecoach. However, both Barnsley and Chesterfield fall under Stagecoach Yorkshire and indeed their head office is in Barnsley, so it seems (to an outside observer) that a join operation of that sort should be easier to manage. Even if it meant buses staying overnight at the 'wrong' depot and drivers driving buses from the 'other' depot, surely they joint management should mean it can be controlled?
That's just a reflection that they have the buses in the morning that need to run short whilst the evenings just run through the cycle?
Without wanting to go into another thread's territory, the reasons for not doing so can be more than just as you mention. Could be a reflection of different contractual terms at different depots through to simply not wishing to training drivers on a multitude of routes?
I think that's pretty much where mention of this service came in - they appear to be running buses in service early rather than working them dead to Sheffield / Barnsley. The evening frequency is because they don't want to add an extra vehicle to maintain or enhance frequency and the heavier traffic doesn't allow the standard 30 minute frequency to be maintained.
Is it common for individual depots to have different contractual terms? Within a 'company' that is - as mentioned, these are both Stagecoach Yorkshire.
Remember that the origins of both depots are different. One was Chesterfield Transport and was then Stagecoach East Midland before transferring to Yorkshire. The other was Yorkshire Traction. Now, they may well have harmonised terms and conditions but in other firms, it has been an issue. However, we're drifting well off topic so best stop before we anger the mods.
Tanat are based miles away. Owens Travelmaster have a small depot in Newtown but even so, they don't run early normally and the other point would be for them to operate such a service, they would have to run dead back to Newtown so overall dead mileage wouldn't be any different, just that Owens Travelmaster would have more dead mileage and Stagecoach would have less.
Strange that sometimes they do it, sometimes they don't. And sometimes, the dead mileage trip is completely unrelated and different to the core service such as the Peak Sightseer dead mileage trips which run to/from Sheffield but the depot is in Chesterfield.
Saying they run from Sheffield is a little misleading. They don't go to the centre, they run through some of the suburbs, starting not very far along the A61 from Stonegravels. I believe not all of the open toppers are LEZ compliant so starting from the centre would add complication, especially when some also can't do the Blue route due to clearances.
The Blue which goes to Castleton is usually one of these, but the second one, which goes to Chatsworth, is normally one of the older vehicles. It runs Reds from then on, so it likely one of the buses which doesn't have clearance for the bridge on the Blue route.
Agreed. It's an interesting thing to try and I hope it works out well for them. It's just a very different way of covering what would normally be dead mileage, going quite far from what would be the dead mileage route.
I need to be careful how I phrase this to avoid upsetting someone, but one comment from last year was the lack of connectivity from their own services, which, coupled with the fact they don't accept passes, made it more difficult / expensive to use the route by public transport. This may be a response to that, although I'd also hope they'd consider working with operators who serve the area already to develop integrated ticketing.
There is a point where the juice ain't worth the squeeze. They may get BSOG anyway but is it because they don't care or simply that the buggeration and additional cost of running in service isn't worth it. For the 65/66 example I gave, they run one bus in service at 0647 ex Chesterfield. There is a bus that runs empty to Buxton at 0649 but that would mean running in service at 0500. That would clearly be ridiculous and, as @Teapot42 suggests, may have something to do with drivers hours.
I only said Tanat on account that Owens don't really do anything as intensive or extensive. Fair point.
They've done that to obviously try and tap into a different potential market in the Sheffield suburbs
I guess the point is that they aren't trying to sell the service between Lowedges and Baslow/Chatsworth. The point is to get people to Baslow, Chatsworth and beyond, not that bit of road between the Sheffield burbs and Baslow. Dronfield is a good point though.
If they were looking for a way to minimise dead mileage - and they almost certainly aren't - then about all that might be worthwhile would be running it from Brierlow Bar, starting at around 6:30. While there aren't many early services from there, for example for anyone who works in Buxton or who wants a train to Manchester, there is a 442 not much later than that so it would add some duplication.
The Blue that goes direct to Castleton from Lowedges might be a good sell though, it's faster than via Chatsworth and also covers quite a scenic route that you can't get otherwise from Chesterfield.
Think you answered it
You have the 0912 from Chesterfield that runs direct via Chatsworth for 1100 arrival. If you're talking about the 0848 from Lowedges (to arrive for 1000), I don't think it'll be much quicker if at all starting from Chesterfield.
I'd imagine the 24 will be carrying more fresh air! Last year, I got the first 25 west (0825 ex Taunton) and was surprised to have fellow passengers to Dulverton.
That issue with metroline dead running buses to and from Potters Bar especially after the 84 between new Barnet and Potters Bar was withdrawn is ridiculous. And the excuses about changing timetables is very poor too, especially given that metroline are quite happy to do garage runs on some other routes within London notably the 43 and 237.
I wonder whether this is the case for metrolines 237 White City to Hounslow Heath operated out of metrolines Brentford Garage. On the 237 all buses starting at Hounslow Heath in the morning on all days of the week, run in service from Brentford, with these short workings meanjng an earlier service start of 0444 vs 0524 for the first full route bus. All buses finishing at Hounslow Heath however run dead back to Brentford Bus Garage.
I'm not a mod, but found the detailed explanation fascinating
